• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #70 - The Facts about Artifacts

Hello everyone! Shoes here, back to talk about what is genuinely my favorite feature of The Royal Court — Artifact generation! One of the goals we had for Artifacts in CK3 was to ensure that the artifacts your rulers acquire will feel truly distinct from another. No longer will you have a royal treasury filled with identical swords — now you will have a royal treasury filled with an assorted variety of different swords!

Artifact Features​

All Artifacts in the game can have a set of Features that determine both how they were created as well as what they were made from. For example, ‘Oak’, ‘Ash’, and ‘Pine’ are all features of the ‘Wood’ type, which is used to make wooden furniture, spear shafts, book covers, etc., while ‘Engraved’, ‘Filigreed’, and ‘Painted’ are ‘Decoration’-type features which skilled craftspeople can use to decorate artifacts to make them more suitable for royalty.

The main use of Features is to create immersive descriptions for the artifact. Whenever a new artifact is created (such as from an Inspiration), it will gain a set of appropriate Features based on various factors including culture, geography, craftsmanship quality, wealth of the capital city, and event decisions made during the creation process. These Features are then used by the artifact’s description to emphasize any distinctive characteristics that it has! Note that that these Features will not be represented in the 2D and 3D art of the Artifact, as we have far more varieties of Feature than we could reasonably produce art for.

ArtifactExamplesItalian2.png

A screenshot containing 6 example Artifacts. NOTE:Under active development. Values and content subject to change.​

The thing I love about this system is not just that it will generate and display differences between two different axes your ruler commissions from a blacksmith — it is that those differences will be even more pronounced between Artifacts created in the different regions of the world. This means Artifacts that you loot from your defeated foes while on crusade or during overseas raids will be far more distinct from other Artifacts in your treasury, serving as a memento of the great distances you or your ancestors traveled on their journeys.

Of course, we have many types of Artifacts apart from weapons, and some of the material and craftsmanship differences become truly pronounced when you start looking at the type of Artifacts that are created explicitly for rulers to show off with! For example, a crown crafted in Afghanistan might feature pieces of its legendary lapis lazuli, while one made in the Baltic region could instead feature an impressive chunk of amber as a centerpiece. Different varieties of gemstones, cloth, lumber, shells, and animal horns… the range of possible combinations is truly vast!

ArtifactExamples2.png

A screenshot containing 6 example Artifacts. NOTE:Under active development. Values and content subject to change.​

Artifact Modifiers​

As you probably noticed in the above screenshots, every Artifact has a set of character modifiers which are applied to their owner while they have them equipped. Unlike in CK2, there are no ‘slotless’ Artifacts, so in order to gain any benefit from owning an Artifact at all you must have it equipped in one of your personal slots (Weapon, Armor, Regalia, Crown, Trinket) or court slots (Lectern, Throne, Wall Hanging, etc.). By ensuring you can only have a set number of artifacts benefiting a character at once, it becomes much easier for us to balance Artifacts and avoid the massive bonuses characters could gain in CK2 by accumulating vast libraries of forgotten lore, new inventions, and piles of statues.

One guiding principle we used while designing these Artifact Modifiers is the “no overtly supernatural effects” rule that guided us during the base game’s development. For example, a masterfully-forged weapon granting Prowess is straightforward and sensible, as characters fight better with a good weapon in hand. That same weapon boosting Advantage or Army Gold Maintenance is maybe less obvious, but can still be explained by serving as a symbol of hope and inspiration for the soldiers in an army and boosting their morale. Something like No Penalty For Crossing Rivers is nonsensical for an Artifact weapon though — we are not giving rulers access to the equivalent of a fully-functional Staff of Moses! Modders, of course, can add whatever modifiers they wish to an Artifact.

Historical Artifacts and Trinkets​


Of course, not all Artifacts will be artisanal masterpieces! The important thing for Artifacts is that they are meaningful to their owner in some way — this meaning doesn’t need to be purely economic or functional!

