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Dev Diary #144 - Legends and Lesions

Hello everybody! Welcome to this Developer Diary explaining the creative vision behind Crusader Kings III’s first Core Expansion: Legends of the Dead, courtesy of one of our talented game designers (and resident historian on medieval plagues!)





In the year of the lord 1346 the Crimean port of Caffa was being besieged by the Golden Horde. The contemporary Italian notary de Mussis writes down that diseased corpses were thrown over its walls and thus, the Black Plague entered Europe. That same year, Edward III of England defeated the forces of king Philip VI of France in Crecy. Two years later, Edward would try to create the Order of the Round Table, inspired by the heroic deeds of King Arthur, and later transformed into the Order of the Garter.

As our Game Director already mentioned in last week's Chapter III overview, we're exploring a new type of expansion focusing on systems that affect the whole map, rather than just adding flavor to a specific region. We didn’t have a name for it at the beginning, but we knew we wanted to do something bigger with the time we had, while planning the next Major Expansion.

We've been wanting to cover Plagues since approximately the 12th of January 2021. We still have the early designs stored somewhere, but we put that aside for a while in order to develop the huge endeavor that was Tours & Tournaments. However, the team stayed highly passionate about plagues throughout the entire time (as many of us have fond memories of The Reaper's Due), and we knew it was something that we wanted to tackle again.

Soon after the release of Tours & Tournaments it became apparent that it was the moment to pick up plagues again, but that presented its own challenges, among them a very important one - how to make this distinct from its Crusader Kings II version?

We were also very aware of the circumstances of the world, so we decided it was important to have some hope spreading across the map as well.

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When researching the way medieval people saw plagues, we noticed that on many occasions they moved towards blaming the monarchs; If they're a representative of divine power on earth, and God is punishing us, then it must be because the representative is doing a bad job, right? That made us think of the impact that would have on a ruler's Legitimacy... and then we started thinking about Legitimacy itself.

Sure, we already had Prestige in the game, but that felt like a representation of what you've done and how you present yourself, rather than "are you fit to rule?", "do people believe in you?", "are you really the right person for this?" Legitimacy was born as a way to represent these questions within the game, which raised the question: how do you prove your rule is legitimate?

Soon, we thought of the medieval royal genealogies, tracing back the lineages to Trojan heroes, Charlemagne, mythological kings and even gods. Proving that you're the descendant of Aeneas is the easiest way to say, "I am the right person to rule."

"To be noble," the medieval historian George Duby notes, "is to be able to refer to a genealogy."

This, obviously, led us to Legends, and legends certainly did spread during the Middle Ages. King Arthur and his knights became so popular that they soon received translations and new material in French, German, Spanish and Italian. Legends got out of control, changed and expanded through the centuries, creating new stories that had little to do with their original purpose.

In Legends of the Dead, we unite the brightest and darkest moments of humanity - tales of greatness illuminating a devastated land. Desolation and despair, but also the hope that comes after.

Plagues will ravage your realm, causing development to plummet, and kill characters indiscriminately, for Death knows no master. In addition to our existing diseases, you'll be able to suffer from Holy Fire, Bloody Flux, and Measles. Holy Fire was the medieval name for ergotism, while outbreaks of dysentery (frequently occurring in the wake of passing armies) were known as Bloody Flux. Measles in particular is a danger to infants, and could be a dynasty killer if players aren't careful.

We’ll cover these in more detail when we talk about Plagues in a later Dev Diary, however.

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[Image: A Consumption outbreak follows the coast of the English Channel]

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[Image: New (and full body!) graphics for measles]

Legends will allow you to write down the heroic deeds of your ancestors or sing about your own glory. Cover the map in the stories that you create, gaining powerful control and skill boosts, among other effects.

It’s not just the likes of Hercules who get their own legends, however; being a faithful devotee can also spawn legendary tales of martyrdom and sacrifice. And, of course, you'll be able to trace your Legend back to the most legitimate monarchs of the past. Spreading a Legend (and increasing its quality) will give you unique rewards, such as special Decisions or new Buildings. In such a highly systemic expansion with both Plagues and Legitimacy, Legends also allow for some nice historical flavor and roleplay elements.

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[Image: The Custody of the Holy Site legend spreads over Galicia]

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[Image: A Legendary Statue built to commemorate a hero's legend]

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[Image: A legend turned into an artifact]



We will touch more on Legends and Legitimacy and how they work in-game next week, in addition to a deep dive into the heroic (and sometimes grimy) art created for this expansion! And worry not, Plagues - the most famous of them all in particular - will receive some more attention soon after.
 
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I still worry that people are baying for Global Nerfs, when there are also people here who don't want Global nerfs.

I remember how it was in CK2, how people kept demanding Global Nerf after Global Nerf, and how the Devs eventually wound up almost nerfing CK2 into the literal basement. And guess what? People were STILL demanding nerfs, over the vehement objections of lots of other players.

