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Dev Diary #136 - Our Vision for Persia

Greetings!

It is time to dive into the upcoming Flavor Pack - Legacy of Persia - giving a brief overview of the why and the what! The region has a rich and vibrant history making it both exciting and interesting to work with, not the least because it differs significantly from the regions we've chosen to cover in the past - Persia lies at the crossroads of the world, with a multitude of external influences combined with strong local traditions. Naturally while our focus has been on the Persian region itself, we've also aimed to shake up a portion of the world at large by revising how the Clan government works, so even if you're not playing in the Persian region there's something new and exciting to experience.

Co-writing this Dev Diary with me is Lucas Ribeiro - our skilled and multitalented 2D Art Lead at PDX Studio Black, who has been deeply involved with many of the features of this pack!


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So, why Persia?

For starters, our data pointed out that Persia is already a very popular starting location for our players. The region is within the top ten most picked starting locations and the most popular one outside of Europe.
Despite originally not having much flavor dedicated to the area and no bookmark characters attached to it, our players were still going for Persia playthroughs. There’s no better endorsement of the interest in the region than that!

But, player data aside, all history enthusiasts know how rich and interesting Persia is, even more so during Crusader Kings III’s time period. We saw this as a chance to create very interesting gameplay opportunities.
At the 867 game start, the Abbasid Caliphate is reeling from the Anarchy at Samarra. A moment in history when many Caliphs fell victim to a deadly struggle for power while insurrectionists raged up and down the Tigris and the Euphrates, such as the Kharijite and the Zanj Rebellions. Meanwhile in the east, Iranian rulers rose to challenge the Abbasid Authority. This time period, known as the Iranian Intermezzo saw a partial revival of Iranian culture with the ascension of the Saffarid and Samanid dynasties. About a century after the start date of 867, the Iranian Daylamite Buyids came to power, subjugating the Abassid Caliphate.
This Iranian comeback is then cut short by the Seljuk Invasion. A dynasty of turkic warrior nomads take over Persia and the Levant, submitting both Arabs and Iranians to their rule. Further on the east the Ghaznavids defeat the Samanids, cementing the end of the Iranian Intermezzo and leading into the state of Persia as we see in the 1066 start. The Buyids are not playable on the 867 start, as their founder, a warrior from the mountains of Daylam had yet to leap into history. But a last holdout of the dynasty can be found in Shiraz at the 1066 start.


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Clan Government Rework

Since the area of the flavor pack is almost entirely made up of Clan Rulers, for Legacy of Persia, we have decided to reimagine how the Clan government works.

Our aim is to more closely represent the familial struggles of the powerful clans of the time and the bureaucratic apparatus that backed their interests.

The Clan government is now directly tied to how your house members interact with each other. Each house will have a Unity Level that can be changed by intervention of the house head and by its members treating each other kindly or badly. A harmonious clan will have a consolidated succession, while an antagonistic one, not so much!

Clan rulers employ an office of bureaucrats, their Tax Collectors, to levy troops and coin from their vassals. The competence of a Tax Collector will dictate how much they manage to extract from the vassals assigned to them. Each Tax Collector manages a Jurisdiction with an associated Tax Decree. For example: You might want to place all your non-muslim vassals in a Jurisdiction with the Jizya Decree and maximize your gold income.

More details on the Clan Government design on a future dev diary.


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Iranian-Heritage Cultures

Persia and its surrounding areas are populated by a variety of different iranian-heritage cultures. We strived to give each one of them an original combination of cultural traditions that allow for a variety of new playstyles. The Kurds with their hard-to-convert culture and mountain cavalry, the Daylamites with their two-pronged spear wielding mercenaries and so on.
Persian culture, of course, received special attention. With new traditions about their famous scholarly pursuits and elaborate systems of water cooling and irrigation.

Iranian cultures have also received new clothes, headgears, hairstyles, beards and unit models, making them more appropriately distinct from the Arabic cultures. Also, due to their importance in the region, Turkic cultures have also received some sorely-missed assets, such as the Sharbush hat and the very recognizable Seljuk braids.