Instead, some Artifacts may have great historical value despite a plain appearance, such as Charlemage’s Throne. Other Artifacts might only hold sentimental value, such as a good-luck charm or a locket given to you by a lover which reduces Stress. Finally, some Artifacts may instead be relics of a rather… dubious provenance, yet still useful for those who believe in their power (or at least claim to).

bones3.png


Growing Pains​


Work on the Royal Court expansion is progressing, and it's looking better each day that passes. Now, we want to be upfront and say that it's going to take longer than many of us expect for the expansion to be released. There are many reasons for this; the expansion is very technically challenging and we're doing things we've never done before from the ground up. We want a Royal Court that looks as grand as the mechanics that support it.

We've also had the recent organizational changes that affect how we work, as many of you know we've split into three studios - and with change comes a period of adaptation. The team has grown significantly in recent times. A lot of time has been spent onboarding new members to the team, and we've onboarded more people than we ever have before. While it may have a negative short-term impact, it's definitely going to be a solid investment for the future of CK3, not only for the release of Royal Court, but also our future expansions, and beyond. Of course the extended period of working from home makes things take longer than expected. This is something we have touched on before due to how the working conditions have been recently.

Rest assured that we're still working as hard as we can and things are progressing nicely, and are aiming for a release later this year. We will of course have more exciting details to share in upcoming dev diaries.

For now we’ll leave you with this little extra teaser:
teaser.png
 
  • 166Like
  • 140Love
  • 10
  • 7
  • 4
Reactions:
I apologize if I offended. In the spirit of assuming the best, here is something I think is probably true: If you really try, you can think of story around a sword that would convince you it should give a bonus to defending in one's own territory. It will probably have a lot to do with the legend around the sword more than the mere existence of the sword. I think this is not only OK but very desirable to have a satisfying artifact. If the bonuses are explained fully by "you have a sword," that's not an artifact. For example, maybe the legend is told in great detail, giving troops better ideas for traps and fortifications? Maybe the legend is very complimentary of certain disciplines that help in defensive battles in well-known territory and so your troops are influenced to focus on them? I'm pretty sure you can come up with one you like.

I get that the story you come up with may feel contrived, because of course you will have contrived it to solve this puzzle. But again, I don't think that it actually an issue; rather it is the only approach to explain randomly generated artifacts.
If there's a legend about clever fortifications that gives my troops ideas about how to set up defenses, why do I need to physically possess the sword? The knowledge is in the legend, not the sword. "There's a battle coming up, we should set out some stakes in the ground for defense!" "Hmm, I don't know, does our king own a sword that was once used in a battle with stakes in the ground? If not, I'm not really feeling motivated..."

But, if you want to go down this road, do you believe that you could come up with a story that justifies a sword that eliminates the penalty for crossing a river (the same bonus that having the "Forder" commander trait gives)? The developers apparently feel that that bonus is clearly supernatural and invalid. So if you can come up with such a story, perhaps we should conclude that the ability to come up with these absurd stories is not a good rubric for which effects are reasonable.

My point is that some bonuses do not require these contrived, tortured head-canons to explain. Everyone gets why the crown makes other rulers respect you more, everyone gets why the regalia reduces your short reign penalty. That's what we should be shooting for. Not "can I possibly come up with some complicated story under which this sort of makes sense if you squint hard enough". These aren't 'randomly generated' effects - the developers are picking and choosing which modifiers can go on which type of object.
 
  • 5
  • 2
Reactions:
Maybe a so-called "Simple Sword" can earn a reputation. The Ruler has a Simple Sword. He/she goes out to war, and slays many enemies with the sword. Years later, it's called "The Sword of XXX", the Ruler who originally got the sword.

In short, like all the other things in this game, the prestige, and whatever else, of these Artifacts might change over time, either up or down...
 
