CO Word of the Week #9

[cubanbread3]

@co_avanya @co_martsu
1. How many devs are currently working for CO?
2. How many are directly working on fixing game/bug reports?
3. How many are directly working on DLC/asset and map editor/content release?
4. How many are directly working on the console port?
5. Why is the development timeline so long on all aspects listed above?
6. Why wasn't said timeline mentioned prior to launch?
7. Can we expect changes to be made in your time management system to expedite quicker patches and content?
8. Will you ever admit that the way you are handling this is infuriating the community and make changes to how you interact with your customers?
9. Are there any talks with Paradox regarding refunds/partial refunds/loss leader DLC releases as content?
10. Is CO still committed to a 10 year life cycle for this game, or will you pull the plug after contractual obligations (preorder DLC/console release) are met?
11. Will you ever post more than twice in one of these threads?
12. Is increasing the communication with your customer base a priority?
13. Was there a massive, all-hands-on-deck review of last weeks and this weeks WOTW by your staff to gain a better understanding of why we are all p*ssed off?
14. If there was... why is this week's post more of the same?

If you answer all of these questions, it would go a long way to helping generate trust here, especially if we know that changes ARE being made. That simple commitment, and following through on it with full transparency, would help inspire confidence in the continued longevity and worthiness of this game for many here.

The current "CO way", from customer interaction, to bug fixing, to project implementation, to... well just about everything that we can see, is NOT working and the community has spoken through these threads, and by a cratered player count on Steam. It's not a good game - you need to a) admit it, b) apologize for it, and c) try to make it right for the first wave of people to play it. If you don't, there won't be a second wave on consoles, or people returning once DLCs are released. If there is no income from those due to the chronic mishandling of all aspects of game development - how do you expect to stay open to release more content? This is an existential threat to your company's survival. What you are doing currently is not enough.

If you are having manpower issues - ADMIT IT, and then post job openings. Do work to make this game better. Hire people who know how to resurrect a dead IP, and have them organize a way to fix all the issues. Find a way to save the game... because if we're waiting a YEAR for assets, your modding community will be non-existent, your vaunted Paradox Mods will be a ghost town, and your playerbase non-existent.

Looks like they may have lost someone or are at least trying to add new staff: https://colossalorder.fi/?page_id=1676

 

[TripleAgent]

I think around toxicity in the community too, not one person on this forum is directing their anger/frustration towards the developers of the game. I don't doubt for one minute they work around the clock under immense pressure from this awful launch of the game. It seems an industry trend whereby executives and shareholders push releases of games in frankly a pre-beta state to maximise profits. Senior executives within CO and Paradox made this decision and unfortunately the 'little guys' get the fallout of bad decisions. The tone deaf mention of console release (to get more revenue) & DLC (to get more revenue), really is in bad taste too. Cyberpunk not only offered refunds, but also didn't release any DLC until the game was years further into development and in a good state.

This is important to note. No one here is mad at the devs. We are mad at CO/PDX and the executives who oversaw this and were the ones that actually took our money for this product after the misleading communications.

It's not _completely_ wrong and may depend on the region you are in.

In general, as I know it from Germany, the manufacturer is responsible but the retailer is the processor. Retailer and manufacturer have a framework contract so that the retailer gets compensated for any costs they may have while processing warranty issues.

Assume you buy a car - a Dodge for example.
Will you go to Michigan if it has a defect in the warranty period? Or will you go to your local retailer/garage for repairs?

Of course there are some differences with online purchases and especially with digital products like we are discussing here, but the general chain of "customer <-> retailer <-> manufacturer" remains in place.

(Not mentioning the cases where vendor and manufacturer are the same legal person)

This entire vendor/manufacturer discussion seems moot though because it's clear that the developer/publisher is able to independently issue refunds for Steam. Creative Assembly literally just gave everyone who bought Pharaoh: Total War a partial refund because of the issues with the game. It's absolutely possible, we just saw it happen, but it takes the people making the game telling Steam "we want to refund our players."

 

[Hobbel68]

It's not _completely_ wrong and may depend on the region you are in.

In general, as I know it from Germany, the manufacturer is responsible but the retailer is the processor. Retailer and manufacturer have a framework contract so that the retailer gets compensated for any costs they may have while processing warranty issues.

Assume you buy a car - a Dodge for example.
Will you go to Michigan if it has a defect in the warranty period? Or will you go to your local retailer/garage for repairs?

