As this discussion has moved way off the game to general history, over to that forum we go.
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In the Finnish area of operations? Barring a few German night interceptors over Helsinki later in the war, and Detachment Kuhlmey in the summer of 1944, not really, no.
Annexing territory as something the state on at least some level pursued was given up after the conclusion of the Treaty of Tartu in 1920 that ended the state of war between Finland and Soviet Russia, that had existed since the beginning of the Bolshevik-sponsored Red insurrection in 1918.
In 1918-20 various parts of East Karelia and Ingria expressed their desire to join Finland, with the counties of Repola and Porajärvi joining de facto, albeit not de jure, in 1918 and 1919 respectively. In 1864 Finland ceded the town of Siestarjoki on the Karelian Isthmus, a part of which had already been ceded earlier in 1842, pushing the border a bit north. In exchange the Tsar promised the Finns Petsamo, but this promise was never honoured. In 1920 Finland did finally get Petsamo, but only on the condition she ceded Repola and Porajärvi back to Russia. She also relinquished any claims or potential claims to other Finnic territories outside her borders, such as to the Republic of North Ingria, the Republic of East Karelia, and so on. As a consequence thousands of Finnics emigrated to Finland, 7-8k from Ingria (with some returning in the following years), probably some thousands from East Karelia, and later another 30k East Karelians after the failed East Karelian Uprising of 1921-22.
It's worth mentioning here that these uprisings against Russian rule from various Finnic ethnicities saw very little support from the Finnish state, due to the opposition of more moderate politicians. Instead what Finnish involvement there was, was comprised of expeditions of a few hundred volunteers at best. This however has been used by Russian propaganda as an example of how Finland as a state supposedly tried to take over East Karelia in 1918-22.
In any case, in exchange of these Finnish concessions, the Russians promised regional autonomy to the East Karelians and cultural autonomy to the Ingrians, but this promise was not honoured (the English Wiki page on North Ingria makes an unsourced claim that Ingria received cultural autonomy, but every reliable source I've read says she did not, and that this was an issue Finland noted several times in the 1920s). East Karelia received some cultural autonomy, but this was much less than was agreed to in the peace treaty and mainly, if not only, the result of the work of Finnish Reds who had fled there in 1918; the Russians themselves seemed to have very little interest in giving any autonomy to the Karelians. That cultural autonomy was then destroyed by Stalin in the 1930s.
Some elements in Finnish society still wanted to unify the country with certain territories of Finnic peoples outside her 1920 borders, but this played no part in state affairs. Ironically, these elements existed not just among nationalists, but among communists as well. In fact already in 1918 there was an idea among the bolsheviks and Finnish Reds to Sovietize Finland and join it with East Karelia as a combined Karelo-Finnish SSR within Soviet Russia (later officially renamed to the USSR). This plan was again attempted by Stalin in WW2.
In 1941-44 when Finland held most of East Karelia, there was a feeling among many Finns that "now we will take back what's ours, with interest", and "now we will finally free our East Karelian brothers", but again, this did not influence state affairs, or military for that matter. The positions held beyond the 1920 borders were military in nature first, and what ever other bonuses there might have come from holding them were of secondary importance. Indeed, unlike Germany and Romania, Finland never annexed any territory she did not hold before the war; only the 1920 borders were reinstated on the 6th of December, 1941, on Finnish Independence Day. East Karelia was instead administered through a military administration.
A sham deal not much unlike those that was offered to the Baltic States. The Baltic States accepted and still got couped and occupied. Stalin would've attempted the same in Finland either way. Had Finland accepted, she would've been in a much weaker position to resist than in November 1939. In any case I'm just repeating myself now, as I've already covered all this in my previous posts, here and here.