  • 6
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Read the description of the simple sword.
I have. "A wrought [METAL] sword of fine craftsmanship". Fine seems to be the lowest quality available. That's what ASoIaF calls "castle-forged". It is not a dime a dozen, it is something befitting a ruler and made specifically for ruler as a special, albeit relatively simple weapon. Many rulers will have this, especially if they are rich, but not everyone - and, if AI tends to pay for artifacts as described, it will be true of the game world, too.
If we're not just slapping abilities on objects, I'd love to hear your definitely-not-contrived explanation for why a spear gives decreased stress gain.
Er, hunting? Anything giving a decreased stress gain is giving it because it is associated with an activity that lowers your stress.
Or it might be an easter egg on "polishing your spear" ;) In which case complaining about it is about as meaningless as complaining about a wooden Planet Pizza truck in the witch's house in Brave (the cartoon).
that a sword gives an inspirational bonus specifically when you are the defender in a war, but I would not buy that it depends on who is the aggressor in a particular battle
Yeah, that one (defending in a battle not in a war) is a bit wonky, just like with own vs. control. But, again, "clearly supernatural effects"?
Was the sword of William Wallace only inspirational when used specifically in the defense of Scotland?
Again, it was certainly more inspirational in that context, and the common part is supposed to be factored in by other bonuses. (For instance, it could give +1 Martial overall, but then also give -1 Martial for becoming overconfident because of the relic, and these sum up to zero.)
I don't think I contended that giving any kind of bonus to defense is supernatural.
Well, not directly, but it is difficult to interpret otherwise this passage combined with all the claims about giving defender advantage as supernatural:
There are plenty of actually reasonable effects for a masterwork sword, but they relate to prestige, grandeur, renown, popular opinion, general opinion, prowess
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
If there's a legend about clever fortifications that gives my troops ideas about how to set up defenses, why do I need to physically possess the sword? The knowledge is in the legend, not the sword. "There's a battle coming up, we should set out some stakes in the ground for defense!" "Hmm, I don't know, does our king own a sword that was once used in a battle with stakes in the ground? If not, I'm not really feeling motivated..."

But, if you want to go down this road, do you believe that you could come up with a story that justifies a sword that eliminates the penalty for crossing a river (the same bonus that having the "Forder" commander trait gives)? The developers apparently feel that that bonus is clearly supernatural and invalid. So if you can come up with such a story, perhaps we should conclude that the ability to come up with these absurd stories is not a good rubric for which effects are reasonable.

My point is that some bonuses do not require these contrived, tortured head-canons to explain. Everyone gets why the crown makes other rulers respect you more, everyone gets why the regalia reduces your short reign penalty. That's what we should be shooting for. Not "can I possibly come up with some complicated story under which this sort of makes sense if you squint hard enough". These aren't 'randomly generated' effects - the developers are picking and choosing which modifiers can go on which type of object.
Presumably owning and using the sword is helpful in keeping the legend alive and in the forefront of people's minds. This is really the basic idea of artifacts; there's nothing special about any specific crown except that it has a history it reminds people of.

I think eliminating the penalty for crossing a river is unrealistic whether it’s as a commander trait or an artifact trait. How does that work, you still have the cross the river? Reducing the penalty would be much more realistic. But I get why they eliminate it; often games are more fun when different abilities are very different instead of just a tiny bit different. This is a distinct but relevant issue, the tradeoff between realism and fun gameplay. I will describe my position as “if you only care about one you’re doing it wrong.”

I think on the rest I’m happy to agree to disagree. I just don’t think artifact powers need to be limited to those that are already fully explained by a three word description. I think the concept is greatly improved if the effects of an artifact are tied to its legend, either in-game (which would be ideal) or imagined. Not to mention that having a wide variety of effects is better for gameplay than everything being +0.5 monthly prestige. But if you aren't convinced, ok.
 
Sorry for nitpicking, but my memories say otherwise: CK3's stats are overall less valuable than CK2's, and Ruler Designer's description says that "pretty good" Prowess starts at 13, while 9 is poor.

I have no idea what the ruler designer says, but in my experience when I'm looking for knights I'm usually quite happy to take on a 9 prowess courtier. Regardless the point still stands that a 9 (or even 5 as in the pictures in this DD) is a rather significant increase in prowess that cannot be described other than a supernatural effect for a weapon to have on someone's ability to win a fight. I'd argue that anything above 1 is an unrealistic increase in prowess already, which would make weapons a pretty useless focal point of the expansion - exactly the argument I was trying to make.
 
  • 4Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Should common items such as a simple sword, as seen in the preview, be represented with mechanical benefits/an artefact at all? Surely most every noble would possess some form of simple weapon.
Yeah this is something that I find really... off. I'd imagine all knights also have some sort of simple weapon. Heck even Men-At-Arms and peasant levies have simple weapons too. We don't send them fighting off with fists! And we don't fight our duels weaponless either.

