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Chapter CXLIII: The Consequence of Conference
Chapter CXLIII: The Consequence of Conference.

Imperial Conferences spawned committees, councils and bureaus in much the same way the Stuarts spawned illegitimate children; frequently, vigorously and with precious little thought as to the consequences. There were some slight hopes that the London Economic Conference would break this trend, an Australian proposal to establish an Empire Agricultural Council was rejected when it was noted there was already an Agriculture sub-committee on the Imperial Economic Council as well as an Imperial Agricultural Bureaux. Sadly the ambitions of bureaucracy, and the enduring political value in being seen to 'do something' (even if nothing was ever actually done), were not so easily denied and the London Economic Conference would gift the Empire several new organisations before it finally concluded. In addition to the Imperial Trade Council discussed in the previous chapter there were new groups doing worthy work in quiet (such as the Brown Goods sub-committee, which would belatedly start work standardising plugs and such like across the Empire) and others that made a great show of achieving very little (the Fuel Board on the Imperial Shipping Committee mostly provided a new place for the Coal Lobby to complain about the continued existence of fuel oil). Our attention in this chapter is directed to the Capital Finance and Investment sub-committee of the Imperial Economic Council which, despite it's less than enthralling name and relatively short life, would produce some long lasting and unexpected results.

As with many things at the Conference the starting point had been a Dominion complaint about British policy, in this case it was their objections to the British government's Export Credit Guarantee Department's remit only covering projects that were, in fact, exports (i.e. outside the Empire). This was presented as a grave threat to Imperial unity, the spectacle of British guarantees and capital being poured into foreign projects, such as the Turkish Iron & Steel Works discussed previously, when schemes in the Dominions were crying out for funding would undermine the entire economic basis of the Empire. Moreover these funding problems were impacting the facilities being built for the Wellington Project, so this would have serious defence implications unless immediately rectified. The politicians recognised a difficult looking problem when they saw it and hurriedly kicked it down to the new sub-committee, at which point the British representatives got to work determining what the issue actually was as opposed to what was being complained about. It soon emerged that the large scale works for the Wellington Project were actually mostly proceeding on schedule and, being relatively 'safe' government projects, had secured commercial funding at reasonably low rates, certainly far below the rates that the ECGD charged for its projects. Further down the supply chain however things were not so rosy and it was the myriad of smaller suppliers who were struggling to establish themselves and obtain reasonable funding. The Dominions were also concerned that if these problems were occurring on such a high priority project then similar, or worse, issue were probably afflicting lower profile schemes.

e2ZEkwA.jpg

The crankshaft being lowered into the crankcase during construction of a Merlin engine. While the Australian government had grandly declared they wished to build the 'whole engine', as opposed to assembling kits of imported parts, the reality was proving far more challenging than they had imagined. Taking the parts in this picture, the Merlin crankshaft was made of a nickel-chrome-molybdenum steel alloy, which was shaped in a high capacity drop forge, perfectly balanced and then nitrogen hardened, while the crankcase itself was precision cast from high quality aero-grade aluminium. At this time there was no steel mill in Australia capable of producing the correct grade of steel and no aluminium refineries in the country at all (or indeed in the entire Southern Hemisphere). There were also no drop forges with the necessary capacity or any facilities for hardening the steel to the required strength. It was slowly dawning on Canberra that there was far, far more to this endeavour than just building a couple of modern factories and that London's preference for a more gradual approach might not have just been about trying to keep the work in Britain. It was quietly being discussed if allowing a small number of imported parts would be an acceptable compromise of Australia's grand aero-engineering industrialisation plans.

The Dominions depended upon foreign capital for most of their industrialisation, being too small (Australia) or still scarred by the Depression (Canada) to generate large amounts of investable funds themselves. In practice this meant British capital as the other options that would have been acceptable had no funds and those offering funds were politically unacceptable. While the British economy was recovering well there was a certain amount of capital available and the various City institutions were very good at herding it together and then sending it out into the wider world to earn a good return. These skills were in fact a large part of the problem, while a great deal of British capital was being invested in Australia, Canada and the wider Empire (formal and informal) it was going to the 'wrong' schemes. That is to say projects that would make the best returns for the investors and not those schemes that accorded with the plans of the various governments. As an example gold mining was a popular choice for the Empire focused investor, very large scale investment was ongoing throughout the 1930s in new and expanded mines in Western Australia, Northern Ontario, the Canadian North West Territories and much of East Africa. With so much of the world economy remaining on the gold standard, and with the 'Gold Fix' conveniently priced in Sterling in London, these investments were proving far lucrative than expected, even after the costs of the additional infrastructure required to access the new mines. The delight amongst the investors at this was almost perfectly mirrored by the frustrations of the Dominion governments, who had wished to move their economies away from resource extraction and into more industrial endeavours.