Only thing I can think of is to make the Game Rules as robust as possible; capable of supporting infinite degrees of ease/difficulty, instead of going for a One-Size-fits-all policy.

Such a global policy would only work if there were only one playstyle to balance the Game for. But there are many different playstyles for this Game, many of which would be actively harmed by Global Nerfs, as they were in CK2 before the Game Rules were brought into the Game.

Please think before you Nerf. Ask yourself if any of these Nerfs can be done through Game Rules...
It’s not about asking for nerfs for the sake of nerfs and muh difficulty, it’s about making the mechanics robust and actually rewarding to engage with. There is currently absolutely no reason to engage with a plethora of well designed systems currently in the game because of the ability to more easily do other actions with little to no consequence. Choices need to be interesting.
 
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Regarding ‘fluff’ vs. ‘meaty’ DDs—the devs get compliments and complaints for both types. There are posts on this forum (some from the last few weeks) from people who have been telling the devs they’d love more diaries, even if they’re ‘light’ ones. There have also been posts/threads in the past year where people have complained about long, meaty diaries and asked that the devs break them into several smaller ones. I suspect that the final decision has more to do with dev workflow issues and timing, because whatever they decide, it will please some and displease others. ;)


No one seems to be paying this any attention!:

That should make a difference! Our gold income is going to suffer. Our innovation discovery rate will decrease. Our population numbers will plummet, our skilled advisors may die off, to say nothing of our heirs.

We won’t know how big a difference it’ll all make until we play, but it doesn’t look like it’s all roses and rainbows. There are thorns and storms in there, too.
But will they be enough to balance it out? I suppose you can built hospitals or take other prevention methods even before diseqse breaks out. If one can shield hi.self from it effectivly, and if diseases dont turn up to frequently, a player can use all the gold accumulated to make himself safe. Thats my fear..
 
I hope that disease is NOT the balance to Legitimacy nor the answer to making the game harder. Legitimacy is very likely to be a Base Game addition, so to have its counter locked behind a DLC is not good.

Secondly, I think the source of the current imbalance needs to be fixed (modifier stacking), instead of adding a source of counter-balance (Legitimacy and Disease). As in, modifiers need to be reigned in at how they are handed out like candy at Halloween.

Honestly, when was the last time you had a bad-stat ruler? Because all of mine eventually cross 20+ in multiple stats and have crazy Prowess no matter what. Prowess modifier stacking has the added problem of warping the balance of warfare because of how Knights use that stat to calculate their battle damage.


Agreed, if Disease aims to balance Legitimacy, then we are still left with all the problems of yesteryear
Yes. I wasn't suggesting that diseases would be the fix to all of our problems, just that they might help to give the Game some much needed difficulty.
As for legitimacy it would be rather dumb if that one wouldn't balance itself, no?

As for modifieroverflow... well, I feel like the only way to really fix that is to either painstakingly nerf all of the existing ones or just add in more negative ones... and I mean of course you get great rulers if you abuse all the systems. But I get you...
 
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Sure diseases will hopefully help but adding one to the negative column while also adding one to the positive column doesn't change the balance, and as they are likely to add way more than one to the positive coulmn it will as usual tip the scales too much in the player's favour.
I mean legitimacy SHOULD balance itself so I wouldn't count it at going into either column.
 
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I still worry that people are baying for Global Nerfs, when there are also people here who don't want Global nerfs.

I remember how it was in CK2, how people kept demanding Global Nerf after Global Nerf, and how the Devs eventually wound up almost nerfing CK2 into the literal basement. And guess what? People were STILL demanding nerfs, over the vehement objections of lots of other players.

Only thing I can think of is to make the Game Rules as robust as possible; capable of supporting infinite degrees of ease/difficulty, instead of going for a One-Size-fits-all policy.

Such a global policy would only work if there were only one playstyle to balance the Game for. But there are many different playstyles for this Game, many of which would be actively harmed by Global Nerfs, as they were in CK2 before the Game Rules were brought into the Game.

Please think before you Nerf. Ask yourself if any of these Nerfs can be done through Game Rules...
If you are referring to me, I'll point out that I asked for many nerfs not global nerfs.

If you are not referring to me directly then I'll suggest you consider that people asking for nerfs might not be asking for global nerfs but in fact intelligent/targeted nerfs to balance out what has been a campaign of never ending buffs since the game launched.

It is virtually impossible to fail at the game now, even with a more restrained style of play.

Personally I avoid maxxing like the forthcoming plague, I do everything I can to choke my character, including running a very large personal mod that heavily nerfs my stats, and yet I can still steam roll anything I come up against after a couple of years. The game is virtually unplayable and unenjoyable after a generation or two at most.

It's long past the point where I tend not to go to war because it's boring af, no more than a time sink at best.