Unless the assumption is that the weapon we use is worse than "simple"? So below average equipment?

Although it says the sword is of "fine craftsmanship" which in context would be more along the lines of "of very high quality; very good of its kind." perhaps it should be renamed to "Fine [Item]" rather than "Simple [Item]" simple kind of implies that it's the common base standard rather than above average.

I think what they meant by Simple is more so undecorated and without frills. Which even a masterwork sword can be.
 
  • 6Like
  • 1
Reactions:
What is the progress bar that every artifact seems to have? A timer of some sort is obvious, but for what?


Look at the Symbol attached to it. A broken chalice. Pretty sure it's a bar that depletes over time, indicating when the artefact will be broken.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I have. "A wrought [METAL] sword of fine craftsmanship". Fine seems to be the lowest quality available. That's what ASoIaF calls "castle-forged". It is not a dime a dozen, it is something befitting a ruler and made specifically for ruler as a special, albeit relatively simple weapon. Many rulers will have this, especially if they are rich, but not everyone - and, if AI tends to pay for artifacts as described, it will be true of the game world, too.
Would my knights and other low nobles not have access to something of "fine craftsmanship"? Like I'm not saying this is what a peasant would bring to battle, but it's hard to parse that description in a way that makes it anything other than a regular sword that any king would have ready access to without specifically commissioning a specially-inspired smith to make for them.
Er, hunting? Anything giving a decreased stress gain is giving it because it is associated with an activity that lowers your stress.
But we already have a system for hunting, and it removes stress you've already acquired, it doesn't brunt the blow of learning your mother died. "Oh, well at least I have my favorite spear, so it's not all bad!"

Yeah, that one (defending in a battle not in a war) is a bit wonky, just like with own vs. control. But, again, "clearly supernatural effects"?
I will certainly grant that if you ignore the actual effect and reduce it to a related but unobjectionable effect instead, it's not supernatural. But if you embrace the actual effect, the only way it makes sense is if the sword is granting you abilities that could not be reasonably explained by an actual sword.
Again, it was certainly more inspirational in that context, and the common part is supposed to be factored in by other bonuses. (For instance, it could give +1 Martial overall, but then also give -1 Martial for becoming overconfident because of the relic, and these sum up to zero.)
I don't honestly buy that. I think the Scots would consider the sword of William Wallace to be very inspiring in any fight against the English. I certainly don't buy that it would somehow make them so overconfident on the attack as to provide no value. I appreciate that you're making a valiant effort to defend the mechanics as written, but just step back and consider whether the proposed alternative of "+X advantage when commanding an army" perhaps makes a bit more sense.
Well, not directly, but it is difficult to interpret otherwise this passage combined with all the claims about giving defender advantage as supernatural:
In another post, I specifically cite morale boosts as a reasonable, non-supernatural effect.
 
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:
It could make sense to add a percentage of Prowess. A great warrior becomes even greater with the right weapon, a not-so-great... not so much. (To avoid the problem of "a 16-year-old with 3 Prowess gets a legendary sword and becomes a 12 Prowess".)
You mean when King Joffrey of the House Baratheon, First of his Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm received Widow’s Wail he didn’t automatically become a great warrior? o:
 
  • 3Haha
Reactions:
I have no idea what the ruler designer says, but in my experience when I'm looking for knights I'm usually quite happy to take on a 9 prowess courtier. Regardless the point still stands that a 9 (or even 5 as in the pictures in this DD) is a rather significant increase in prowess that cannot be described other than a supernatural effect for a weapon to have on someone's ability to win a fight. I'd argue that anything above 1 is an unrealistic increase in prowess already, which would make weapons a pretty useless focal point of the expansion - exactly the argument I was trying to make.
Another way to look at it which also makes your point is that +9 is more than you get for being Herculean, more than you get for being a Master Hunter, more than you get for being a Blademaster (although less than Legendary Blademaster!), and more than you get for being a Famous Champion. All just for picking up the definitely-not-magic sword!
 
  • 10Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Will there be a chance of seeing historical artifacts like the Book of Kells, the Bayeux Tapestry, or the Stone of Scone? Or for that matter, seeing scripted events where famous npcs offer their services like Snorri Sturluson seeking a commission for the Prose Edda?
 