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Islam and Zoroastrianism


In Crusader Kings’ 3 starting date of 867, Islam has been the dominant religion of the upper classes in Persia for over a century. Still, Zoroastrian practices are still very much alive and widespread in the peasantry. We’ve done a general pass on religion in the region, adjusting provinces and characters to a more accurate historical representation. Tenets and doctrines for both Islam and Zoroastrianism have also received lots of adjustments and tweaks. Jizya, for example, has been moved to a tax jurisdiction type unlocked for muslim clan rulers. Both religions have received new decisions and events to flesh them out some more. They’re also strongly tied to the Struggle system in the region, speaking of which…


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A New Struggle, the Iranian Intermezzo

With Legacy of Persia, we are bringing a new Struggle, the Iranian Intermezzo.

This struggle seeks to represent the historical dissolution of the Caliphal authority over Persia and the ascension of new, powerful, Iranian Rulers In the 9th and 10th centuries. It also reflects a shorter historical period when compared to Fate of Iberia’s Struggle, so it is likely to be resolved more briefly and intensely.

Unlike Fate of Iberia, participant characters are clearly divided into factions. The Caliphal Supporters against the Detractors. A lot of new interactions are unlocked by this dynamic, such as convincing a character to switch sides, sponsoring turkic invasions against supporters, or waging war to install Caliphal Supporters.

The struggle has three phases, Unrest, Stabilization and Concession. The Concession phase is of a new type, a so-called Ending Phase. If a struggle gets to an Ending Phase, it will instantly trigger an ending. So, unlike Struggle Ending Decisions, where there is a dominant character that pushes the button to trigger it, every involved character can contribute to an Ending Phase by triggering relevant catalysts.

We have designed four struggle endings (three as decisions, one as an ending phase), which can be pursued in different ways, depending on the personal perspective of your character.

Will the Caliph be able to reestablish their power over the region? Will a powerful Shia ruler overtake the Sunni, creating a new Caliphate? Maybe an Iranian ruler will usher in an era of Persian dominance, forever boosting cultures of Iranian-heritage? Or, a Sunni Caliphal Detractor might oust the Caliph and take their place as head of faith?

In the Iranian Intermezzo Struggle we went for a more nuanced, granular approach, where the endings are subdivided into options that have different effects, according to your character’s culture, religion and whether they are part of the Supporter or Detractor faction.


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New 867 Bookmark

With Legacy of Persia we are adding a new bookmark, the Persian Revival, with five Iranian-heritage characters to choose from. These were picked both for their historical importance and to provide for a wide variety of gameplay styles.

In the mountains of Daylam we see a fan favorite, Rostam Bavandid, one of the last Sassanids in the game and a secret Zoroastrian. A great character if you are going for a “Sassanian Restoration” style playthrough.

In the southern reaches of Persia, Muhammad of the Tahirids is a loyal vassal and supporter of the Caliphate. His nephew, though, rules an independent emirate in Khorasan and is desperate for help against the invading Saffarids. This character was a great pick for us, since he’s split between internal and external conflicts in the Caliphate.

Since we mentioned Saffarids, we have Yaqub, the coppersmith. This lowly peasant rose to power through extraordinary military prowess. In one of his many battles, he was swordstruck and horribly disfigured. But, despite all these difficulties, this upstart is pushing back against the might of the Abbasids. He was an obvious choice for us, since he is an interesting historical figure and a sort of folk hero of the Iranian traditions, having restored Persian as the official dialect of the region (after it was supplanted by Arabic).

Next, we have one that will be familiar to the achievement hunters, Suri of the Ghurids. Although historically Suri is mostly known for running away from the Saffarids and hiding at his buddy Abdullah Habbari’s court, his dynasty eventually grew into a huge Empire. Being Tajik and Mahayana, he’s stuck between the Muslim and the Buddhist world, creating opportunities for interesting gameplay. There’s also a lot of juicy mines in the region that Suri can go claim and fuel his future conquests. Good luck to all players out there going for the “Rise of the Ghurids” achievement!