Of course there are some differences with online purchases and especially with digital products like we are discussing here, but the general chain of "customer <-> retailer <-> manufacturer" remains in place.

(Not mentioning the cases where vendor and manufacturer are the same legal person)

Indeed, thats what i tried to say, but in the end always the manufacturer is responsible. but it is not up to the consumer to claim directly through the manufacturer. that's the responsibility for the Seller.
and European Law is adjusted since 2022 to better protect consumers. Now online sellers/retailers are in the european Warranty policies and is protected for 2 years , so also for SW , Games and so on.
So in this case , a respecfull claim can be succesfull at the reseller, but PI and CO also have 2 Years to make a product (game) working, since the new law also says that the consumer has to patch and install all necessary sw to make it work. But that will be discussion .
As long as CSII does not work like it was intended in the release, all have the right to ask for a refund. if it will be allowed depends on the retailer and how well he follows the law.
But it is up to PI and CO to turn around all negativity and make it a success as CS1.
I would say , let's await the next Patch and fixes and see what they come up their sleeve.

 

[Civ5rako]

First, please allow me to tell you that I am a player of Cities: Skylines 1 with more than 3000 hours.
Being a gamer since 1983, I typically don't preorder, but for Cities: Skylines 2 I was considering to make an exception - which I finally did not and now I am more than happy that I didn't.

Last week we had in-depth conversations with our publisher Paradox Interactive on the priorities and goals for Cities: Skylines II for 2024.

Yes, I can imagine that there have been some discussions.
To me, this very much reads like you had to tell them that the repair operations will take the whole current year (more on this later).

To summarize on the priorities of the modding support:

1. Public Beta version of code modding and Paradox Mods will be available in the live build by the end of March
2. Public Beta version of Map editing available in the live build together with code modding or soon after
3. Public Beta version of Asset editing to be announced, only after the technical issues are sorted can we roll out the tool
4. Continue to work on the modding support and get out of the Beta stage during the Finnish fall.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but to me it reads like:
1. By the end of March customers can expect a BETA of the Paradox Mods and a BETA of code modding access (so, neither will have full functionality).
2. Map editing may not be available (even not as a BETA) before Paradox Mods and code modding have been finally released (= are out of BETA)
3. BETA of asset editing is in the stars (see pt. 4)
4. Get out of BETA stage (for what? Code modding, Paradox Mods or everything mentioned before?) during Finnish Fall, which seems to translate to "latest at the end of November 2024"

In total, my interpretation is that we as customers (or ones who had planned to become a customer for Cities: Skylines 2) will have to wait until end of November before we can expect the game to be fully functional. We are talking about the basic game here, no new functionality (like per DLC and so on) added.
That means that a game having been released in October 2023 will (hopefully) be fully functional at the end of November 2024.

The work on the console versions is ongoing and while gated by the modding support we’re making progress. We’re not committing to any timelines as there are too many unknowns at this time, but we’ll keep you updated and will communicate the moment we have something to share.

I am not a console player, but that does sound like console versions might come even later?

Before those bigger releases, we’ll have one more patch coming out.

Does that mean that there will be just one patch before end of March?

After this, we’ll include the bug fixes and performance improvements in the releases to reduce the amount of individual patches.

That does sound very much like there will not be any "stand alone" patches anymore.

I have been working in a major software company for 20 years and I can understand that sometimes things aren't going as initially planned.
But in your video about the making of Cities: Skylines 2 you admitted that you were 3 years behind planning. To this, we now have to add another year.

Having had to deal with angry and disappointed customers myself several times, I only can strongly recommend to refrain from comments and remarks like "this game may be not for you", "toxicity" or "high customer expectations" in the future.

At the time of writing this, there are 11,000 players for Cities: Skylines 1 and a mere 7,000 for Cities: Skylines 2, which is constantly dropping ( link to Steam Charts removed as there seems to be an issue with the spam filter)

As stated above, I was full of hope and expectation for Cities: Skylines 2 and I really, really hope that this trend can be reversed.

 

[purplegamer]

These two statements seem to be in direct conflict with each other. I find it difficult to believe that CO was so out of touch with Paradox's marketing that nobody at CO was aware of the multiple, repeated promises of modding availability soon after release, both in streams and published articles. This wasn't an isolated incident where Maddie made an off-hand comment in one stream. It was said multiple times in multiple official text publications immediately prior to release.

I, too, would like to see a response to this as there's a clear disconnected between the statements being made.

 

[ImanIdgit]

@co_martsu, @co_avanya:

I have a question about a few of CS2's recent Twitter posts.
The most recent post states this: "Steam user Crocodile_Boy has used the built-in quays to create an amazing multi-level waterfront. What are some of your favourite ways to use quays?".
I was under the impression that Quays were not yet a part of CS2. So, my question is this: Which is it... No quays or built-in quays?
I understand the ability to make "quays" using terraforming and road tools, but this isn't really a 'built-in quays' feature, is it?
To me, this reeks of deception. However, I always try to give the benefit of the doubt to everyone.
I have seen 3 posts from CS2 about quays and need some sort of clarification about this 'feature'.
Can anybody please clear up my confusion?

 

[unmerged(524934)]

@co_martsu, @co_avanya:

I have a question about a few of CS2's recent Twitter posts.
The most recent post states this: "Steam user Crocodile_Boy has used the built-in quays to create an amazing multi-level waterfront. What are some of your favourite ways to use quays?".
I was under the impression that Quays were not yet a part of CS2. So, my question is this: Which is it... No quays or built-in quays?
I understand the ability to make "quays" using terraforming and road tools, but this isn't really a 'built-in quays' feature, is it?
To me, this reeks of deception. However, I always try to give the benefit of the doubt to everyone.
I have seen 3 posts from CS2 about quays and need some sort of clarification about this 'feature'.
Can anybody please clear up my confusion?

I've not seen the post, but I'd assume it's not quay walls as we would understand them from CS1, rather it's using the retaining walls functionality built into the road system to spoof it.

City Planner Plays does exactly this in his latest video (start around here-ish

to build a river port in Magnolia County. I'm not sure I'd have the patience to go through all this just to make it look like there are some quay walls, but it's pretty clever how he makes it work.

 

[sys_64738]

Hi folks,

honestly, this is really hard to stomach right now...

Sorry for being impolite, but I think it's better for me to play CS:1 another year and pretend that this game hasn't be released yet.

I knew that there is no miracle solution to fix these issues in a few weeks, but the assumed timeline from March to fall is... as I said: This is hard to stomach.

Also, that there will be only one last patch for a long time. For all these issues!...

Again: I'm very sorry for my outburst, but this announcement just hit me like a hammer and I really needed to vent a bit.

I didn't expect the situation to be messed up this hard.

Nonetheless best regards,
sys

 

[safe-keeper]

Seriously, while CS2 is fun and all even with all its flaws, the only thing really holding me back from going back to CS1 is that getting my old save to run with all its old mods and assets turned out to be quite a big undertaking. Maybe I should give it another shot, though. Doesn't look like CS2 will be finished any time soon.

 

[safe-keeper]

I've not seen the post, but I'd assume it's not quay walls as we would understand them from CS1, rather it's using the retaining walls functionality

Well, yes, obviously, but the point is that there's a contradiction in the devs' statements. There is no 'built-in quay functionality' and they've never claimed before that there is one.

These two statements seem to be in direct conflict with each other. I find it difficult to believe that CO was so out of touch with Paradox's marketing that nobody at CO was aware of the multiple, repeated promises of modding availability soon after release, both in streams and published articles. This wasn't an isolated incident where Maddie made an off-hand comment in one stream. It was said multiple times in multiple official text publications immediately prior to release.

I read your post and all I could think about was that scene in The Bear where Ebrahim reads the review praising the upcoming new dish they're (actually totally not) adding to the menu, with Sydney in the background frantically gesturing for him to be quiet.

PDX Marketing: we're adding mod support right out the door!
CO:

 

[anydaytv]

That does sound very much like there will not be any "stand alone" patches anymore.

After the next one, it sounds like no -- which I'll be honest, is bonkers. I'll not beat around the bush, here's a comprehensive list of the biggest blocking gameplay bugs.

• Indefinite vehicle accidents caused by the physics on vehicles never terminating during an accident, which perpetually triggers, causing any car near it to also be caught in an accident, they do not despawn. Destroying the road is the only option.
• Infinite boarding action by all vehicles. In the cases of public transportation, it can be solved my deleting or moving a stop, or station. In the case of a personal vehicle, it cannot be solved, and even destroying the road does not fix it.
• Not providing enough schools drastically impacts performance, and can cause massive spikes, even blocking the simulation at higher populations.
• Industrial tax glitch causing the player to make or lose millions.
• Cargo hubs don't actually ship out cargo
• Cargo hubs get more traffic than they can ever process due to bizarre road layouts and vehicle entrance speeds
• Seaports can have their pathfinding broken, making it impossible to fix routes or create new ones.
• Residential suitability will eventually kill your city if you mix zone without a highway separation. High density offices are the worst offenders. The only solution is to cheat, or destroy your residential zoning and rebuild it. It cannot simply be left alone because it saps demand, with the negative trait of "-Unoccupied buildings"
• High volumes of pedestrian traffic will sometimes freeze inside crosswalks, blocking traffic indefinitely.
• Vehicles don't switch lanes for an offramp on five lane highways until the very final node - creating huge traffic blocks and rendering five lane highways less efficient than even three lane highways, which is cataclysmic when you reach higher populations.
• There is no limit to the number of pets a cim can have, which can cause issues if they have 50 dogs and decide to walk them.
• Teens can get any kind of Job, including the CIA.
• Jobs will consistently display "not enough workers", even if they are fully employed.
• Commercial buildings will constantly go out of business because their resource costs are too high.
• Upgrading mail and garbage facilities have no effect because they never meet the demands of the city, better to just build more. Do not bother with upgrades.
• Large buildings have no functional walking paths, despite there being walking paths visible.
• Cims do not interact with any parks
• Cims are not properly fitted to benches and other seating arrangements, causing clipping.
• Cim avatars involved in vehicle accidents can be extremely deformed in profane ways, unsuitable for children.
• Cims, Pets, and Wildlife float in the air.
• Specialized industrial areas have a 50% chance not to spawn after being placed. Related to mouse position, will be untenable on a console controller.
• Clicking the "X" on the transit route information panel will set all routes to visible, even if you specifically set some to invisible.

That's just off the top of my head.

 

[Gaseous Stranger]

Well, yes, obviously, but the point is that there's a contradiction in the devs' statements. There is no 'built-in quay functionality' and they've never claimed before that there is one.

It’s just like them featuring content with obvious modding from the thunderstore, meanwhile the official discord was banning people for linking or discussing “unofficial” mods.


They want to pretend this stuff is from the base game, while also limiting modding to “official platforms” and have the best of both worlds

 

[sys_64738]

(removed)

C'mon dude, really now?

In a private chat, I'd be all in for bad jokes, but please keep it off here.

Best regards,
sys

Edit: The posting I've mentioned has been removed, so I removed the quote as well. To the poster: No, I didn't report you, though.

 

[safe-keeper]

C'mon dude, really now?

In a private chat, I'd be all in for bad jokes, but please keep it off here.

Best regards,
sys

Edit: The posting I've mentioned has been removed, so I removed the quote as well. To the poster: No, I didn't report you, though.

Just in case anyone else feels this way, since it's a bit of a political topic, I'm of course fully in favour of Finland joining NATO, and us Nordics have a great relationship and like to joke about each other. But I recognize that deadpan humor doesn't always carry over too well into text.

 

[Blackoth]

So the information pool feels like maybe this game will be out of early access in 2025.

 

[sys_64738]

Just in case anyone else feels this way, since it's a bit of a political topic, I'm of course fully in favour of Finland joining NATO, and us Nordics have a great relationship and like to joke about each other. But I recognize that deadpan humor doesn't always carry over too well into text.

Hi safe-keeper,

that's the reason why I've answered to your posting the way I did.

Getting political in non-political threads is a bad idea. It usually creates a distraction from the original topic, even if they're mentioned to be jokes.

No hard feelings here, but this type of topic usually leads to a total derailing.

Best regards,
sys

Edit: Sorry, I had the wrong clipboard entry when I was quoting your name.

 

[Skeksis25]

After the next one, it sounds like no -- which I'll be honest, is bonkers. I'll not beat around the bush, here's a comprehensive list of the biggest blocking gameplay bugs.

• Indefinite vehicle accidents caused by the physics on vehicles never terminating during an accident, which perpetually triggers, causing any car near it to also be caught in an accident, they do not despawn. Destroying the road is the only option.
• Infinite boarding action by all vehicles. In the cases of public transportation, it can be solved my deleting or moving a stop, or station. In the case of a personal vehicle, it cannot be solved, and even destroying the road does not fix it.
• Not providing enough schools drastically impacts performance, and can cause massive spikes, even blocking the simulation at higher populations.
• Industrial tax glitch causing the player to make or lose millions.
• Cargo hubs don't actually ship out cargo
• Cargo hubs get more traffic than they can ever process due to bizarre road layouts and vehicle entrance speeds
• Seaports can have their pathfinding broken, making it impossible to fix routes or create new ones.
• Residential suitability will eventually kill your city if you mix zone without a highway separation. High density offices are the worst offenders. The only solution is to cheat, or destroy your residential zoning and rebuild it. It cannot simply be left alone because it saps demand, with the negative trait of "-Unoccupied buildings"
• High volumes of pedestrian traffic will sometimes freeze inside crosswalks, blocking traffic indefinitely.
• Vehicles don't switch lanes for an offramp on five lane highways until the very final node - creating huge traffic blocks and rendering five lane highways less efficient than even three lane highways, which is cataclysmic when you reach higher populations.
• There is no limit to the number of pets a cim can have, which can cause issues if they have 50 dogs and decide to walk them.
• Teens can get any kind of Job, including the CIA.
• Jobs will consistently display "not enough workers", even if they are fully employed.
• Commercial buildings will constantly go out of business because their resource costs are too high.
• Upgrading mail and garbage facilities have no effect because they never meet the demands of the city, better to just build more. Do not bother with upgrades.
• Large buildings have no functional walking paths, despite there being walking paths visible.
• Cims do not interact with any parks
• Cims are not properly fitted to benches and other seating arrangements, causing clipping.
• Cim avatars involved in vehicle accidents can be extremely deformed in profane ways, unsuitable for children.
• Cims, Pets, and Wildlife float in the air.
• Specialized industrial areas have a 50% chance not to spawn after being placed. Related to mouse position, will be untenable on a console controller.
• Clicking the "X" on the transit route information panel will set all routes to visible, even if you specifically set some to invisible.

That's just off the top of my head.

I wish CO would take a list like this and all the other known bugs and put a column to the right with their response. Have it be just a handful of categories like:

Aware, investigating issue, fix ETA next few patches.
Aware, investigating issue, fix ETA TBD.
Need more info.
Not a bug, working as intended.

Something like that would go a long way towards appeasing people who don't even know if the issues they face are being worked on. It would go a long way towards consolidating the bug reports. Have it pop up before someone submits a bug report so they know that what they are submitting is a repeat. Surely, this would be helpful for CO as much as the players.

 

[Otis85402]

Not a bug, working as intended.

This, to me, is the most galling. It would be nice if we could get clarification on what is a bug and what is expected behavior. I harp on this regularly and just wanted to underscore your comment again.

 

[Potoroo]

i think this is complete wrong.
consumer rights are to protect you from the manaufacturer. If not any manufacturer can bring out a fault product or a imitation product. the retailer who sells the product is not responsible even for the product he sells.
A retailer selling an faulty product or imitation can be accused and fined, but in the end the responsibility is towards the manufacturer or producer.
if that would not be the case, no retailer would take the liability on, to be responsible for the goods they selling and it would kill free market.
but rarely any retailer sees any refund from producer or manufacturer , because they will claim that all will be fixed with releases.
For this game , CO and PI have still got time to satisfy the customers and retailers. so fixex and patches and extra's for good will

but if they would cancel the game or not would be able to fix it and let's assume stop development, then retailers and consumers could ask for a refund.
They would be in their right, but since no global laws exists , i doubt many will execute this right.

In the end is rarely in SW or Games that refund are done and it all depends on goodwill of the developer.

Your contract of sale is by definition between you and the vendor that gave you the product in return for your money. Sundry consumer protection laws around the world subsequently put the onus on the vendor to deal with problems with the product on your behalf. That's certainly the case in Australia and in the EU. Nobody here bought CS2 directly from CO so they cannot reasonably insist that CO should refund them.

 

[TripleAgent]

Your contract of sale is by definition between you and the vendor that gave you the product in return for your money. Sundry consumer protection laws around the world subsequently put the onus on the vendor to deal with problems with the product on your behalf. That's certainly the case in Australia and in the EU. Nobody here bought CS2 directly from CO so they cannot reasonably insist that CO should refund them.

That's just not correct.

Creative Assembly issued partial refunds through steam.