  • 6Like
Reactions:
There is a weird overlap in this content between CK3 and cultural archaeology that I find more than a little disturbing. What makes something "Italian" or "Afghani"? (The latter of these is really bizarre to mention given the Taliban's constant insistence on their adherence to principles of medieval Islamic law rooted in this "Myth of Nations" [see: Patrick Geary] stuff.)

Will there be a chance of seeing historical artifacts like the Book of Kells, the Bayeux Tapestry, or the Stone of Scone? Or for that matter, seeing scripted events where famous npcs offer their services like Snorri Sturluson seeking a commission for the Prose Edda?
I thought that this is where this stuff was going, but instead we're getting the decaying fingerbone of a nondescript saint. So, both a completely sacrilegious and willfully hateful interpretation of catholic teaching on what relics are, as well as a completely unnecessary mana pool system. Who knew that the way a relic works was similar to spellcasters in World of Warcraft.


Also, @Baron von Shoes, as someone who does relic studies as a professional, please do not call relics artifacts. Artifacts (arte+factum) are "artisanally made things," while relics are those "things left behind". Relics are not crafted objects, rather they are the focus of the belief of the community of the faithful, and as such constitute living beings - with many medieval sources describing the full thaumaturgical power of the saint being imbued in pars pro toto. I want relics in CK3 badly - but if the only way to include them is by shoving them into the same category as swords and spears, please simply don't. I (an irreligious scholar), and tens of millions of catholics around the world, would appreciate it.
 
Last edited:
  • 10
  • 2Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
I think if anyone reads through the past couple of pages, you'll see the hoops that are being jumped through in order to legitimize the reasoning for adding certain modifiers to certain items. I think that if the game cannot be designed to make these choices appear to make sense without jumping through hoops, then that is a real problem. It shouldn't be required that you do mental acrobatics to figure out a reason why your artifact gives you crazy bonuses. Can you do so? Of course. Is doing so a requirement of roleplaying? It shouldn't be. Even in D&D, you should expect to have things make decent sense. At least unless you have a really awful DM.

Things that make sense as Decisions (eg. hunting to reduce stress) should not be involved as a modifier on an artifact if the reasoning behind having it there is that you can use it to do that same thing. You already have this as a Decision. Having or not having the weapon does not increase or decrease your ability to use this Decision and so should not affect stress just because it could be used during the Decision. Now, what could be done is that if you have an appropriate weapon for hunting and you take the hunting Decision, then you are given an increased stress loss benefit. That can make some sense without any stretch of the imagination. Essentially, if you go hunting with a spear, you'll have more stress loss than if you go with a dagger because you're more likely to have a chance to use the spear and therefore relieve stress. But to just say that you always take less stress because you have a specific spear? It doesn't make any sense. As mentioned by another, if your mother dies, does it make sense that you gain less stress just because you have a specific spear? Of course not. Can the spear be used while going out hunting (using the Decision) in order to relieve the stress that you gained when your mother died? Absolutely.

Here's the problem... many modifiers being shown are being placed on items where they don't make sense without a lot of puzzle work. Yet, many of those modifiers could be placed on different items and make more sense. So why not just do that and leave those off of items that do not make sense? Would a modifier relating to defensive abilities make more sense on a map artifact or a book artifact than on a weapon artifact? Most likely, yes. Does it need to be on a weapon just because it's related to war? No.

And the problem with the controlled territory defender advantage is that it is based on what you currently hold at any given time and not your realm. This means that even though you're defending your realm, if the enemy controls the area, you lose the bonus (aka inspiration), which doesn't make sense. It would make far more sense for it to be simply a defender advantage unrelated to control, or if they are willing to create a "new" category of modifier, then something like a personal realm defender advantage or some similar type name that will work when defending within your realm, regardless who attacks in a given battle or who controls a given territory... it just requires that you be in your realm and to be the defender in the war for your realm. Alternatively, it could just be an advantage bonus regardless of attacker or defender status with the idea that it is always an inspiration to your troops. It's true that a weapon with a history relating to defending one's realm might be more inspirational to someone defending the realm than to someone attack someone else's realm, but it would still be inspirational regardless.