Lastly, we have Ismail of the Samanids. Despite being distant in the line of succession, historically Ismail came to supplant all of his relatives and assume control of his brother’s Emirate. The Samanids under Ismail grew into a true empire, only to be overtaken later by the Ghaznavids and the Seljuks. An interpretation of Ismail’s likeness can now be seen stamped on the Tajikistani currency, the Somoni, which is named after his dynasty.



That's it for this time! More details will follow soon!
 
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In 867 the multicultural, cosmopolitan Tang dynasty was a distant memory. The later Tang period was insular and wary of non-chinese after the An Lushan Rebellion and related chaos. Not to mention the sacking(repeatedly) of Chang'an, if there was a "Persian Manor" set aside for the descendants of Narsieh it was almost certainly destroyed. Not to mention they intermarried with Han chinese anyway, any descendant of Narsieh should be a chinese noble with a chinese name and clothing style, at best an oddity where you can scroll through their ancestors and eventually find Narsieh.
any descendants of Persians probably wouldn’t be part of the ruling class.
 
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That’s very interesting data, and finally a Persia DLC makes sense to me; I would never have guessed it was so popular! I would love to see the list of the Top 20 most-played areas, which I assume would give us a good idea of what is likely to be on your To-Do List for the next few years.
A lot of people enjoyed playing Zoroastrians in CK2 after The Old Gods expansion came out (and then when the 700's bookmark, and the ability to do false conversions were added, they became even more viable).

I'm one of them, and while it may be ahistorical (I don't know the history of the region well enough to comment) I appreciate that they're putting in an option for doing a 'Zoroastrian restoration'.

Though I think I'll give the copper-smith a try too. If only because he's the 2nd most historically famous copper smith I've ever heard of (not that there's many of them).
 
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I have to say that I understand the focus on the Persian culture but imo with the Turks playing a big role in that region as well it seems like they are getting not enough love.

It's too soon to say.

They mentioned that the Turks will be getting some attention, and that it will be talked about in a later Dev Diary.
 
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With the DLC out on the 9th, we have 3-4 dev diaries left. I assume that one of those will be art, we know one will be on the clan updates, possibly a struggle deep dive, then what? Obviously the changelog but I'm not counting that as a DD.

I'm actually looking forward to this because the new clan updates will make Rurick's second choice more interesting. It's just a shame I can't start that campaign now.
 
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any chance of the last Sassanid, we know that Narsieh's descendants lived in China. It would be nice to be able to play as his grandson for the 867 scenario
I understand the appeal but I feel like that suggestion falls too far into "wacky meme content" territory for a lot of people's liking.
 
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Greetings!

It is time to dive into the upcoming Flavor Pack - Legacy of Persia - giving a brief overview of the why and the what! The region has a rich and vibrant history making it both exciting and interesting to work with, not the least because it differs significantly from the regions we've chosen to cover in the past - Persia lies at the crossroads of the world, with a multitude of external influences combined with strong local traditions. Naturally while our focus has been on the Persian region itself, we've also aimed to shake up a portion of the world at large by revising how the Clan government works, so even if you're not playing in the Persian region there's something new and exciting to experience.

Co-writing this Dev Diary with me is Lucas Ribeiro - our skilled and multitalented 2D Art Lead at PDX Studio Black, who has been deeply involved with many of the features of this pack!


View attachment 1029525

So, why Persia?

For starters, our data pointed out that Persia is already a very popular starting location for our players. The region is within the top ten most picked starting locations and the most popular one outside of Europe.
Despite originally not having much flavor dedicated to the area and no bookmark characters attached to it, our players were still going for Persia playthroughs. There’s no better endorsement of the interest in the region than that!
Can someone please tell me why people would willingly play as clan outside of a love of self torture? See below post for my complaint. I tried one Muslim Iberian start, and then went quickly back to my Norse or Hellenic playthoughs because I do not have the same love of torturing myself.
Clan Government Rework

Since the area of the flavor pack is almost entirely made up of Clan Rulers, for Legacy of Persia, we have decided to reimagine how the Clan government works.