The specific problem had a simple enough solution, the extension of assured contracts and guarantees to the Wellington Project supply chain would make those firm's investments very low risk, and so more attractive, and this was duly done. The wider problem would remain, how to 'encourage' Imperial investment into the right areas and this was the meat of the committees work. It soon became apparent that it was not strictly speaking an Empire problem, there were more than enough existing links and Empire-wide banking institutions to move the money about, it was a British problem. Specifically it was another manifestation of the Macmillan Gap, the tendency of British banks to not properly support small and medium sized industries, for an admittedly very unclear definition of 'properly support' but which was generally taken to mean not offering enough long term loans to fund expansion and 'working capital'. The exact reasons and history as to why this was the case is long, contested and to a large extent irrelevant for our purposes, it is enough to say that the "gap", having been identified by the Macmillan Committee in the early 1930s (hence the name), was the subject of a number of schemes initiated by the Bank of England and Treasury in a effort to "close" it and improve the flow of funding to smaller firms. However those efforts were fairly narrowly focused on the British domestic market, had more than half an eye on minimising 'disruption' to the existing systems and, far more seriously, were not actually working. Frustration had been building within the rest of the government at this lack of progress not least within the Board of Trade (who had long pushed for a more ambitious approach) and from the more small business friendly wing of the wider Conservative party (who didn't particularly care how it got solved, just that it was sorted). With the issues raised by the committee at the conference adding Imperial and Defence implications, the problem escalated up the government's rather full priority list.

ULXTkEX.jpg

The Captain Flats mine in New South Wales, less than 40 miles south east of Canberra, after almost £1.5 million of investment the mine went into full production just as the Conference was opening. It was not just gold mining that brought the miners to Australia, Captain Flats was a lead-zinc pyrite mine which admittedly did produce a small amount of gold as by-product, in any event this was not the sort of diversification away from gold mining that the Australian government had been hoping for. While the mine brought with it a large investment in the Port Kembla docks, the local railways and the electrical power network, it was still a long way from the sort of industrial manufacturing development Canberra wanted to see. The issue was that Captain Flats would be a profitable mine and repay it's investors handsomely, while the 'strategic' industries the government wanted to see built had far less enticing economic prospects.

It was the Canadian representatives on the committee who provided the answer, being less attached to the existing configuration of the British financial system they pointed out the obvious solution - stop trying to get the clearing banks to do something they didn't want to and just get someone else to do it. This was very much in line with Canada's own interventionist approach to financing, one of the first acts of the Mackenzie King government had been the Dominion Housing Act which had used generous federal co-funding to get life insurance companies involved in mortgage lending when the traditional 'trust and loan' organisations would not. To an extent this had been happening in Britain as well (though without the central government funding or direction) as so called 'extra-bank' lending had been increasing steadily for years; insurance companies and building societies dominating the mortgage market, merchant banks expanding their offerings and any number of institutions providing Hire/Purchase and leaseback financing. However this competition and 'cutting in' to the clearing banks business (as the banks saw it) had not extend to the type of loans and financing identified in the Macmillan Gap. This was, depending upon ones view, indicative that the market was either dominated by an oligarchy that squeezed out competition or was just not a particularly profitable endeavour and therefore not worth new entrants competing in. Either way change would be required and there were precious few options left; 'influence' (the Bank of England and Treasury asking the Clearing Banks to sort the matter out) had clearly failed, as had the Bank of England's efforts to improve the existing system. The stick' (making other investment opportunities less attractive through tax or regulations) was discarded due to concerns it would have undesirable side effects elsewhere, so this left only the 'carrot', making long term industrial loans a more attractive proposition. As the rates could not be raised (making the loans more expensive would defeat the object of the exercise) that meant they had to be made less risky. If the loans were safer then their low interest rate and the required long term commitment would be more acceptable and more investments would be made. However the only body in the financial system that would take the risk of default, without requiring some form of compensation, was the Bank of England and thus ultimately the Treasury.