Wrong. Soviet losses agaist the Germans can be separated from the losses against Finland. Finnish air units were not mixed with German units, both fought their own battles. Locations of German air and antiair units is known, they did not have right to move around the country on their own. Finland has good wartime archives and comparing them with the (during Communist era secret) wartime Soviet unit archives puts the battles, victories and losses in right places and shows who did what. Also, it is exactly known how many planes Finland had, since Finland did not produce fighters (except a few experimentals), so the number of Finnish fighters was the number received as imports plus the number of captured enemy planes.
In terms of non-prototype production, Finland's aircraft production from the late 1930s to 1944 comprised of:
-Various trainers and such.
-45 Bristol Blenheim Mk. I and 10 Mk. IV bombers. License-built.
-39 Fokker C.X. liaison/light bombers. License-built.
-90 Fokker D.XXIs. License-built. 35 were equipped with the Bristol Mercury VIII (840hp) engine, the same engine the Blenheims used, making them slower than the Dutch-built versions. As the war progressed Mercury engines became unavailable for newer Fokker production, so the remaining 55 were built with an even weaker Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp Junior (825hp) engine instead.
-47 VL Myrsky II fighters. Domestic design. Due to quality issues started making it to squadrons as late as July-August 1944, with only 30 being received before the end of hostilities with Russia in September 1944.
However it is, like you said, known how many planes Finland had, and where and when.
I agree with the original matter of this thread. I'm glad to see Spain having more focus, it definitely deserves it due its historical position in the WWII era. In the meantime I'm very disappointed for still not having any focus considering Finland or the other Nordic Countries. Especially, Finland had much more importance in the 1930's and in the 1940's than HOI4 lets us assume - the Finnish case will stay as insignificant as long as not been noticed - shame on you, PDX.
Your claim is incorrect. Finland was capable to put a halt for the Soviet offensive phase in 1944 - as the only nation to stop the Red Army in the WWII. Finland achieved three (3) major defensive victories in the decisive battles in the summer of 1944 (Tali-Ihantala, Äyräpää-Vuosalmi and Ilomantsi). Only after these Finnish defensive victories the Soviets were ready to negotiate about the peace terms and abandon the clause of the unconditional surrender. Due the defensive victories Finland was capable to enter the negotiating table and "did not fall".
Edit: Focusing the defensive victories, the Finnish Army of 100 000 of men put a halt for the Soviet offensive phase of 500 000 of men.
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What about mobilization of Finish army in june 17 1941?
"Finland mobilised it's army on the 17 June in anticipation of German attack on Soviet Union or Soviet attack on Finland. But 22 June when Germans attacked, Finland declared neutrality, though German planes had refueled in Finnish airbases when they returned from bombing Leningrad and German troops were ready to attack Murmansk in the Arctic. Russians bombed many towns on 25 June , and president Ryti stated that Finland is at war again."
As I understand mobilization it is almost war... USSR clearly understood in june 22 that Finish army are mobilizated and will attack with chance around 99%.
"Finland mobilised it's army on the 17 June in anticipation of German attack on Soviet Union or Soviet attack on Finland. But 22 June when Germans attacked, Finland declared neutrality, though German planes had refueled in Finnish airbases when they returned from bombing Leningrad and German troops were ready to attack Murmansk in the Arctic. Russians bombed many towns on 25 June , and president Ryti stated that Finland is at war again."
As I understand mobilization it is almost war... USSR clearly understood in june 22 that Finish army are mobilizated and will attack with chance around 99%.
After the subversion attempts of the previous decade and the Soviet invasion of 1940...
Mobilising in itself does not mean a country is going to attack, it just means there is a serious threat of war. For instance Finland had also mobilised in October 1939, and Mannerheim suggested mobilisation circa summer-fall 1940 as well, due to the threat of another Russian invasion, though ultimately the government chose to not mobilise at the time as Germany was starting to take Finland under her protection.
Also:
Finland had no other choice in the matter anyway, Stalin had made sure of that.
EDIT: Also mind I remind you that Finnish troops remained in defensive positions until July-August 1941.
If Finland in WW2 truly was a bloodthirsty fascist ally of Hitler, like the country is often portrayed as in Russian state propaganda, Finnish troops would've crossed the border 22.6.1941, taken part in the attack on Leningrad and seized the Murmansk railroad line, cutting off the route through which most Allied lend-lease came in 1941-42. Actually who knows what might have happened if Leningrad fell to a joint Finno-German attack in 1941, enabling the German Army Group North to pursue its objective east to Tihvinä (Tikhvin), and then swing south to help Army Group Centre with taking Moscow.
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Make it 5, Romania and Bulgaria didn't fall either. They switched sides but so did Russia.
Everytime I hear someone complaining about this I immediatly assume they come from a big country. I don't know if that's the case for you, but I'll take a wild guess.
People from important countries like US, UK, France, Germany, Russia, Italy, Japan or countries that were formerly important like Turkey or Austria don't complain about this because their countries already have a lot of presence in movies, games, etc. It's people from minor countries that want more representation. Complaining about people who want more representation for their country while your country already has a lot of representation is just pure hypocrisy. Like a millionaire complaining that poor people want money.
I have also heard the more ignorant version "the minor countries are not represented in history because they didn't do anything great". I'm not pointing fingers at you for this one, but it's a common argument. The answer? Many minor countries have a lot of interesting events in their history, it's just that they don't get a lot of publicity because they come from minor nations. This is one extra reason why I love focus trees of minor nations, you get the perspective of Mexico or Netherlands, while almost everyone knows the perspective of the Soviet Union or the United States because they are the big boys.
So Finland as German ally secretly
mobilized army in june 17, 1941.
USSR mobilizеd army in june 22, 1941 in response of German aggression. USSR had high losses from attacks of German aviation so in order to resist it USSR started to fight enemies airfields everywhere, including Finish ones...
So my conclusion,
1) Finish elite was prepared for war as German allies, but though democratic procedures could not declare war openly. Understanding that it is only question of time for casus belli for both sides.
2) Clearly understanding Finish intentions USSR acted as it was in reality - Finland participating in aggression.
mobilized army in june 17, 1941.
USSR mobilizеd army in june 22, 1941 in response of German aggression. USSR had high losses from attacks of German aviation so in order to resist it USSR started to fight enemies airfields everywhere, including Finish ones...
So my conclusion,
1) Finish elite was prepared for war as German allies, but though democratic procedures could not declare war openly. Understanding that it is only question of time for casus belli for both sides.
2) Clearly understanding Finish intentions USSR acted as it was in reality - Finland participating in aggression.
They were occupied and their way of life destroyed with the installation of communism: they fell. The fact it happened primarily through political action and not military defeats, does not matter when the end result is the same.
Had Finland fallen, the country would've become either an SSR in the Soviet Union or a peoples' democracy in the Eastern Bloc, depending on when she got occupied (early in the war would've resulted in annexation). The country would be much poorer than she is now, a trait shared by all former Eastern Bloc nations; a consequence of communism. She would also have a very large Russian minority, especially in the case of direct annexation.
Instead as a consequence of victories on the battlefield and maintaining an undefeated military throughout all of WW2, the country remained a free and independent democracy with a free market economy, making her one of the most prosperous countries in the world today.
I'm by no means an expert on the Romanian and Bulgarian militaries, or the defensive details of the geography of their countries, but, and feel free to educate me on this, I'm under the impression that a Finnish-style successful military defence of either, let alone both countries was not possible: the front was too wide, the terrain comparatively friendly to large armoured attacks, and the motivation of the Romanian and Bulgarian militaries not exactly up to the task, nor was probably their equipment. A lack of modern equipment isn't everything, as the Finns had proven time and again, since that lack can be supplanted to some degree by motivation and geography, but if those too are lacking, then it's a recipe for defeat. If Romania held off for longer together with the Germans, like the Hungarians did post-pro-German coup, they would've likely still been crushed and the country occupied. Same with Bulgaria. The political leadership of those countries was fully aware of this, hence them exiting the war the way they did. It's a shame that didn't save their countries from communism.
But again, feel free to share your knowledge or thoughts on this, as I know you are well-read in Romanian history.
The VVS hit civilian targets on the 25th of June, not airfields. I already covered this, as have others.
As for the rest of your post, I suggest you read my posts over the past three pages, starting from at least this one.
Aviation always hit civilian targets. Even in modern time, for example, USA's support of assault of ISIL's capital.
As I remember posts before Russian aviation commander noted that targets were airfields and military ones. Of course that civilians were hit - it usual case in 1941-1945. For example, I noted recently new memory place for young girl in city Cheboksarry (670 km east from Moscow) that one person who was killed during bombing by German (Finish as allies?) aviation in summer 1941.
So Finish elite just used event for declaring war to USSR (increasing this event by propaganda). Mobilization of Finish army in june 17, 1941 showing that Finland started to prepare for aggression while USSR did not mobilise army till aggression.
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Order of Finish commander for aviation to attack USSR troops, territory, airfields (signed june 20, 1941):
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Russian point of view on Finish intensions:
Google translation
"April 1941 - the beginning of the recruitment of Finnish volunteers in the Waffen SS.
May 1941 - an exchange of military delegations between Germany and Finland took place. The Finnish military and political leadership was dedicated to the Barbarossa plan, and Suomi had a role to play in the German invasion.
On June 7, 1941, German troops arrived in Finland, intended to attack Murmansk from Finnish Lapland.
On June 10, 1941, Finnish troops began to advance to the border from places of permanent deployment.
On June 15, 1941, in northern Finland, the Commander-in-Chief Mannerheim subordinates the General Siilasvuo corps to the German command.
June 17, 1941 in Finland announced a general mobilization.
On June 18, 1941, Finnish aircraft are marked with the Luftwaffe identification marks on the Eastern Front.
On June 21, 1941, the evacuation of the Finnish population from the border areas begins.
On June 21, 1941, even before the invasion began, a group of Finnish special forces flew German planes to the Belomorkanal to blow up its floodgates.
On June 21, 1941, Finnish submarines receive orders to set minefields in the territorial waters of the USSR.
June 21, 1941 in Lahti, Turku and Oulu, beacons began to operate to aim German bombers at targets.
In the early hours of June 22, 1941, a squadron of German bombers, taking off from Koenigsberg, dropped magnetic mines on the Kronstadt raid. The navigator of the squadron is the captain of the Finnish Air Force. From Kronstadt, the Germans fly away for refueling in Utti. Even before the invasion, German planes used Finnish airfields Malmi (Helsinki) and Utti (west of Lappeenranta).
After such actions, talking about the neutrality of Finland is inappropriate. Finnish historians admit that in June the Finnish army at the border was clearly offensive. The war machine was oiled, loaded and cocked. The question was only who and when will be the first to press the red button."
Google translation
"April 1941 - the beginning of the recruitment of Finnish volunteers in the Waffen SS.
May 1941 - an exchange of military delegations between Germany and Finland took place. The Finnish military and political leadership was dedicated to the Barbarossa plan, and Suomi had a role to play in the German invasion.
On June 7, 1941, German troops arrived in Finland, intended to attack Murmansk from Finnish Lapland.
On June 10, 1941, Finnish troops began to advance to the border from places of permanent deployment.
On June 15, 1941, in northern Finland, the Commander-in-Chief Mannerheim subordinates the General Siilasvuo corps to the German command.
June 17, 1941 in Finland announced a general mobilization.
On June 18, 1941, Finnish aircraft are marked with the Luftwaffe identification marks on the Eastern Front.
On June 21, 1941, the evacuation of the Finnish population from the border areas begins.
On June 21, 1941, even before the invasion began, a group of Finnish special forces flew German planes to the Belomorkanal to blow up its floodgates.
On June 21, 1941, Finnish submarines receive orders to set minefields in the territorial waters of the USSR.
June 21, 1941 in Lahti, Turku and Oulu, beacons began to operate to aim German bombers at targets.
In the early hours of June 22, 1941, a squadron of German bombers, taking off from Koenigsberg, dropped magnetic mines on the Kronstadt raid. The navigator of the squadron is the captain of the Finnish Air Force. From Kronstadt, the Germans fly away for refueling in Utti. Even before the invasion, German planes used Finnish airfields Malmi (Helsinki) and Utti (west of Lappeenranta).
After such actions, talking about the neutrality of Finland is inappropriate. Finnish historians admit that in June the Finnish army at the border was clearly offensive. The war machine was oiled, loaded and cocked. The question was only who and when will be the first to press the red button."
Sigh. No airfields were even targeted 25.6. Only towns and cities.
Order of Finish commander for aviation to attack USSR troops, territory, airfields (signed june 20, 1941):
All this says is to cover Finnish troops, and what to do in the event that Finnish forces are on the defence, and what to do in the event they're on the offence. It is not an attack order.
You've obviously not read my posts, and this thread is just becoming me repeating myself over and over. Like I said, go read my posts from before in the thread, I linked the post to start from in my previous reply. Otherwise please stop reposting things I've already covered several times.
Can you find any order of RKKA (Worker-Peasant Red Army) with order to attack civilian targets? According communists ideology all working people has equal rights so there was not task to attack civilians.
"Hitlers come and go, and the people are German, and the German state remains." (Order of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR
February 23, 1942 Number 55).
Accroding text below Finish army ended concentration by evening 25.06.1941. So Russian aviation attacked same day.
May be it is difference in translation, but in Russian translation it has some essential items:
1. Finish army ended concentration by evening 25.06.1941.
2. Some land troops has defence task, but OTHER land troops has ONLY offensive task - "Main task of 7 Army Corps to seize Sortavala".
So let me guess if this order was received by soviet commander (Help to Red Finns) and he understands that Finish army will end concentration by evening 25.06.1941 with task to 7 Army Corps to seize Sortavala. So it is good decision to attack enemy before the end of his concentration.
Three days before Soviet commanders were attacked because they had order do not respond to provocations. Now millitary commanders took full power in all regions (War time) and were responcible for it. Many from them acted in aggerssive style with attacks and counter-attacks.
It is like order of Rokossovskiy to attack Germans by artillery and aviation before start of German offencive in july, 1943 near Kursk.
Finish army mobilised and concentrated by 25.06.1941. USSR started mobilisation 22.06.1941. So mobilisation of Soviet army only started and only way to effectively resisit of full scale Finish offensive was aviation.
So USSR didn't want and wasn't ready for war. Finish elite wanted war and it was prepared for war.
I read your posts above. My post repeats essential part of events described by you, but adds additional ones with comments of Russian historians plus original order for Finish aviation.
For example, I didn't see in your posts:
"
On June 10, 1941, Finnish troops began to advance to the border from places of permanent deployment.
On June 18, 1941, Finnish aircraft are marked with the Luftwaffe identification marks on the Eastern Front.
On June 21, 1941, the evacuation of the Finnish population from the border areas begins.
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Explain how it was "aggression" to try to reclaim their own lands that were taken in an invasion not one year earlier?
This shows a startling level of naivete. You really need to read up on basic Soviet history.
1. You cited no historians.
2. @Fulmen , an actual Finn, told you the original order doesn't say what you think it does. Google translate is notoriously unreliable.
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On the internet? Maybe, maybe not. I don't need to. This is not some conspiracy: the Russians bombing towns and cities throughout Southern Finland 25.6.1941 and not a single airfield, is a well-documented historical fact. I don't need to go find the paperwork for the order behind it. This is kind of like asking "how do you know the Germans invaded Poland 1.9.1939 if you don't have the exact OKW order for it?".
Are you implying the Russians didn't bomb Finnish towns and cities? They did so systematically during the entire duration of the state of war between Finland and Russia in WW2, starting 30.11.1939. They of course initially denied it, with their foreign minister Molotov claiming they are simply "dropping food to the starving Finnish workers", which actually gave the nickname "Molotov's bread baskets" to the cluster bombs the Russians were using, which in turn was soon accompanied by the nickname "Molotov's cocktail", for the bottles of a mixture of petrol, tar and alcohol that the Finns used against Russian tanks with great success, during the Winter War in particular.
I certainly hope that's not what you were implying, because that would be some really thick Stalinist propaganda that even most Russian communists since the 1950s have admitted is pure nonsense.
The paper notes that most transportation regarding concentration will be completed by the evening of the 8th day of the general mobilisation, that being the 25th of June.
It then describes how to proceed in a scenario of defence, and in one of offence, denoting which army corps were to do what. This includes, in the scenario of offence, general directions and points on where certain army corps were to advance, but gives no dates or times. It's a general guideline on what to do in different circumstances, not an attack order. An attack order would be "VII AK crosses the border at 6:00am on the 10th of August around XYZ location and advances towards Sortavala", for example. Finnish units remained in defensive positions until July-August, as I have stated for several times now. Only then did they assume an offensive concentration and actually attack.
Below is the location of military units (the striped blobs) in Finland 22.6.1941. I don't know how well you can tell from the map, but Finnish divisions weren't at the border, they were behind it, in some cases by dozens or even hundreds of kilometres, in defensive positions.
Normal procedures when war is expected to be possible. Happened in October 1939 as well, before the Winter War.
The "ammunition" in this comment is slightly more potent for your argument, but still doesn't negate anything I said before.
Finland knew war was likely, and that Russia would again be the enemy, and that this time Germany would be fighting alongside the Finns, hence the markings to avoid misidentification and friendly fire.
In any case, Finland knew that Russia, already based on Stalin's attempts at conquering the country throughout the Winter War and the Interim Peace that followed it, would almost certainly fire the first shots, which she then did, starting at 6:05am 22.6.1941. Even if by some miracle the Russian leadership chose not to start hostilities against Finland, which would've been the wiser choice and given them valuable time, Finland would've still probably ended up entering the war within weeks, forced by Germany (not that much of the country didn't already want to regain the territory Stalin had stolen from them in the last war and its immediate aftermath). I covered this in more detail in my previous posts.
Barring Germany winning WWI, or the Bolsheviks losing the Russian Civil War, there was never any way Finland could have avoided the Winter War and the subsequent Continuation War, unless she aligned herself with Germany in the 1930s, which is already so implausible it's pure HoI4-level fantasy, and even then there would've been an eventual Russo-Finnish war.
During the interwar period Finland was entirely committed to Nordic solidarity, a foreign policy that eventually failed, as when push came to shove, all the other Nordic countries really only looked after themselves, which to be fair to the Swedes, Norwegians and Danes, is not entirely unjustified considering how badly they had all neglected their defenses (as did Finland, though not as much).
To sum up the few different scenarios Finland could have found herself in based on key decisions she had to make in 1939-41:
1. Deny most of Stalin's 1939 demands = Winter War in November 1939, historical.
2. Accept Stalin's 1939 demands in full = "Winter" War in summer 1940, but in a much weaker position.
3. Accept German 1940 overtures = Continuation War in June 1941, historical.
4. Deny German 1940 overtures = Continuation War circa August 1940, alone and in a tremendously weaker position than in either war at any given time historically.
Stalin felt like in a besieged fortress. And there were reasons for this. Therefore, he deepened the borders at the expense of Poland and Finland.
- He said: "We are 50-100 years behind the advanced countries. We must run this distance ten years. Either we will do this or they will crush us," Joseph Stalin said at the first All-Union Conference of Workers of Socialist Industry on February 4, 1931.
- He said: "We are 50-100 years behind the advanced countries. We must run this distance ten years. Either we will do this or they will crush us," Joseph Stalin said at the first All-Union Conference of Workers of Socialist Industry on February 4, 1931.