The other big problem is that many of the reasons being given for why a specific artifact might make sense to have a specific modifier only make sense if the artifact has a history. Yet these same modifiers are on brand new artifacts as well. For example, there is the reason being given that a the controlled territory defender advantage makes sense because your weapon may have been used in a battle to defend the realm, so it gives inspiration because of that history. In what way is a brand new weapon going to have any such history that could make that scenario even remotely make sense? If they could make it so artifacts gained or lost "strength" based on how their history changes throughout the game, then you could have it so that a new sword would only give a bonus to something minimal like prestige because it's a fancy masterwork sword, but generations later, it's giving defender advantage or whatever because of the history of it. But they aren't going to have such a system, so artifacts should only have modifiers that would make sense when both brand new and ancient, with only specific (unique) artifacts that are already in the game at game start that have actual histories having modifiers that would never make sense for a brand new artifact.

I still don't like that they are back to making artifacts so common like in CK2 that you'll end up with dozens of the same artifact. It cheapens artifacts when your artifact is #37 out of 573 of the same thing.
 
  • 7
  • 4Like
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
I think if anyone reads through the past couple of pages, you'll see the hoops that are being jumped through in order to legitimize the reasoning for adding certain modifiers to certain items. I think that if the game cannot be designed to make these choices appear to make sense without jumping through hoops, then that is a real problem. It shouldn't be required that you do mental acrobatics to figure out a reason why your artifact gives you crazy bonuses. Can you do so? Of course. Is doing so a requirement of roleplaying? It shouldn't be. Even in D&D, you should expect to have things make decent sense. At least unless you have a really awful DM.

Things that make sense as Decisions (eg. hunting to reduce stress) should not be involved as a modifier on an artifact if the reasoning behind having it there is that you can use it to do that same thing. You already have this as a Decision. Having or not having the weapon does not increase or decrease your ability to use this Decision and so should not affect stress just because it could be used during the Decision. Now, what could be done is that if you have an appropriate weapon for hunting and you take the hunting Decision, then you are given an increased stress loss benefit. That can make some sense without any stretch of the imagination. Essentially, if you go hunting with a spear, you'll have more stress loss than if you go with a dagger because you're more likely to have a chance to use the spear and therefore relieve stress. But to just say that you always take less stress because you have a specific spear? It doesn't make any sense. As mentioned by another, if your mother dies, does it make sense that you gain less stress just because you have a specific spear? Of course not. Can the spear be used while going out hunting (using the Decision) in order to relieve the stress that you gained when your mother died? Absolutely.

Here's the problem... many modifiers being shown are being placed on items where they don't make sense without a lot of puzzle work. Yet, many of those modifiers could be placed on different items and make more sense. So why not just do that and leave those off of items that do not make sense? Would a modifier relating to defensive abilities make more sense on a map artifact or a book artifact than on a weapon artifact? Most likely, yes. Does it need to be on a weapon just because it's related to war? No.

And the problem with the controlled territory defender advantage is that it is based on what you currently hold at any given time and not your realm. This means that even though you're defending your realm, if the enemy controls the area, you lose the bonus (aka inspiration), which doesn't make sense. It would make far more sense for it to be simply a defender advantage unrelated to control, or if they are willing to create a "new" category of modifier, then something like a personal realm defender advantage or some similar type name that will work when defending within your realm, regardless who attacks in a given battle or who controls a given territory... it just requires that you be in your realm and to be the defender in the war for your realm. Alternatively, it could just be an advantage bonus regardless of attacker or defender status with the idea that it is always an inspiration to your troops. It's true that a weapon with a history relating to defending one's realm might be more inspirational to someone defending the realm than to someone attack someone else's realm, but it would still be inspirational regardless.

The other big problem is that many of the reasons being given for why a specific artifact might make sense to have a specific modifier only make sense if the artifact has a history. Yet these same modifiers are on brand new artifacts as well. For example, there is the reason being given that a the controlled territory defender advantage makes sense because your weapon may have been used in a battle to defend the realm, so it gives inspiration because of that history. In what way is a brand new weapon going to have any such history that could make that scenario even remotely make sense? If they could make it so artifacts gained or lost "strength" based on how their history changes throughout the game, then you could have it so that a new sword would only give a bonus to something minimal like prestige because it's a fancy masterwork sword, but generations later, it's giving defender advantage or whatever because of the history of it. But they aren't going to have such a system, so artifacts should only have modifiers that would make sense when both brand new and ancient, with only specific (unique) artifacts that are already in the game at game start that have actual histories having modifiers that would never make sense for a brand new artifact.