This was, to put it mildly, not an attractive option to the Directors of the Bank of England, yet they can be considered wildly enthusiastic as compared to the reaction from the Clearing Banks themselves. It was therefore unfortunate for both groups that there was a self-styled 'economic heretic' in No.11, Leo Amery has very little problem with enraging bankers if it would meet his goals of Imperial Unity and strengthening British industry. In a clash of wills between Governor of the Bank and the Chancellor it is the Treasury that tends to get its way, particularly if there was wider support in the government and country, which as we have seen there was. Thus was the British Investment Finance and Industrial Development corporation (BIFID) formed and operational by early the next year, that bifid also meant something split in two was undoubtedly deliberate, as even at birth the corporation would be torn between two almost incompatible objectives. The Bank of England was determined it would not disrupt the existing banking system too seriously, whereas for the government a major disruption was the entire point; if there wasn't a major step change in industrial financing and a closing of the Macmillan Gap there was no point in forming BIFID. The Governor achieved some small victories, BIFID would remain under the aegis of the Bank of England and not the Treasury for instance, but his desire to see the existing clearing banks involved was rejected, the government making it clear they very much saw those banks as part of the problem. The initial funding would instead be from the Bank of England itself and from the various non-bank financial entities who were interested in safe long term assets, pension and assurance funds chief amongst them. The exact extent of the guarantee was somewhat nebulous, the Bank of England investment would take the first loss (should any occur) while any profit not re-invested would be split equally, but beyond that it was more implication that firm commitment; the Bank was not legally obliged to cover losses, but the expectation in the City was that it would ultimately cover them to avoid the reputational damage. Ultimately this proved enough to get the corporation going and, while not every BIFID investment would be a success, the overall portfolio made a healthy return so the implied guarantee was never tested.

Naturally BIFID included investments by British firms within the Empire in its remit, while carefully excluding notionally 'British' firms that merely had a London office and where entirely Empire based. Realising this loophole had been closed, the Canadian government would follow it's own advice and began work on the Industrial Development Bank (IDB), which would be operational in Canada before the end of the decade and, like it's British counter-part, it would be an arm of the Bank of Canada. Australia would in fact never quite get round to starting their own industrial bank, the BIFID remit would prove to be more than sufficient in encouraging British industry to setup subsidiaries in Australia, which was the main objective. By the time Australia had ambitions, and sufficient domestic capital, to go beyond that point industrial development banks had somewhat fallen out of fashion, not least due to the various problems that would engulf BIFID and IDB in their later years as their 'innovations' in securitisation and financial engineering did not develop as they had hoped. Such matters are beyond the timeframe of our work however, it is enough to say that while BIFID would face a considerable challenge from the incumbent clearing banks it would ultimately achieve it's objective and more funding would flow to British industrialists. What should also be noted that the Bank of England directors would feel they 'owed' the clearing banks something for their failure to maintain the status quo and that this marker would be called in sooner than anyone had expected with quite unexpected consequences.

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Notes:
Some people would have to tempt fate and say industrial finance seemed very interesting and that it would not scare anyone off. Let us see if they are still so confident of those opinions now. :)

Imperial Conferences really where that bad at breeding new talking shops. So of course the Australian idea about a new agricultural council, when the Empire already had at least one, is OTL from the actual 1937 Imperial Conference. Not mentioned, because it is irrelevant yet amusing, was that the Empire somehow ended up with an Imperial Forestry Institute and an Imperial Forestry Bureau, both based in Oxford with a shared library, seconded staff, shared buildings and so on, but absolutely different things. Let us be clear on that, definitely different things. (Also the Imperial Bureau of Agricultural Parasitology was both a real thing and slightly disturbing sounding).

The Macmillan Gap was indeed a thing, you can find a number of explanations ranging from "Evil bankers oligarchy" through to "It's Lloyd Georges fault". Naturally I prefer that explanation, which is obviously correct.
Z3wSg01.gif
The reasoning is thus - the main source of small/mid sized industrial investments from the Industrial revolution through to just before WW1 were mad aristocrats, the idle rich and people who had already made a fortune from industrial endeavours. The huge hike in Death Duties Lloyd George introduced, followed by WW1 and lots of lords and heirs dying off, encouraged all those people to setup trusts and other such tax-dodges, none of which could do such industrial investments as they were required by tax law to invest in sensible things (if they were to pretend to be a trust not a tax dodge). Frankly Lloyd George should have had the testicular fortitude to just tax the rich properly and not do it in such a half arsed, easily dodged and distortional way. But I digress.

Australia has bitten off more than it can chew by building an 'entire' Merlin and is slowly realising this, OTL it was in 1938 the Australian tariff board said it would be 'unwise' to try to build an entire car in Australia and aero-engines are much more complicated. Australia (and the southern hemisphere) didn't get an Aluminium smelter until the mid 1950s in OTL and they are not quick or easy things to build. However BIFID will help with the supply chain and Australian aero policy was always madly ambitious so they will go a long way towards their goal before quietly compromising on the really difficult bits. Gold Booms are OTL, it was a busy decade for gold.

Canada did have some interesting ideas on what a bank should do, the IDB is an OTL (if 1944) organisation and the Bank of Canada was in part setup to help funnel money to farmers and industry after the existing Canadian banking system failed to do so in the Depression. Being so dependent on the US Canada had a bad depression in OTL and it's only marginally better here, yes Imperial trade is doing much better, but the US is doing worse and the re-balancing is taking time (and being resisted by Mackenzie King to some extent). Australia never bothered with any sort of local development bank, rhetoric aside Australia has always been happy enough to ride various natural resource crazes which keeps under-cutting any industrial plans.

BIFID is an invention, but one based on a few OTL organisations, mainly IDB and Industrial and Commercial Finance Corporation (ICFC) the British version which had been in planning since 1942 (because the pre-war efforts like Credit for Industry just hadn't worked). ICFC was in many ways a 'modern' venture capitalist, it took equity stakes and provided advice as well as loans. That seemed a bit much for 1930s Britain, but the ideas where there so a toned down version like BIFID seemed reasonable, particularly with someone like Amery as Chancellor. It will not solve every problem of British industry, but it will remove one of the excuses. BIFID will probably get involved in some massive secondary banking scandal/cockup involving securitisation sometime in the 60s, because that is the way of such things, but that is for Pip Generation 6 to worry about. If the last line seems in some way ominous, it is supposed to.
 
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Update at the top of the page!

Not so bad as it sounded then, that's good.

If we do indeed miss out on a update filled with red hot economic action, what do you think the next update might be about?
You got the red hot economic action! Just with less talk about unquoted industrial securities, minimum fees on stock exchanges, the failures and foibles of the regional stock exchange system, and various other truly esoteric bits. Mainly the Macmillan Gap as presented in the chapter is a simplification, there is ridiculous amounts of extra detail out there that the reader is invited to peruse at their leisure, because it adds very little to the story.

Next update is either something aero-porn or the more greasy and practical side of industry. Not sure yet.

I’m far too interested in anarchism to go dealing with such things as nations. :p
Good man. :)

Nonsense. Nothing worse than fear of audience response to stifle good work. Write you want to write and we’ll all get from it what we get from it. Not like you’re going to scare any of us off this far in. :)
I've actually spend ages thinking about a response to this, because it's something I think about when plotting and writing.

I'm aware that some of my writing can slip into just summarising books/sources/whatever to explain the background to something, and I think that adds something as most normal people don't know the background to some of the things I write about. But I've come to realise every chapter should always have some variation in it, at least a few words about what has happened differently (or not happened at all) because of the earlier events. If nothing has changed from actual history, then I probably shouldn't be writing about it.

So it is not so much fear of being boring (though I still think industrial inter-war financing is a niche read) it is fear of accidentally writing a university essay or report and expecting people to read it for fun.

Industrial financing seems very interesting to me. I don't see much of it online and I don't have specialized books.
Be careful what you wish for.
DYAEiOu.gif


I also hope this year improves for you. And for all of us too.
Thank you for that and I do indeed hope we all have a much better 2021. It has started with a Butterfly update, so what more could you ask for. ;)
 
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while a great deal of British capital was being invested in Australia, Canada and the wider Empire (formal and informal) it was going to the 'wrong' schemes. That is to say projects that would make the best returns for the investors

Those evil capitalist swine! Making sensible investment! Expecting to be rewarded for competent decision making!

stop trying to get the clearing banks to do something they didn't want to and just get someone else to do it.

I am reminded of the Simpson episode where Homer becomes garbage secretary of Springfield based off of this concept.

I expect it ends about as well...

This was, to put it mildly, not an attractive option to the Directors of the Bank of England, yet they can be considered wildly enthusiastic as compared to the reaction from the Clearing Banks themselves. It was therefore unfortunate for both groups that there was a self-styled 'economic heretic' in No.11

Read that as economic 'lunatic'. It may prove to be the same thing.

Leo Amery has very little problem with enraging bankers if it would meet his goals of Imperial Unity and strengthening British industry.

He's in for a rough decade...

Naturally BIFID included investments by British firms within the Empire in its remit, while carefully excluding notionally 'British' firms that merely had a London office and where entirely Empire based.

Closing loopholes and investing in britian? Hmm.

The Macmillan Gap was indeed a thing, you can find a number of explanations ranging from "Evil bankers oligarchy" through to "It's Lloyd Georges fault".

Probably that one.

The reasoning is thus - the main source of small/mid sized industrial investments from the Industrial revolution through to just before WW1 were mad aristocrats

Um...this is true, actually. The world of science and (out-there) engineering is lesser now for lack of insane nutjob millionaire enthusiasts. One billionaire trying to kill himself in various interesting ways in various interesting machines, and another trying to harvest outer space for the lizard people just isn't the same.

Frankly Lloyd George should have had the testicular fortitude to just tax the rich properly and not do it in such a half arsed, easily dodged and distortional way. But I digress.

Taxing the rich their fair share is beyond liberal democracies apparently. Although allegedly the amerciand managed it briefly in the 50s or some such???

Australia never bothered with any sort of local development bank, rhetoric aside Australia has always been happy enough to ride various natural resource crazes which keeps under-cutting any industrial plans.

Well to be fair to them it is very easy to be australia and just have a natural resource mining economy. They have so many to chose from they're unlikely to run out anytime soon. Oil, gas, diamonds, precious metals, useful metals, industrial materials, ample sunlight, high speed and reliable wind plains for turbines...
 
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My only question is how this factors into the storyline, as indeed, I don't know what is going on (being a mere mortal and virtual babe in the woods when it comes to Finance; there's a reason I got a Political Science and Computer Science degree and not one from the Business school) and how this impacts the game.
 
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Imperial Conferences spawned committees, councils and bureaus in much the same way the Stuarts spawned illegitimate children; frequently, vigorously and with precious little thought as to the consequences.

Excellent start. 28 words in a row that I fully understand. Let's see how long this continues.

which, despite it's less than enthralling name and relatively short life, would produce some long lasting and unexpected results

Ah good, the most fun kind of results.

The crankshaft being lowered into the crankcase

Excellent. Truly excellent.

These skills were in fact a large part of the problem, while a great deal of British capital was being invested in Australia, Canada and the wider Empire (formal and informal) it was going to the 'wrong' schemes. That is to say projects that would make the best returns for the investors and not those schemes that accorded with the plans of the various governments.

Don't say this too loudly or Mosley will show up with his nefarious credit schemes…

Frankly Lloyd George

Obviously I read this as Frank Lloyd Wright.

Excellent start. 28 words in a row that I fully understand. Let's see how long this continues.

Pretty much the whole way through, as it would turn out. I should obviously have more faith in my ability to wing a rudimentary comprehension of early mid-century industrial banking practices.

You know what, Pip, that was genuinely fascinating. I don't know if I entirely understood it, but I feel like I got enough of it to see what's going on and how it's different to OTL. I have learnt a great deal about banks and aluminium smelting, and frankly to do that in the space of a few paragraphs is something I would have never imagined in my wildest of dreams. Good stuff.
 
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Imperial Conferences spawned committees, councils and bureaus in much the same way the Stuarts spawned illegitimate children

Sir Humphrey Appleby proves this.
 
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Those evil capitalist swine! Making sensible investment! Expecting to be rewarded for competent decision making!
Not sure chasing a gold rush counts as 100% 'sensible', though as long as the returns are proportionate to the risk then it isn't that bad a choice. It is also undeniably more exciting than a long-term development loan to a firm of radiator manufacturers, which I feel is an under-appreciated factor in determining what people invest in.

Read that as economic 'lunatic'. It may prove to be the same thing.

He's in for a rough decade...
Amery as Chancellor is great fun even if he doesn't always make the best decisions. But when balancing so many utterly contradictory requirements there often is no obvious "best" decision even with the benefit of hindsight.

Closing loopholes and investing in britian? Hmm.
London is still not delighted about the idea of the Dominions industrialising. It may have to happen, but they are going to make sure it has maximum benefit for British firms.

Probably that one.
If in doubt, blame Lloyd George. Works for me.
DYAEiOu.gif


Taxing the rich their fair share is beyond liberal democracies apparently. Although allegedly the amerciand managed it briefly in the 50s or some such???
You forget how insanely mental post-war British taxes were. Highest rate of tax was 90% for much of the 50s and 60s, peaking at 98% in the 1970s when everyone decide to really punish people who had jobs the government didn't like, or anyone who made any investments, with various surcharges.

Admittedly it is hard to split out the incompetent policy decisions from the effects of tax policy, but I think that was quite counter-productive. I suppose on it's own terms it 'worked', they set out to punish anyone who invested money (with a 15% tax surcharge) and that did indeed discourage investment. But why they thought that not being able to raise money to buy plant would help British industry is something of a mystery to me.

My only question is how this factors into the storyline, as indeed, I don't know what is going on (being a mere mortal and virtual babe in the woods when it comes to Finance; there's a reason I got a Political Science and Computer Science degree and not one from the Business school) and how this impacts the game.
Storywise a few things;
1. There will be more bank funding and support for British industry, and any British firms investing in the Empire. The recovery will be faster and industry a bit more modernised, what that means practically is one for next time.
2. The last line is setting up a plot point for later. Broadly speaking in OTL the Clearing Banks (as in 'normal' banks with branches where you pay in wages, cheques, that sort of thing) managed to effectively cripple this scheme and so kept their monopoly. Here they lost the fight, because of the Dminions and Amery interfering, so are in a worse position as their monopoly is maybe not broken, but badly weakened. As the Bank of England doesn't want them to fail (because they would have to clear up the mess) they are a due a favour elsewhere, which they will call in and which will have consequences.

Gamewise..? Maybe a couple of extra factories in Australia / Canada for free and blueprints for an industrial tech (if I remember) and something similar for the UK. I assume past Pip did something like that, honestly been a long time since I played the game behind this and it long since stopped being an AAR in any honest sense of the word.

Excellent start. 28 words in a row that I fully understand. Let's see how long this continues.
A better response than I could have hoped for. :)

Excellent. Truly excellent.
It is, isn't it?

Don't say this too loudly or Mosley will show up with his nefarious credit schemes…
I have a few lines in my Butterfly notes saying the Battle of Cable Street, and thence the Public Order Act, never happened. Because by the Autumn of 1936 Fascism was looking a very bad idea, Hitler humbled after France called his bluff over the Rhineland, Italy defeated and the British economy recovering well without the need to resort to the extremes fascism demanded. So I imagine Mosley is still strutting around in his uniform, just to an ever decreasing crowd and being too unimportant to even bother counter-demonstrating.

Maybe that is a bit too optimistic, but in truth I've not thought too much about him as in this timeline he's just not relevant.

Obviously I read this as Frank Lloyd Wright.
I would be disappointed if you didn't.

Pretty much the whole way through, as it would turn out. I should obviously have more faith in my ability to wing a rudimentary comprehension of early mid-century industrial banking practices.

You know what, Pip, that was genuinely fascinating. I don't know if I entirely understood it, but I feel like I got enough of it to see what's going on and how it's different to OTL. I have learnt a great deal about banks and aluminium smelting, and frankly to do that in the space of a few paragraphs is something I would have never imagined in my wildest of dreams. Good stuff.
Thank you for such fulsome praise, I did try to make it accessible, information and entertaining so I am pleased to have succeeded. :)

Sir Humphrey Appleby proves this.
This is very true. At the Conference, as everywhere else in government, the Civil Service will always try to come out on top;

Hacker : If there were a conflict of interests which side would the civil service really be on?
Woolley : The winning side, Prime Minister.
 
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I have a few lines in my Butterfly notes saying the Battle of Cable Street, and thence the Public Order Act, never happened. Because by the Autumn of 1936 Fascism was looking a very bad idea, Hitler humbled after France called his bluff over the Rhineland, Italy defeated and the British economy recovering well without the need to resort to the extremes fascism demanded. So I imagine Mosley is still strutting around in his uniform, just to an ever decreasing crowd and being too unimportant to even bother counter-demonstrating.

If fascism gets nixed that early (and bravo), and if Cable Street never happened, then maybe (big maybe) he can just about eke himself out before the proper full-on conspiracist wackos take over and still claim something like “respectability”. If he sticks with politics he might try his luck as an arch-Keynesian technocrat in whichever party would have him. If he decides to go down with his ship then, well, good riddance.

Either way he ends up a footnote, possibly just about interesting enough for a pub quiz question if the pub in question happens to be full of hispol students.

I should also disclose (it probably doesn’t need disclosing) that I have only the vaguest acquaintance with the overall Butterfly plot. So periodically I will say things that fly in the face of what is actually going on, but that is all part of the fun of discovery on my part. :)
 
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Bravo, you rose to the challenge and a truly wrote it! A red hot economic action update! All very interesting, those poor old Australians got a real wake up call over their industrial abilities though. :(

Aeroporn or the greasy practical side of industry next too, you know your audience Pip I'll give you that. :)
 
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So it is not so much fear of being boring (though I still think industrial inter-war financing is a niche read) it is fear of accidentally writing a university essay or report and expecting people to read it for fun.

Funny you say that. I do like this stuff, but it's pretty hard for me to sit and read about it online (as I don't have proper books). Wrap it in alt history though...

I guess that way I can look forward for the change to the better. Reading about OTL British industrial policy past WW1 seems a bit like reading about Byzantium past 1204 - yeah it's informative, but you know it's leading to doom.
 
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Funny you say that. I do like this stuff, but it's pretty hard for me to sit and read about it online (as I don't have proper books). Wrap it in alt history though...

I’d say 90% of my knowledge of history and economics comes from having been sat reading AARs for the past 8 years. Aside from the game-playing and the writing community, the collected body of work on these boards really shouldn’t be underestimated as a bank of collective knowledge. (Even if it’s just in the form of: this is how it happened alt-historically, but this is the concept as applied to OTL.)
 
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I’d say 90% of my knowledge of history and economics comes from having been sat reading AARs for the past 8 years. Aside from the game-playing and the writing community, the collected body of work on these boards really shouldn’t be underestimated as a bank of collective knowledge. (Even if it’s just in the form of: this is how it happened alt-historically, but this is the concept as applied to OTL.)

Yep, yep, pretty similar here. And I agree in regard of collective knowledge - it can be very impressive sometimes.
 
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Most effective teaching is applying a work of fiction to a process. Even if devoid of stakes or plot, just a situation to better imagine that which is being discussed (the Republic, utopia, a bridge over a river of cheese wtc).
 
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If fascism gets nixed that early (and bravo), and if Cable Street never happened, then maybe (big maybe) he can just about eke himself out before the proper full-on conspiracist wackos take over and still claim something like “respectability”. If he sticks with politics he might try his luck as an arch-Keynesian technocrat in whichever party would have him. If he decides to go down with his ship then, well, good riddance.

Either way he ends up a footnote, possibly just about interesting enough for a pub quiz question if the pub in question happens to be full of hispol students.
Fascism is not nixed, so much as lacking the prestige it once had and no longer a name or brand to conjuror with. The BUF and their fellow travellers can still point at things like the autobahns, but it's grasping at straws compared to their historic pitch of "Look at the strong leadership and the German economic miracle."

Of course how much the popular perception matches the reality is a different question.

I should also disclose (it probably doesn’t need disclosing) that I have only the vaguest acquaintance with the overall Butterfly plot. So periodically I will say things that fly in the face of what is actually going on, but that is all part of the fun of discovery on my part. :)
This will indeed be part of the fun. Fortunately for you I do tend to put in little reminders of past plot points in the notes, if only because it is unreasonable of me to expect anyone to remember what happened in updates written a decade (or more!) ago.

Bravo, you rose to the challenge and a truly wrote it! A red hot economic action update! All very interesting, those poor old Australians got a real wake up call over their industrial abilities though. :(
I am delighted to have achieved my aim on making this interesting.

As you say the Australian government has had a bit of a shock, I'm sure they will get over it but they will need a new plan.

Aeroporn or the greasy practical side of industry next too, you know your audience Pip I'll give you that. :)
By now I probably had better know my readers well. :D

Funny you say that. I do like this stuff, but it's pretty hard for me to sit and read about it online (as I don't have proper books). Wrap it in alt history though...
From my side I probably would never look at much of this without it forming part of the research for this story. I do occasionally go further than I need to, as in this case where I now know far too much about the difficulties of 1930s industrial finance, most of which did not make it into the last chapter and which will never be 'useful' to me. But it is part of my process, I have to feel I understand something before I can properly start writing about it.

I guess that way I can look forward for the change to the better. Reading about OTL British industrial policy past WW1 seems a bit like reading about Byzantium past 1204 - yeah it's informative, but you know it's leading to doom.
It's probably still just about OK inter-war as there are still some real bright spots and causes for hope. But during the war things take a turn for the worse and it can get a bit depressing if you carry on into the post-war.

So things in Butterfly are absolutely changing for the better from an industrial point of view, more of which in the very next chapter. Not so much the policy, we've had enough of that for a while I feel, but the results of policy.

I’d say 90% of my knowledge of history and economics comes from having been sat reading AARs for the past 8 years. Aside from the game-playing and the writing community, the collected body of work on these boards really shouldn’t be underestimated as a bank of collective knowledge. (Even if it’s just in the form of: this is how it happened alt-historically, but this is the concept as applied to OTL.)
Yep, yep, pretty similar here. And I agree in regard of collective knowledge - it can be very impressive sometimes.
I agree entirely with these sentiments.

Most effective teaching is applying a work of fiction to a process. Even if devoid of stakes or plot, just a situation to better imagine that which is being discussed (the Republic, utopia, a bridge over a river of cheese wtc).
Probably depends on what you are teaching to an extent, but I can see the logic of the method. Certainly tying things to an actual example always helps to demonstrate a principle and a fictious example can be made to 'fit' the ideals better than reality.

As mentioned above, we are going practical industry next. Maybe a little bit of policy sneaked in, but mostly practical stuff.
 
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What a banger of an update. Industrial policy, gold mines, and Imperial bureaucracy, all in one. Oh, you spoil us too much @El Pip !

All jokes aside, I quite enjoyed this look into the economics of, amongst other things, building RR Merlins in Australia.
 
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And there was me thinking Pippy had gone off on one of his sabbaticals again. Turns out, even though this thread is 'watched', the forum decided it wasn't going to tell me there's still life here. good job I decided to check in.

Not only several pages of comments, but an actual El Pip slower than real-time update(patent pending). excellent start to the new year :)

It was so bad I actually attempted my own AAR!!

All went horribly wrong obviously, but I tried. thankfully I can now relax and just 'plan' on doing it while I crib notes from Pip's Magnum Opus.

As for the update, were there any actual gameplay changes made by this? extra factories in Australia, or a particular research path taken?
 
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Believe me, if an AAR or two doesn't go off the rails, you're really not doing it right!

That said, glad to see you have caught up!
 
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What a banger of an update. Industrial policy, gold mines, and Imperial bureaucracy, all in one. Oh, you spoil us too much @El Pip !

All jokes aside, I quite enjoyed this look into the economics of, amongst other things, building RR Merlins in Australia.
It was a rare combination of thrilling topics.
DYAEiOu.gif


The Australian government was ambitious but disinterested in the details, it makes for some interesting problems.

And there was me thinking Pippy had gone off on one of his sabbaticals again. Turns out, even though this thread is 'watched', the forum decided it wasn't going to tell me there's still life here. good job I decided to check in.
A pleasure to see you as always caff and good work on persevering past the forum software, which does somehow manage to get worse with every 'upgrade' Paradox inflict on it.

Not only several pages of comments, but an actual El Pip slower than real-time update(patent pending). excellent start to the new year :)

It was so bad I actually attempted my own AAR!!

All went horribly wrong obviously, but I tried. thankfully I can now relax and just 'plan' on doing it while I crib notes from Pip's Magnum Opus.
If you do decide to make another attempt an AAR, or if you could be tempted into posting the horribly wrong effort (which would doubtless be a much better read than many of the tales of constant success that get posted) do let me know. :)

As for the update, were there any actual gameplay changes made by this? extra factories in Australia, or a particular research path taken?
I had to look at my dusty gameplay notes for that one. Australia got a few extra IC back when the CAC decision was taken so already had the extra industry. I think there was an event written for sometime in '38 to give a few more factories to Canada and UK (to represent the development banks taking effect) so there's that.

The gold mining investment is a 'beyond the scope' issue in HOI2/3 (arguably 4 as well), like so much of the finances and economics. Maybe a chunk of money given to Aus or Can if they ever ran short, but maybe not even that.

The actual game will mostly be used for generating some results in the next war, I fully expect to have to do a chunk of working beating it into shape to match the plot, so to an extent I've not been too rigorous in copying things across when I know I'll be making changes anyway.

Believe me, if an AAR or two doesn't go off the rails, you're really not doing it right!

That said, glad to see you have caught up!
Wise words as always sir. :)


You are all I trust familiar with the ambitious claims made about the war winning effects of various things. "*Thing* cut xx months/years off the war because it is so amazing" (Where *Thing* is anything from the RMS Queen Elizabeth through to Radar, the Higgins Boat or the atomic bomb). While researching the next update I came across this deeply specialist example of the genre;


I like a good Lathe as much as the next man, but this is an exceptionally bold and ambitious claim even by the standards of home front Propaganda.


EDIT: changed to just the link (which handily tells you all you need to know about the image itself), because the Germans are still not over the war and get odd about swastikas. Honestly if they are going to get so fussy about these things they never should have voted for Hitler in the first place.
 
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That is exactly the sort of thing I hang around this thread to see. A triumph of the genre.

(You may wish to reconsider the posting of the old swatsikas, mind…)
 
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Shall we make a list of things that actually did shorten the war? Because the usual picks don't seem to have done much. Epseically the nukes.

Thing is, most of the things and decisions that 'vastly shortened the war' weren't examples of allied or soviet genius but the germans making stupid mistakes.

Edit: I was charmed to read the thoughts of one commentator who asked if this latest Australian update was in any way relevant to the game situation. And the response, which was yes, slightly, after checking through very old notes on the issue.
 
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