CK3: Tours and Tournaments - The Vision

[Dathremo]

Nah. They’ll happily ignore it by dishing the community another lacklustre DD that no one cares for. THAT is Pdox today, a bunch out of touch devs fuelled by greed (and long vacations) at the expense of said community.

They take the same set of vacations now that they have always taken - I honestly just think the main issue is the shift to these infrequent and expensive annual DLCs which are marketed to be flashy and shiny rather than in depth because they are designed with much more casual players in mind who PDX hope will buy the shiny new DLC or associated expansion pass play it for a few hours and then go back to whatever other games they spend most of their time on rather than dedicated and long term players who I will admit are fewer in number but much more vocal on changes they want and much more critical of what is being presented to them

There is a reason why Paradox staff were on here talking up the sales for Royal Court which is sitting at 45% positive reviews, similar situation for Friends & Foes which is sitting at 39% positive reviews

Paradox seems to have quite happily decided that selling a few more copies of their flashy overpriced DLCs should be the priority of the first few years and that long term fans will just complain a bit buy the DLCs anyway and are thus a problem for later
I only got RC due to the Royal Edition, didn't buy Friends and Foes and most likely won't be buying Tours and Tournaments

 

[riadach]

The bloody wedding thing almost made my eyes fall out of my head, considering the actual event it was based on in G. R. R. Martin's work was a 17th century example of clan violence in Scotland, not medieval and arguably not feudal either. Despite that little hiccup, I am intrigued about what the rest of the features will be, or how this will all work.

15th century.

Based on the Black Dinner of 1440.

 

[riadach]

not sure if this was already brought up but:


View attachment 954128


<3 ART (for Agrarian Research Techniques)! <3

Mention is made of having tourneymen in armour emblazoned with their coats of arms.

 

[Minxfiver]

Do you really think that they are gonna lay out every itty bitty feature in the very first Dev Diary? If the following ones disappoint you and everyone else, then I encourage you to be upset. But people are rushing to conclusions, are they not?

No but they are gonna lay out the biggest selling points for the upcoming dlcs and we can comment on them

 

[anbeck]

The community should have instead of always Praising and Liking everything Paradox [...]

Are we reading the same forum?

 

[Drake_Hound]

Are we reading the same forum?

Lets see the LIKES in most DEV dairy over the 2 years ... oh my what a shock and surprise.
Lets see the debates always end up , in argument over Paradox always black and white , instead of the color grey ..
Lets see the requested features , always people saying NO ... instead of oh it might have potential.
Then the request most people make , I want this region DLC , this region DLC ... instead of requesting Mechanics for all or bringing CK3 closer to replace CK2.

Lets see India has war elephants , why doesn't North Africa have them this is how Western Civilisation came into contact with War Elephants ? Oh are they even in the game most players would ask. they never ever encountered them since they are staying in their comfort zone.
Same story with a lot of things , people are mostly interested in their comfort zone .
IF CK2 stayed in their comfort zone , it wouldn't even had that many expansion or even this huge LEAP towards CK3 3D graphics and perfection of mechanics.

 

[cjhoser]

Cool DLC idea really, but the lack of fleshed out mechanics for Muslim, Byzantium and Catholic world means to me that I prob still won't be touching this game until late 2025 at the current pace of development. I believe CK3 had the strongest launch of all the Paradox games and every DLC and expansion since has been incredibly underwhelming and disappointing.

 

[Majokarp]

Can't wait to get my hand on this

 

[anbeck]

Lets see the LIKES in most DEV dairy over the 2 years ... oh my what a shock and surprise.
Lets see the debates always end up , in argument over Paradox always black and white , instead of the color grey ..
Lets see the requested features , always people saying NO ... instead of oh it might have potential.
Then the request most people make , I want this region DLC , this region DLC ... instead of requesting Mechanics for all or bringing CK3 closer to replace CK2.

Ok, I see your point now. The extreme polarization is certainly not helpful, I agree.

I think what exacerbates the issue is that Paradox changed the DLC model to fewer but more costly (both from the cost of production and sales price) expansions rather than the old way of having a more steady stream of smaller DLCs (although I think the switch was already made with Holy Fury for CK2 and only "made official" with CK3).

Back then, one would just skip a DLC one didn't like. Didn't like Sunset Invasion? Maybe you'll like The Republic, which dropped two months later (I know this was an exception). Don't care for pagan mechanics in Old Gods? Half a year later, Sons of Abraham is there. You never play in India? Don't worry, half a year after Rajas of India there will be Charlemagne, with Way of Life just thrown in as a bonus just a couple of months later. If one announcement wasn't for you, you could just shrug your shoulders and wait for the next one.

Now, every single of the large expansions will be a high-stakes showdown for the community. And this means Paradox can never please anybody. If the next expansion were to focus on the Papacy, people will accuse Paradox of being Eurocentric. If the next expansion were to focus on India, people will say: "How can you even do that if the basics of the game aren't fleshed out - like the Papacy?!"

We've reached a point where those who are disappointed by the announcement of an major expansion know they will have to wait at least 1 year for the next one to come around. And that certainly contributes to harsher reactions on the forum.

I can already see people typing: "But there are event and flavor packs that fill the gap just as much as small DLCs like Way of Life did!"

To that I can say: I am personally of the opinion that event packs are a dead end game development wise: no matter how many events you write, they will become repetitive sooner rather than later. Flavor does not come from events but from mechanics that generate stories (and I hope that TnT will have those!).

And flavor packs are geographically limited in such a way that they hardly matter once you play outside the region. I personally liked Fate of Iberia, but not that much that I play more than two games on the Iberian peninsula. This is different from CK2's small DLCs like Way of Life, which was relevant no matter where on the map you played.

I care a lot about CK3, so I hope TnT will be strong and convince some of its critics. But I would also welcome if CK3 took a leaf out of Vic3's (yet unproven, it has to be said) DLC book: I think the Vic 3 devs suggested that the smaller packs would be thematic rather than region-focused. If CK3 were to go that route, we could have a more steady stream of mechanics added that would be relevant in many places of the maps - even if it is the most tiny of mechanics! Well, maybe that's exactly what F&F and W&W try to do, but in that case I'd shift the emphasis from events to mechanics.

I just hope I can one day open a CK3 announcement post where the critics of the DLC that was announced will say something like "This one's not for me, so I'll skip it. But the last two packs were really nice, and I like the direction CK3 is taking".

EDIT: a word

 

[Muramasa]

Love the content that’s been layed out in this news and i hope it will be enough to alleviate the boredom that set in after playing a few games. I also dearly hope that more dlc/updates are coming in the not too distant future with relatively “easy”ro develop features because as some have said after 2 years the game does still feel quite barebones on some aspects. I do like the devs trying new stuff like the touring system but i feel that a custodian like team which could fix/add “low hanging fruits” could go a long way to put some meat where needed and some oil to lubricate some systems.

 

[Tomray94]

15th century.

Based on the Black Dinner of 1440.

It's the Black Dinner and the Glencoe Massacre of 1692 combined. The actual "massacre" part though was based on Glencoe, whereas, correct me if I am wrong, the black dinner was just two people getting summarily executed.

 

['Ciusi]

Wait, the regency system is part of the DLC? I'm not going to comment on the other stuff yet, as it could be interesting DLC, though I have mixed feelings about the information given. I'll wait for the next DD to form an opinion. But I think you initially claimed that you don't want to lock the core game mechanics as paid content, they're supposed to be part of free patches, whereas paid content will always be something extra. Already the cultural hybridizations and divergences introduced in Royal Court were somewhat at contradiction with that claim, but I admit that it's not a very important game mechanic. But regencies are very important! Are you telling me that if I'm not interested in tours and tournaments, I have to pay the full price for a mechanic that should have been in the game at release in the first place? I hope this is some sort of misunderstanding. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem to buy quality content to support you, but firstly, after buying the Royal Edition and experiencing the previous DLCs, I'm already very cautious, and secondly, I come from the eastern part of the EU where the price of the game is the same but our salaries are two to three times lower than in the western part of the EU. So if someone is from Western Europe, imagine that this DLC would cost 60 to 90 euros and you will understand my point of view why I hesitate to pay that much for one basic game mechanic if this DLC won't contain anything else that would interest me.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

Wait, the regency system is part of the DLC? I'm not going to comment on the other stuff yet, as it could be interesting DLC, though I have mixed feelings about the information given. I'll wait for the next DD to form an opinion. But I think you initially claimed that you don't want to lock the core game mechanics as paid content, they're supposed to be part of free patches, whereas paid content will always be something extra. Already the cultural hybridizations and divergences introduced in Royal Court were somewhat at contradiction with that claim, but I admit that it's not a very important game mechanic. But regencies are very important! Are you telling me that if I'm not interested in tours and tournaments, I have to pay the full price for a mechanic that should have been in the game at release in the first place? I hope this is some sort of misunderstanding. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem to buy quality content to support you, but firstly, after buying the Royal Edition and experiencing the previous DLCs, I'm already very cautious, and secondly, I come from the eastern part of the EU where the price of the game is the same but our salaries are two to three times lower than in the western part of the EU. So if someone is from Western Europe, imagine that this DLC would cost 60 to 90 euros and you will understand my point of view why I hesitate to pay that much for one basic game mechanic if this DLC won't contain anything else that would interest me.

Regencies are going to be free

 

[johnty5]

This is an excellent comment that tries to understand the dynamics of what's going on rather than falling into the "Paradox bad" vs "Haters bad" thing.

I think what exacerbates the issue is that Paradox changed the DLC model to fewer but more costly (both from the cost of production and sales price) expansions rather than the old way of having a more steady stream of smaller DLCs (although I think the switch was already made with Holy Fury for CK2 and only "made official" with CK3).

Back then, one would just skip a DLC one didn't like. Didn't like Sunset Invasion? Maybe you'll like The Republic, which dropped two months later (I know this was an exception). Don't care for pagan mechanics in Old Gods? Half a year later, Sons of Abraham is there. You never play in India? Don't worry, half a year after Rajas of India there will be Charlemagne, with Way of Life just thrown in as a bonus just a couple of months later. If one announcement wasn't for you, you could just shrug your shoulders and wait for the next one.

I think you're right that the waits caused by the bigger-DLC-but-less-frequent model are a big part of this. And that's compounded by the pandemic piling additional delays on top of that for the first year post-release. If we'd got Royal Court in 2021 and we were learning about T&T March 2022 instead of March 2023, I think there'd still be a lot of pissed-off people, but I think it wouldn't be so bad as it currently is.

Now, every single of the large expansions will be a showdown for the community. And this means Paradox can never please anybody. If the next expansion were to focus on the Papacy, people will accuse Paradox of being Eurocentric. If the next expansion were to focus on India, people will say: "How can you even do that if the basics of the game aren't fleshed out - like the Papacy?!"

We've reached a point where those who are disappointed by the announcement of an major expansion know they will have to wait at least 1 year for the next one to come around. And that certainly contributes to harsher reactions on the forum.

Yeah, this is the big problem for Paradox. At this point, even if the entire CK3 Dev team said "Right. Systemic DLC, ERE mechanics, Papal mechanics - everything that's been called for on the forums - is the only priority from now on. Nothing's getting worked on apart from that" (and, judging by Wokeg's comments, that might actually not be so far from the truth of what's actually going to happen from here on in), there's such a massive backlog of that stuff and it's going to take so much time to do that it's difficult to see how people who want that stuff are going to be satisfied at any point in the next few years.

I wondered if a roadmap might help - to reassure people that mechanical stuff is coming within particular timeframes - but the sheer volume of stuff that's missing means that a roadmap that inevitably has to say "Papal mechanics in 2025" or whatever would likely actually exacerbate the situation.

It's doubly troubling as it'll require excellent comms to navigate - and CK3 comms has been really, really bad since launch.

I can already see people typing: "But there are event and flavor packs that fill the gap just as much as small DLCs like Way of Life did!"

To that I can say: I am personally of the opinion that event packs are a dead end game development wise: no matter how many events you write, they will become repetitive sooner rather than later. Flavor does not come from events but from mechanics that generate stories (and I hope that TnT will have those!).

I really agree with this. Henrik Fåhraeus used to talk about events as being something to "ground" the player in the setting - an opportunity to highlight that that player's character was in a real court in a real place rather than an abstract concept that only existed as numbers on a map and in menus - and that rare event chains could be used to tell a story that layers on top of the stories that emerge from the systems.

CK3 events too often feel like they're designed to be stories in and of themselves, rather than interesting "extras" on top the systemic ones.

Weirdly, post-launch, the forum was really keen on getting more events. I didn't really agree with it at the time - but it's clearly flipped completely since then.

And flavor packs are geographically limited in such a way that they hardly matter once you play outside the region. I personally liked Fate of Iberia, but not that much that I play more than two games on the Iberian peninsula. This is different from CK2's small DLCs like Way of Life, which was relevant no matter where on the map you played.

I care a lot about CK3, so I hope TnT will be strong and convince some of its critics. But I would also welcome if CK3 took a leaf out of Vic3's (yet unproven, it has to be said) DLC book: I think the Vic 3 devs suggested that the smaller packs would be thematic rather than region-focused. If CK3 were to go that route, we could have a more steady stream of mechanics added that would be relevant in many places of the maps - even if it is the most tiny of mechanics! Well, maybe that's exactly what F&F and W&W try to do, but in that case I'd shift the emphasis from events to mechanics.

Agree with this. I think the backlog of needed systemic content is now so large that the Flavour packs are really going to need to be system-heavy and more thematic than regional - otherwise it's difficult to see how CK3 development can begin to "catch up" on the stuff that's needed.


Overall, I believe that the systemic stuff is coming. Wokeg and the other devs who post here seem genuinely enthusiastic and thoughtful about getting it into the game - and Wokeg commented yesterday that the approach will pivot to systemic content post T&T. I think, from here on in, development will be focussing more on the sort of stuff the forum is currently calling for. It's just that Paradox have got themselves into such a hole, built up such such a backlog and burnt through so much goodwill, I can't see any quick wins that can avoid a pissed-off fandom in at least the medium term.

 

[SeraphAscending]

I think in my first game I will not even play tall, I will just play low: just be a count, who is a good steward or spymaster and who will get invited to feasts, meet and manipulate people, maybe become a regent or something. All while just having one castle.

I love that this is actually becoming and option without for certain being bored to death with nothing to do.

 

[Drake_Hound]

Ok, I see your point now. The extreme polarization is certainly not helpful, I agree.

I think what exacerbates the issue is that Paradox changed the DLC model to fewer but more costly (both from the cost of production and sales price) expansions rather than the old way of having a more steady stream of smaller DLCs (although I think the switch was already made with Holy Fury for CK2 and only "made official" with CK3).

Back then, one would just skip a DLC one didn't like. Didn't like Sunset Invasion? Maybe you'll like The Republic, which dropped two months later (I know this was an exception). Don't care for pagan mechanics in Old Gods? Half a year later, Sons of Abraham is there. You never play in India? Don't worry, half a year after Rajas of India there will be Charlemagne, with Way of Life just thrown in as a bonus just a couple of months later. If one announcement wasn't for you, you could just shrug your shoulders and wait for the next one.

Now, every single of the large expansions will be a high-stakes showdown for the community. And this means Paradox can never please anybody. If the next expansion were to focus on the Papacy, people will accuse Paradox of being Eurocentric. If the next expansion were to focus on India, people will say: "How can you even do that if the basics of the game aren't fleshed out - like the Papacy?!"

We've reached a point where those who are disappointed by the announcement of an major expansion know they will have to wait at least 1 year for the next one to come around. And that certainly contributes to harsher reactions on the forum.

I can already see people typing: "But there are event and flavor packs that fill the gap just as much as small DLCs like Way of Life did!"

To that I can say: I am personally of the opinion that event packs are a dead end game development wise: no matter how many events you write, they will become repetitive sooner rather than later. Flavor does not come from events but from mechanics that generate stories (and I hope that TnT will have those!).

And flavor packs are geographically limited in such a way that they hardly matter once you play outside the region. I personally liked Fate of Iberia, but not that much that I play more than two games on the Iberian peninsula. This is different from CK2's small DLCs like Way of Life, which was relevant no matter where on the map you played.

I care a lot about CK3, so I hope TnT will be strong and convince some of its critics. But I would also welcome if CK3 took a leaf out of Vic3's (yet unproven, it has to be said) DLC book: I think the Vic 3 devs suggested that the smaller packs would be thematic rather than region-focused. If CK3 were to go that route, we could have a more steady stream of mechanics added that would be relevant in many places of the maps - even if it is the most tiny of mechanics! Well, maybe that's exactly what F&F and W&W try to do, but in that case I'd shift the emphasis from events to mechanics.

I just hope I can one day open a CK3 announcement post where the critics of the DLC that was announced will say something like "This one's not for me, so I'll skip it. But the last two packs were really nice, and I like the direction CK3 is taking".

EDIT: a word

CK2 was my introduction to Paradox Gaming , also introduction at a time where Paradox was in a crisis about their DLC sale model , but create a game Great Enough that it stimulates people imagination , have enough options and combination that makes people want more , is why they continue the DLC policy .
It was at a time where MMORPG were popular , and people paying DLC for supporting the game growth , was something new , incase of CK2 they have something to show for , instead of what is now become Pay and end up with nothing cause servers shutdown or company went bankrupt.
But people supporting the game , doesn't mean letting them blindly RIP people off with CHEAP EVENTS PACKS .

Lets be honest events packs of Paradox are trough all their games, in fact they even helped Battle Tech with event packs.
Sorry to say event packs isn't something people should CHEER for , they should be added for FREE or at least bundled with NEW MECHANICS ... but we need to earn money , oh come on writing events is hard ? No it is time consuming , creating unique events is hard.
But we have to link them to animations etc... well CK3 wanted go 3D .

Way of Life DLC first a lot of people complained , but it became the stable of everybody playtrough once you tried it . now nobody can imagine CK2 without way of life.
There is nothing new , other then the FANS of Paradox has changed , so did the NEW development crew. which is good since a younger generation took over.

A lot of people bought everything CK2 had to offer , even if they didn't like the direction the DLC or Whatever it was , but they were assured that there was real Quality.
in 2 Years time there isn't much aside from Royal Court that added something really new to CK3 ....
So what has happened in 2 years time , the launch was so promising , the mechanics so welldone , suddenly it went stale ... so anything that helps CK3 with a vision.
Even if Players and Consumers do not like Crusader Sims , as long they have a vision to work on , so get US everything from CK2 (but with CK3 improvements ) if they run out of VISION , but fine it seems they finally gotten their VISION back , and stick to it CK3 can grow.
But event packs ... no thank you !

But first off people should be critical and offer solution , it seems this generation hardly offer solutions anymore or even bother to explain what they really want.
What you want is what everybody wants that CK3 doesn't die , and becomes a ghost like half complete game without real substance.

 

[johnty5]

Wait, the regency system is part of the DLC? I'm not going to comment on the other stuff yet, as it could be interesting DLC, though I have mixed feelings about the information given. I'll wait for the next DD to form an opinion. But I think you initially claimed that you don't want to lock the core game mechanics as paid content, they're supposed to be part of free patches, whereas paid content will always be something extra. Already the cultural hybridizations and divergences introduced in Royal Court were somewhat at contradiction with that claim, but I admit that it's not a very important game mechanic. But regencies are very important! Are you telling me that if I'm not interested in tours and tournaments, I have to pay the full price for a mechanic that should have been in the game at release in the first place? I hope this is some sort of misunderstanding. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem to buy quality content to support you, but firstly, after buying the Royal Edition and experiencing the previous DLCs, I'm already very cautious, and secondly, I come from the eastern part of the EU where the price of the game is the same but our salaries are two to three times lower than in the western part of the EU. So if someone is from Western Europe, imagine that this DLC would cost 60 to 90 euros and you will understand my point of view why I hesitate to pay that much for one basic game mechanic if this DLC won't contain anything else that would interest me.

Regencies are going to be in the free patch.

 

[riadach]

It's the Black Dinner and the Glencoe Massacre of 1692 combined. The actual "massacre" part though was based on Glencoe, whereas, correct me if I am wrong, the black dinner was just two people getting summarily executed.

There were similar massacres during this period that violated the laws of hospitality, such as the 1305 against the Uí Chonchobhair Failge of Offaly. These was cited among other violations of hospitality in the 1317 Remonstrance of the Irish Chiefs to Pope John XXII.
:

Also of the same and the banquets of the English. For the English inhabiting our land, who call themselves of the middle nation, are so different in character from the English of England and from other nations that with the greatest propriety they may be called a nation not of middle medium, but of utmost, perfidy. For, from of old they have had this wicked unnatural custom, which even yet has not ceased among them but every day becomes stronger and more established, viz. when they invite noblemen of our nation to a banquet, during the very feast or in the time of sleep they mercilessly shed the blood of their unsuspicious guests, and in this way bring their horrible banquet to an end. When this has been thus done they have cut off the heads of the slain and sold them for money to their enemies, as did the baron Peter Brunechehame (Bermingham), a recognized and regular betrayer, in the case of his gossip Maurice de S.3 and his brother Caluache, men of high birth and great name among us. Inviting them to a banquet on Trinity Sunday, on that same day when the repast was finished, as soon as they had risen from the table he cruelly murdered them with twentyfour of their following and sold their heads dear to their enemies. And when he was afterwards accused to the king of England, the present king's father, of this crime, the king inflicted no punishment on so nefarious a traitor.

Likewise Sir Thomas de Clare, brother of the Earl of Gloucester, summoning to his house Brian Ruadh, prince of Thomond, his gossip, though as a token of closer confederacy and friendship he had communicated of the same host divided into two parts, at last by counsel of the aforesaid unspeakable nation he suddenly tore him from the table and the feast, had him dragged at horses' tails, and having cut off his head had the headless corpse hung by the feet from a beam.4

Likewise, Geoffrey de Pencoyt, of the same nation, after a feast which he had made for them in his house, on that same night, as they were sleeping in their beds, killed Maurice, king of Leinster, and Arthur, his father, men of very high nobility and authority.

Likewise, John fitzThomas, Earl of Kildare, three days after the killing, had the head of an Irish nobleman, his gossip (accidentally slain not by him but by others), cut off in order to basely sell it. And likewise, the same Earl John, after the execrable death of the father as above narrated, thrust into a filthy prison John, son of the aforesaid most distinguished Caluache, a handsome youth who, from the time when he had been lifted from the baptismal font by the earl himself, had been reared continuously in his house; and after a few days he had the guiltless youth not guiltlessly put to death in the prison.

Even if the Glencoe was Martin's primary inspiration, there are plenty of examples from the period of massacres being perpetrated at feasts or sacraments.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

CK2 was my introduction to Paradox Gaming , also introduction at a time where Paradox was in a crisis about their DLC sale model , but create a game Great Enough that it stimulates people imagination , have enough options and combination that makes people want more , is why they continue the DLC policy .
It was at a time where MMORPG were popular , and people paying DLC for supporting the game growth , was something new , incase of CK2 they have something to show for , instead of what is now become Pay and end up with nothing cause servers shutdown or company went bankrupt.
But people supporting the game , doesn't mean letting them blindly RIP people off with CHEAP EVENTS PACKS .

Lets be honest events packs of Paradox are trough all their games, in fact they even helped Battle Tech with event packs.
Sorry to say event packs isn't something people should CHEER for , they should be added for FREE or at least bundled with NEW MECHANICS ... but we need to earn money , oh come on writing events is hard ? No it is time consuming , creating unique events is hard.
But we have to link them to animations etc... well CK3 wanted go 3D .

Way of Life DLC first a lot of people complained , but it became the stable of everybody playtrough once you tried it . now nobody can imagine CK2 without way of life.
There is nothing new , other then the FANS of Paradox has changed , so did the NEW development crew. which is good since a younger generation took over.

A lot of people bought everything CK2 had to offer , even if they didn't like the direction the DLC or Whatever it was , but they were assured that there was real Quality.
in 2 Years time there isn't much aside from Royal Court that added something really new to CK3 ....
So what has happened in 2 years time , the launch was so promising , the mechanics so welldone , suddenly it went stale ... so anything that helps CK3 with a vision.
Even if Players and Consumers do not like Crusader Sims , as long they have a vision to work on , so get US everything from CK2 (but with CK3 improvements ) if they run out of VISION , but fine it seems they finally gotten their VISION back , and stick to it CK3 can grow.
But event packs ... no thank you !

But first off people should be critical and offer solution , it seems this generation hardly offer solutions anymore or even bother to explain what they really want.
What you want is what everybody wants that CK3 doesn't die , and becomes a ghost like half complete game without real substance.

I agree "Rajas of India" for CK2 was admittedly really weird, for that time, direction to go, but it brought tons of new content to the game.
While we want CK to becoming better and better, current generation of Paradox gamers seems to be:

 

[RaccoonCity]

I can't believe this game still doesn't have some kind of trade or impactful economic mechanics.