I still don't like that they are back to making artifacts so common like in CK2 that you'll end up with dozens of the same artifact. It cheapens artifacts when your artifact is #37 out of 573 of the same thing.
I think you make some good points. Increasing stress reduction from hunting is both a more interesting and more engaging modifier than overall stress reduction. And some of the ideas for improving the defender modifier are good too.

As far as the broader idea that you shouldn’t have to come up with a story to understand artifact effects, on some level I agree. It would be better if content designers created the stories, and best of all if the game did organically. But the first is unrealistic unless there are major changes to the breadth of artifact types. And the second, as you say, isn’t going to happen.

Given that, I’d rather have more interesting effects that are not fully explained in game. Of course if there are cases we can have more of both, like your examples above, that’s great.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Another way to look at it which also makes your point is that +9 is more than you get for being Herculean, more than you get for being a Master Hunter, more than you get for being a Blademaster (although less than Legendary Blademaster!), and more than you get for being a Famous Champion. All just for picking up the definitely-not-magic sword!
The way i looked at it was comparing it to knight education

24px-Trait_education_martial_prowess_1.png
Bumbling Squire
+1
The Bumbling Squire is only technically a knight, remembering little from their formal training.
24px-Trait_education_martial_prowess_2.png
Confident Knight
+2
The Confident Knight is familiar with the ways of their culture's traditional combat, even fighting a few actions against recalcitrant peasants as a teenager.
24px-Trait_education_martial_prowess_3.png
Formidable Banneret
+3
The Formidable Banneret led troops and fought bandits even before their majority, battle-hardened into a determined combatant.
24px-Trait_education_martial_prowess_4.png
Famous Champion
+4
The Famous Champion is known, respected, and perhaps even feared throughout the realm as a paragon of their culture's warrior practices.

So if you are a famous champion, among the most respected warriors. You get +4. The simple sword some people keep complaining about also gives +4.

But I'll say, as someone that's part of a historical fencing club: A good weapon doesn't make you a better fighter. A bad one could hamper you, but a good one won't inherently make you a better fighter.
One could argue "the base prowess is the prowess you have with average weaponery" and if you use a better weapon the already factured in penalty is negated, but up to +9 is way too much.
I would make it +2 max.

Hope this won't turn into the stat-bloat it threatens to be.

Edit: after re-reading it, I've realised Famous Champion was already mentioned by @Tiax . The point still stands, but me pointing out the education traits was somewhat...... redundant.
 
Last edited:
  • 10Like
  • 2
Reactions:
There is a weird overlap in this content between CK3 and cultural archaeology that I find more than a little disturbing. What makes something "Italian" or "Afghani"? (The latter of these is really bizarre to mention given the Taliban's constant insistence on their adherence to principles of medieval Islamic law rooted in this "Myth of Nations" [see: Patrick Geary] stuff.)
Maybe it's only an "Italian Spear" if you aren't Italian yourself is what I'm thinking
 
Here's the problem... many modifiers being shown are being placed on items where they don't make sense without a lot of puzzle work. Yet, many of those modifiers could be placed on different items and make more sense. So why not just do that and leave those off of items that do not make sense? Would a modifier relating to defensive abilities make more sense on a map artifact or a book artifact than on a weapon artifact? Most likely, yes. Does it need to be on a weapon just because it's related to war? No.
This nails it. There are plenty of objects that the various modifiers would make sense on, and plenty of modifiers that would make sense on swords, spears, etc. But for some reason they've chosen to just pair up modifiers and objects in a slapdash fashion with little regard for sensibility. What's weird is that there's not even any particular game balance reason why it has to be "controlled territory defender advantage" - CK3 warfare is hardly a delicately balanced machine that hinges on that particular modifier being on artifacts. But if you imagine the process they went through as just copying existing modifiers that are in the same category as the object (martial modifiers go on martial artifacts, etc.), then it's very clear how we ended up here.
 
  • 7
  • 1Like
Reactions: