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Dev Diary #130 – Wards and Wardens - The Vision

Hello all!

It's been a few weeks since we spoke but it feels like longer, what with all of you having been busy traveling, touring, tournamenting and the rest! It is time for us, nonetheless, to leave behind that world for now and take a look ahead at what we have coming up next.


Vision

Our first Event Pack, Friends & Foes, gave us something of a chance to experiment. Since then, we’ve had the chance to take a look at exactly what direction we want to start moving in with these packs, and build on what worked.

One area that we hit upon was diversity of content and how the player experienced the game. Events are the ink that we daub on to the fabric of the narrative, but it’s how, what and why these events happen that govern their efficacy. Introducing new avenues for that content to reach the player is a great thing, provided it’s done in an unobtrusive way.

With that in mind, we’re going to outline a few of the new features that you’ll find in Wards & Wardens (the event-pack that you voted for last January) and its accompanying patch - both available on August 22nd. Some of them we’ll talk about more in the future, so don’t expect anything too exhaustive here, but let’s start off with…


Captivating features

Hostages aren’t quite what you’d think of when you hear the term. Rather than forced holding of a person to ransom, hostageship in the Middle Ages was a political and legal status that was absolutely widespread.

Put simply, hostages were generally given, not taken. They were, essentially, transactional guarantees. In this case, we’ve zeroed in on the most common reason for hostages to be exchanged: as a means to guarantee a peace treaty.

In Wards & Wardens, hostages are a new type of relation somewhere between a prisoner and a foreign court guest. They reside at your court as a guest would, but cannot leave of their own accord, nor can they become knights. They are generally - though not always - children, and have found themselves in such a predicament due to their liege exchanging them away as a guarantee of non-hostility following a war, or exchanged via interaction during peacetime. Such an arrangement not only eases the mediation process, but also gives both sides some peace of mind.

hostage_window.png


Hostages are essentially living non-aggression pacts. Harming a hostage is a significant diplomatic incident, but it’s also a way to deter your former enemies from getting any more bright ideas about exactly to whom that border county belongs. Any ruler that you have a hostage from will suffer significant debuffs and penalties should they try and attack you - and any wardens attacking home courts also suffer similar debuffs - so hostages present one of the strongest forms of deterrent possible.

The hostages themselves are kept in line via something else new and shiny:


In Perpetuity

We have two types of Hook extant in the game already: Strong and Weak. The latter are the type of hooks you’d get if you were to, for example, manipulate a person in some way. They are single-use, and can be refused at cost. Strong hooks, on the other hand, can be used multiple times and in a range of scenarios, but are also much rarer.

Perpetual Hooks are a new sort of hook, which wardens can get on hostages who they treat well, and represent something of a middle ground. They are refuseable like Weak hooks, but also permanent like a Strong hook. At the moment hostages (and those that have previously been hostages) are the only characters you’d expect to see with a Perpetual hook, but just as Memories were built with expansion in mind for Friends & Foes, so too should you not be surprised if in the future you find more and wider examples of Perpetual hook usage.


What An Odd Fellow!

One of the spots that we’ve been somewhat hamstrung by in CKIII is in mediating the existence of characters that don’t quite… fit the mould, as it were.

eccentric_trait.png


In CKII, you’d have insane and possessed characters who did all kinds of wacky things - immortal horse chancellors and such; you know how it goes. CKIII’s takes a more grounded approach to how traits are represented: Lunatic, for example, was used increasingly loosely in CKII, ending up as an umbrella for anything ranging from slightly kooky to genuine mental illness, but CKIII sticks much more rigidly to the latter.

This is where the Eccentric trait comes in, as a trait dedicated to the slightly odd. This allows us to group some of the more unusual situations you’d find under this new personality trait, giving them both more reason to happen for a certain character but, critically, also barring those characters who wouldn’t engage in such strange distractions from doing so. We’ll talk about this more in the coming weeks!


A Midwife Crisis

As you might expect given how hostageship skews very much towards the young, a fair percentage of what we’ve been working on has been filling out the experience of non-adult existence in Crusader Kings III. We’ve come some way in this regard since release, with Friends & Foes adding a swathe of new events and a revamp of childhood personality traits, as well as of course the Regency mechanic giving a whole new layer of intrigue to a child navigating the dangerous Medieval world.

In Wards & Wardens, we’ve added to this with another fresh layer of childhood content - in no small part focused on hostages and their experiences - but also the addition of a Wet Nurse court position. Wet nurses held an interesting status amongst the medieval court, and adding this court position adds another layer of intricacy to the trials and tribulations of raising a child.

wet_nurse.png



Mature Students

We have been delighted to read just how much you all have been enjoying all the new - and the old! - activities in CKIII since the release of Tours & Tournaments. With this in mind, we’ve attempted to utilize it to approach something that’s previously been static in Crusader Kings: education as an adult.

university_visit.png


Previously, once you had come of age, an education type and rank was assigned to you and that was that. You, aged 16, were as educated as you’d ever become! Now, whilst properly reflecting the rate at which humans grow as people as they age is something of an impossible task for a game, the current system felt a little too rigid for our liking. As such, the Adult Education activity now gives players a chance to tickle their brains at a center of learning, in hope that they can actually upgrade their education trait to a higher level!

But what of those of us who enter adulthood with the finest education life has to offer? What steps can those people take to better themselves in adulthood?

Worry not. We have a plan for that, too, but it will have to wait!


Goodbye For Now

Thankfully, however, you won’t have to wait all too long. Whilst we’re saying bye for now, next week @Areysak will be taking us through the Adult Education Activity in CKIII from top to bottom. Hope to see you all then!
 
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what ARE the metrics for a high proficiency wet nurse? good physical health? traits like strong or athletic? or is it more geared toward being a good substitute parent and educator, intellect traits and the like?

actually i suddenly remembered also the ck2 childbirth event that allowed female rulers to choose to eschew the wetnurse in favour of nursing the child themselves. is there anything geared around that as a concept at all?
I imagine the number of children birthed will be one. Generally, you can't produce milk unless you have had at least one child.
Age too maybe?
 
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Really glad to hear about improving education traits, something I really liked seeing in CK2 was when by sticking to a lifestyle and working at it, I would become more educated, so it always felt weird to just stick at one level forever.
Seconded!
I hope it's going to be tied into the trait XP system in some capacity!
And not only because I suggested just that a few days ago!
 
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Hostages seem pretty great and really nice addition! Will there be peace deal options where a hostage is given?

I admit I have some reservations about the Perpetual Hooks, I like that they are refusable (imo all hooks should be) but don't love that they last forever. Treating a hostage well 10 years ago may not be important to that character now (depending of course on their traits). I think it'd be interesting in the future for hooks to take into account the personally of the hookee(?). I don't know how to solve within the current hook system design but something I've been thinking about after seemingly getting lots of hooks in my last play through, is how to make hooks a bit more dynamic and engaging as both the hook-haver and hookee
 
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It's not my fault everyone else voted wrong!

I have decided it is. It's all your fault. Specifically.

Interesting, the description of the Eccentric trait implies some of the sillier events may be locked behind it. Wonder if there will be a game rule to enable the trait. I don't mind the silly events but I know some people hate them.

Also, I really don't understand the Perpetual Hooks, but I suppose later DDs will give more info :)

Looking forward to this patch!

There's no game rule to enable the trait, but you're right that some of the more ridiculous events are indeed now locked behind it. Not a huge amount of them by any means, but anything that you'd think is particularly weird is a candidate for being Eccentric-locked.

It's actually quite a boon as a designer. We adhere more strictly to seriousness when it comes to our Lunatic trait in particular (compared to CKII, which used it really freely), so that left a real void to be filled. Eccentric sits in that void very nicely and gives us an outlet for kooky stuff but without it spilling over into those people who want their Count Chaddius Rex IV to be this po-faced death machine.
 
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I really love the direction CK3 is moving to. I admit I was afraid that you would simply rehash what had been done in CK2 but you've found new and exciting ideas to keep me captured.
I really love the new stuff coming with this.
Please more of this
 
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This looks promising, I love the idea of exchanging hostages!

Some suggestions:
-I hope you guys include events tied to cultural traditions in the new pack, that could be a cool way to make them more alive.
-I've wanted more use for piety/ devotion points for some time. Could you consider creating events where for example making a child adopt a virtuous trait would be easier with high level of devotion for the guardian?
-Make some new nuances to disinheritance desicions (it is a children related issue anyways!) Disinheriting a criminal should be easier than now, for normal heirs the cost could be even higher maybe than now.
 
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Seconded!
I hope it's going to be tied into the trait XP system in some capacity!
And not only because I suggested just that a few days ago!

Lemme nip this one in the bud right now: it isn't. That's not for lacking the idea - trust me, I was the one who rather enthusiastically took a day to see whether I could just wholesale retrofit it in - but it's simply not in scope for this DLC.

The education system is old, old mechanics, covered in cobwebs and shambling around with a walking stick. It can be done theoretically, but CKIII has since release attempted to have a 'if it's going to be done, do it right' approach to these things, so it was definitely not worth just slapping something together and throwing it out there to work somewhat questionably.

Maybe one day. Levelled traits are my baby, so I'd love the chance to do it, but essentially what I'm saying is it's no simple task.

Hostages seem pretty great and really nice addition! Will there be peace deal options where a hostage is given?

I admit I have some reservations about the Perpetual Hooks, I like that they are refusable (imo all hooks should be) but don't love that they last forever. Treating a hostage well 10 years ago may not be important to that character now (depending of course on their traits). I think it'd be interesting in the future for hooks to take into account the personally of the hookee(?). I don't know how to solve within the current hook system design but something I've been thinking about after seemingly getting lots of hooks in my last play through, is how to make hooks a bit more dynamic and engaging as both the hook-haver and hookee

The idea with Perpetual hooks is a bit more like "you spent your entire childhood with this person as your psuedo-parent", which innately makes for a fair amount of intrigue and interpersonal drama. It may not be 'important' in the moment, but when you spend many of your formative years building bonds with people it's gonna pull you one way or another at least a little bit well into adulthood.
 
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I have one request for this pack: can you make it more accessible who someone's Guardian was when they were growing up? Can just be whoever it was when they became an adult, if it makes it easier.

Maybe just as a Memory, or something like that. Just would be nice to be able to see who was raised by whom.
 
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Will there be a beta oppurtunity? Would love to have my better AI esutcation mods on steam updated at release day and from the looks of it this update will modify the education files so beta access would be very nice have in this case.
 
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I just havent seen such ways. I had multiple children that I wanted to fail, but events still had them talking friendly, their opinions of each others are high and etc. I know it's a roleplay thing, but it would be more dynamic if it had some mechanical influence.
You mean besides “Designate heir” with the proper CA? Personally I think that suffices mechanically.

I really love the direction CK3 is moving to. I admit I was afraid that you would simply rehash what had been done in CK2 but you've found new and exciting ideas to keep me captured.
I really love the new stuff coming with this.
Please more of this
Don’t get it twisted—we are absolutely still missing Sons of Abraham and Byz mechanics. I guess I erroneously thought they’d get the rehashed—but arguably still vital—elements of CK2 out of the way earlier on. Meantime I’m relying on the Holy Trinity and Rhomamoi mods to disappointing efficacy.
 
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I imagine the number of children birthed will be one. Generally, you can't produce milk unless you have had at least one child.
Age too maybe?
yeah like. idk i didnt want to turn my post into a preemptive critique by going off on one about how the human monkey is a disaster creature but im sort of hoping its more geared toward the good educator idea than the good at making tittay liquid idea. like dgmw, this what youve said here does make sense and i dont think id be against that as a prerequisite, but id fully hate it if aptitude was decided by some measure of physical fitness - no amount of jogging in the world is going to fix the issues some ladies can have with lactation (thats why good access to baby formula is so important in the modern era)
 
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Hostages are essentially living non-aggression pacts. Harming a hostage is a significant diplomatic incident, but it’s also a way to deter your former enemies from getting any more bright ideas about exactly to whom that border county belongs. Any ruler that you have a hostage from will suffer significant debuffs and penalties should they try and attack you - and any wardens attacking home courts also suffer similar debuffs - so hostages present one of the strongest forms of deterrent possible.
This seems really cool, but the deterrent part seems kind of pointless when the AI will never attack you because you're a player. It might stop the player from invading, but that's about it.
 
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If we have hostages, wouldn't it be nice if we have feuds and vendettas? For example you killed the son of a noble and his family becomes your feud. Over decades you have certain events and wars to get rid of them or asume peace.
Maybe with villians and vagabonds...
 
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Will it be possible to ask for your son's betrothed as a hostage? AFAIK it wasn't unusual for noble/royal girls to live at the home of their future husband, and of course we'd all like to be able to educate our daughters-in-law ourselves.
 
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Since this pack also focuses on raising a child, will there be a "favoritism" mechanics?

To put it simply - you play as Denethor (Lord of the Rings, if someone isnt familiar or doesnt remmeber the names), you absolutely adore Boromir, but you hate Faramir with your guts, even if he's your last heir. This kind of favoritism.
I know it will feel a bit tangent to the topic, but bear with me.
Denethor's relationship with Faramir was actually more complex than that, at least in the books. He loved Faramir, but he was also very aware that Faramir was unlike him, and also not destined to rule. His great regret was to let Boromir go to Rivendell. And in fact, everything indicates that Faramir should have been the one to go to Rivendell: he wasn't the heir, he was a friend to Gandalf, and more open to Gondor's allies than Boromir and Denethor.

In other words, Boromir was the favourite not because Denethor loved him and hated his brother, but because Boromir was more like him, and was the elder. In CK3 it works the same, you tend to favour the natural heir, and your character tend to like more characters that are like them. I don't think we need a favouritism mechanic. We already have the mechanics to cover it. Denethor doesn't need additional mechanics to be closer to Boromir, while still loving Faramir as his brilliant son. It wasn't an arbitrary choice from Denethor.
 
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what ARE the metrics for a high proficiency wet nurse? good physical health? traits like strong or athletic? or is it more geared toward being a good substitute parent and educator, intellect traits and the like?

actually i suddenly remembered also the ck2 childbirth event that allowed female rulers to choose to eschew the wetnurse in favour of nursing the child themselves. is there anything geared around that as a concept at all?
oh actually, another thing i just remembered and wanted to ask about: in the premodern world, there were some CONCEPTS surrounding the idea of shared wetnurses. some cultures regarded sexual contact between people who shared a wetnurse as fully incestuous, for instance, even if there was no blood relation. iirc there were whole laws constructed around ideas like this. does anything in the pack touch on any part of this? some events about pseudo-sibling relationships formed by characters with the same wetnurse would be fun i think, this kinda thing is a cool jumping off point for a lot of ideas
 
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oh actually, another thing i just remembered and wanted to ask about: in the premodern world, there were some CONCEPTS surrounding the idea of shared wetnurses. some cultures regarded sexual contact between people who shared a wetnurse as fully incestuous, for instance, even if there was no blood relation. iirc there were whole laws constructed around ideas like this. does anything in the pack touch on any part of this? some events about pseudo-sibling relationships formed by characters with the same wetnurse would be fun i think, this kinda thing is a cool jumping off point for a lot of ideas

Good knowledge! I'll let later DDs cover it in detail, but if I remember correctly we do have a few bits of content surrounding that particular aspect.
 
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