Our aim is to more closely represent the familial struggles of the powerful clans of the time and the bureaucratic apparatus that backed their interests.

The Clan government is now directly tied to how your house members interact with each other. Each house will have a Unity Level that can be changed by intervention of the house head and by its members treating each other kindly or badly. A harmonious clan will have a consolidated succession, while an antagonistic one, not so much!

Clan rulers employ an office of bureaucrats, their Tax Collectors, to levy troops and coin from their vassals. The competence of a Tax Collector will dictate how much they manage to extract from the vassals assigned to them. Each Tax Collector manages a Jurisdiction with an associated Tax Decree. For example: You might want to place all your non-muslim vassals in a Jurisdiction with the Jizya Decree and maximize your gold income.

More details on the Clan Government design on a future dev diary.
please, Please, PLEASE tell me you are scrapping the alliances with clan vassals. That is the one reason I could never play as a clan government. Why waste your children on useless internal alliances when you could just get external alliances to deal with the inevitable revolts?
 
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Can someone please tell me why people would willingly play as clan outside of a love of self torture? See below post for my complaint. I tried one Muslim Iberian start, and then went quickly back to my Norse or Hellenic playthoughs because I do not have the same love of torturing yourself?
The only reason I played a few campaigns as clan was achievement hunting. But clan really is annoying currently. I basically ignored internal alliances in favor of strong external ones. But that also meant having to constantly sway powerful vassals. Not a fun time. I basically stopped the campaign as soon as I had the achievement.
 
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A lot of people enjoyed playing Zoroastrians in CK2 after The Old Gods expansion came out (and then when the 700's bookmark, and the ability to do false conversions were added, they became even more viable).

I'm one of them, and while it may be ahistorical (I don't know the history of the region well enough to comment) I appreciate that they're putting in an option for doing a 'Zoroastrian restoration'.
A Zoroastrian restoration is completely plausible - it was the faith of the majority of the population, particularly in the 867 start. There were still some Zoroastrian or Zoroastrian-related rulers holding out in the Gilan and Tabaristan area well into the game's timeline. And at least one (Mardavij of the Ziyarids) harbored ambitions of restoring Zoroastrian rule throughout Iran.

What would be ahistorical would be making a Zoroastrian restoration into an Achaemenid-revival cosplay. Unlike for instance the Byzantines, medieval Persians didn't have written records of the past, and they didn't have access to the Greek writings that did preserve their ancient history. The Shahnama reflects how they thought about the past, and it shows glorious mythical native kings and some dim echoes of historical events (like Alexander making an appearance as the half-brother of Darius and fighting him for the throne). All that to say, a restored Zoroastrian empire would look to secure its borders from Arabs and Turks, but wouldn't be dressing up as Cyrus and trying to get revenge on the Greeks.
 
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Can someone please tell me why people would willingly play as clan outside of a love of self torture? See below post for my complaint. I tried one Muslim Iberian start, and then went quickly back to my Norse or Hellenic playthoughs because I do not have the same love of torturing myself.

please, Please, PLEASE tell me you are scrapping the alliances with clan vassals. That is the one reason I could never play as a clan government. Why waste your children on useless internal alliances when you could just get external alliances to deal with the inevitable revolts?
Clans are the permanent tribal gov-type. As long as you aren't monogamous, you easily have enough children for your powerful vassals and to secure external alliances. You scale exceeding well and get the invasion CB, which gives you two kingdom-level wars per character (if you border someone hostile to your religion).

Clan can be swingy, but generally, after 90-100 years, clans are more powerful than feudal rulers.
 
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I have to say, as someone who doesn't play 867, I will be seriously disappointed if we don't get more Seljuk flavor for 1066. It makes so much sense for there to be a better modelling of the Seljuk invasions of Anatolia and Armenia.

The Seljuks, for all intents and purposes, WERE the Persian empire during the 1066 start and if any flavor for that date is going to be added, it has to be that one.

I was really hoping for a struggle to simulate the Seljuk Byzantine conflict, but with that chance looking slim now, give us a well-made mechanic at least!
 
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While I definitely understand why some players want this, IMO dynamic, organic Struggles would probably be a bad idea. The point of them is to be unique content for a few regions in order to help model historical situations that don't fit neatly into normal gameplay. I'm concerned that a dynamic Struggle system would just lead to them being spammed all over the place.
I absolutely agree with the argument that such events should not be spam.
Please think:
you want to see unique and premeditated wrestling events that reflect historical events.
I agree, it's a great thing.

In addition, some players want to see how their actions on the world map lead to the beginning of more global and difficult to resolve situations, that their roleplaying can affect not only situationally at a small level, but also lead to a “world fire”

Spamming such events can indeed be a problem. Well, limiting the number of different types of struggle in regions, limiting the start of struggle from each type of culture and religion can help. And these are just approximate considerations. You can approach the restrictions better.

My argument:
pre-orchestrated struggles are interesting to participate in and role-play.
understanding that your roleplaying and actions can lead to serious consequences in the form of plunging the region into struggle is also interesting for roleplaying and gaming experience.
OF COURSE, you need to do it right so that there is no spam.
 
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With the DLC out on the 9th, we have 3-4 dev diaries left. I assume that one of those will be art, we know one will be on the clan updates, possibly a struggle deep dive, then what? Obviously the changelog but I'm not counting that as a DD.

I'm actually looking forward to this because the new clan updates will make Rurick's second choice more interesting. It's just a shame I can't start that campaign now.
I think you called it.

Today is about Clans. That leaves the next 3 weeks of announcements to cover Struggle, Art, and Changelog.
 
I think you called it.

Today is about Clans. That leaves the next 3 weeks of announcements to cover Struggle, Art, and Changelog.
I get that mechanics take work, but if this is true, it is just too little for what's missing here.
 
Clans are the permanent tribal gov-type. As long as you aren't monogamous, you easily have enough children for your powerful vassals and to secure external alliances. You scale exceeding well and get the invasion CB, which gives you two kingdom-level wars per character (if you border someone hostile to your religion).

Clan can be swingy, but generally, after 90-100 years, clans are more powerful than feudal rulers.
I guess you've never had the Empire of the North Seas (in a non-Ironman run) and ruled over not just the North Seas Empire, but Britannia, Scandinavia, France, Hispania (doing the Interloper struggle ending), Italia (to get rid of that annoying Pope and his crusades) and the HRE. You've also never handed out all your extra kingdom titles to your children, then tried to form alliances between your children. I've seen upwards of -1500 "Too Many Alliances" modifiers. That's 50% MORE that the Evil faith modifier. There's no amount of diplomatic skill or perks that will overcome that. And those are internal alliances (granted, since it's not liege/vassal alliances, those are actually useful).
I'm sorry, but unless you can explain how clans are more powerful than feudal (aside from just more legitimate children, and let's not forget India, which has the benefits of both polygamy AND not being clan), I just don't see it.
 
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dont forgert the new idea about convert faith and culture decision to manage who will join or not convert because for holy building others faith benifet and please change arrainge marriage hotile faith remove for vassel and alliance and friend
 
I guess you've never had the Empire of the North Seas (in a non-Ironman run) and ruled over not just the North Seas Empire, but Britannia, Scandinavia, France, Hispania (doing the Interloper struggle ending), Italia (to get rid of that annoying Pope and his crusades) and the HRE. You've also never handed out all your extra kingdom titles to your children, then tried to form alliances between your children. I've seen upwards of -1500 "Too Many Alliances" modifiers. That's 50% MORE that the Evil faith modifier. There's no amount of diplomatic skill or perks that will overcome that. And those are internal alliances (granted, since it's not liege/vassal alliances, those are actually useful).
I'm sorry, but unless you can explain how clans are more powerful than feudal (aside from just more legitimate children, and let's not forget India, which has the benefits of both polygamy AND not being clan), I just don't see it.
Generally speaking, a realm will have more troops and raise more taxes being a clan. I've also never had internal "too many allies" in clan. I don't think it's a thing. External allies count only, which means you can pick up loads of ally vassals and have a stable realm.

As I've said a lot recently, clans are swingy. Succession is harder for a clan ruler, but you quickly get strong enough and internally stable.

Also, sounds to me like you might be having vassal limit issues. If you want to blob, doing so responsibly and several large kingdom vassals instead of many small vassal kings is more stable, unless you want to renoun farm.

As for your comment about my gameplay, here is my most recent blob. Blobbing is easy, and that was a very stable realm. It was feudal, but I've run clan, restoring Slavia and holding BYZ, Arabia, Persia and Kazaria and it's fine. If you want consistent power instead of highs and lows, that's fine, but that doesn't make clan bad, just means it doesn't suit your play style.

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Generally speaking, a realm will have more troops and raise more taxes being a clan. I've also never had internal "too many allies" in clan. I don't think it's a thing. External allies count only, which means you can pick up loads of ally vassals and have a stable realm.
Maybe? I'll test it. I do know that my Queens did have too many allies when they allied, but I usually marry my daughters THEN land them, not the reverse. My religion does accept incest, AND I use a mod that increases the number of wives/concubines a ruler can have.
As I've said a lot recently, clans are swingy. Succession is harder for a clan ruler, but you quickly get strong enough and internally stable.

Also, sounds to me like you might be having vassal limit issues. If you want to blob, doing so responsibly and several large kingdom vassals instead of many small vassal kings is more stable, unless you want to renoun farm.
I'm not having vassal issues in my North Seas runs. I may have increased the vassal limit, but I don't think so. And in my Abbasid run, I don't think I had vassal issues (atleast as far as vassal limit goes, I certianly had issues where every month it seems like I'd end up with a completely different powerful vassals) there either, but I don't think I played a year before realizing I don't want to waste my children in useless internal aaliances, and I hate that "No Alliance as Powerful Clan Vassal" opinion modifier.
As for your comment about my gameplay, here is my most recent blob. Blobbing is easy, and that was a very stable realm. It was feudal, but I've run clan, restoring Slavia and holding BYZ, Arabia, Persia and Kazaria and it's fine. If you want consistent power instead of highs and lows, that's fine, but that doesn't make clan bad, just means it doesn't suit your play style.
No, clan's bad, simply because I'd rather have allies I could assist and who could assist me, rather than useless internal ones (even if I never use them in my runs. I ally with the King of Scotland, but never bother calling him into my wars, because what's the point?).
And you've blobbed pretty big. Bigger than I have, but I honestly don't really go beyond Europe. And I only grab Hispania to end the struggle there (and it secures my SW flank). Francia is the same, but it's also a great jumping off place for my invasion of the HRE so I can found the Archduchy of Austria to get out of confederate partition. Britannia is like "why not? I already have England, so why not gobble up the rest of the British Isles?" And Scandinavia gives me a consistent border.
 
A Zoroastrian restoration is completely plausible - it was the faith of the majority of the population, particularly in the 867 start. There were still some Zoroastrian or Zoroastrian-related rulers holding out in the Gilan and Tabaristan area well into the game's timeline. And at least one (Mardavij of the Ziyarids) harbored ambitions of restoring Zoroastrian rule throughout Iran.

What would be ahistorical would be making a Zoroastrian restoration into an Achaemenid-revival cosplay. Unlike for instance the Byzantines, medieval Persians didn't have written records of the past, and they didn't have access to the Greek writings that did preserve their ancient history. The Shahnama reflects how they thought about the past, and it shows glorious mythical native kings and some dim echoes of historical events (like Alexander making an appearance as the half-brother of Darius and fighting him for the throne). All that to say, a restored Zoroastrian empire would look to secure its borders from Arabs and Turks, but wouldn't be dressing up as Cyrus and trying to get revenge on the Greeks.

The Dev Diary mentioned Rostam Bavandid, so I would assume any Zoroastrian revival would take more inspiration from the Sassanid era than the Achaemenid.

Others have commented on whether Rostam was actually a secret Zoroastrian, which is one of the things I don't know enough about to get involved in.
 
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