I abdicate after 25+ years to reboot my character as a lowly earl so I can enjoy the same campaign, without a mod to do that I'd be starting a new game every couple of generations.

Ck3 is just a poor RP due to it's insistence of telling me far too much and showing me the outcome of every choice before I make them.

gee if only they used the game rules to implement levels of difficulty.

Don't get me wrong, I love playing CK3, but only because I use a stack of mods that nerf my stats and hide the over abundance of information given to me, and allow me to bail on my inevitable boring uber emperor for a more enjoyable struggle as a lowly Earl.

But hey if you like a no fail sunny walk in the park it's all :cool:
 
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I still worry that people are baying for Global Nerfs, when there are also people here who don't want Global nerfs.

I remember how it was in CK2, how people kept demanding Global Nerf after Global Nerf, and how the Devs eventually wound up almost nerfing CK2 into the literal basement. And guess what? People were STILL demanding nerfs, over the vehement objections of lots of other players.

Only thing I can think of is to make the Game Rules as robust as possible; capable of supporting infinite degrees of ease/difficulty, instead of going for a One-Size-fits-all policy.

Such a global policy would only work if there were only one playstyle to balance the Game for. But there are many different playstyles for this Game, many of which would be actively harmed by Global Nerfs, as they were in CK2 before the Game Rules were brought into the Game.

Please think before you Nerf. Ask yourself if any of these Nerfs can be done through Game Rules...
Louder.

I have no idea what play style, mods, or game rules a lot of commenters here are using that they have such an incredibly easy time...

But when I play it's a constant struggle. My heir always seems to be the worst kid I have with trash stats and traits, I'm always running out of money, my neighbors are forever trying to take my stuff, and my family is constantly backstabbing each other or trying to kill me. Once the Pope declared a Great Holy War against me within the first 10 years of me just starting a game.

But I play on ultra hard mode because I play as a pagan Sicilian woman trying to reclaim Sicily, so... It's BRUTAL, but fun for me.

Maybe these other people need to try a different play style if they find things soooo easy... Because it sounds like they pick easy playthroughs by choice to me.
 
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I still worry that people are baying for Global Nerfs, when there are also people here who don't want Global nerfs.

I remember how it was in CK2, how people kept demanding Global Nerf after Global Nerf, and how the Devs eventually wound up almost nerfing CK2 into the literal basement. And guess what? People were STILL demanding nerfs, over the vehement objections of lots of other players.

Only thing I can think of is to make the Game Rules as robust as possible; capable of supporting infinite degrees of ease/difficulty, instead of going for a One-Size-fits-all policy.

Such a global policy would only work if there were only one playstyle to balance the Game for. But there are many different playstyles for this Game, many of which would be actively harmed by Global Nerfs, as they were in CK2 before the Game Rules were brought into the Game.

Please think before you Nerf. Ask yourself if any of these Nerfs can be done through Game Rules...
Thank you. Yes if you are successful you tend to snowball, guess what, thats happening in every GSG. Once we pass a certain threshold there is no going back.
What do this nerfers wish to accomplish? Especially where to put a nerf.
I don't want global nerfs and tbh once I've managed to create my Empire I don't want to loose it all the time. I had that In I:R, I never got to the point where rome was really the roman territory in our time because it collapsed all the time. I don't want that.
 
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Louder.

I have no idea what play style, mods, or game rules a lot of commenters here are using that they have such an incredibly easy time...

But when I play it's a constant struggle. My heir always seems to be the worst kid I have with trash stats and traits, I'm always running out of money, my neighbors are forever trying to take my stuff, and my family is constantly backstabbing each other or trying to kill me. Once the Pope declared a Great Holy War against me within the first 10 years of me just starting a game.

But I play on ultra hard mode because I play as a pagan Sicilian woman trying to reclaim Sicily, so... It's BRUTAL, but fun for me.

Maybe these other people need to try a different play style if they find things soooo easy... Because it sounds like they pick easy playthroughs by choice to me.
I love this game and I appreciate the devs working on this title, but it still has some edges and one of them is how effortless it can feel to play if you're not an absolute beginner.

I don't see why we would have to play ahistorically to create difficult scenarios. If I want a historical start and "play tall" in say Bohemia, I should still face challenges that the duchy would historically face like dynamic political dilemmas. Being a ruler in the past was not a breeze.

Why does winning one tournament net us equipment to almost guarantee victory in future tournaments for both my character and my bookish descendants? Something must be made to limit the way artefacts give us bonuses regardless of the characteristics of the characters we play.

Why does it not take more than like two pilgrimages to be the next saint? Like why don't I have to live a pious life to generate piety? My devilish impaler has more piety than any other man in the near vicinity.

Why is it enough to attend hunts and feasts to generate enough prestige to be famous and respected globally? I feel like it's just too easy to get these resources regardless of what I do. It's like I'm failing upwards.

Being a King with Royal Court is easy mode if anything because of how relatively cheap grandeur is to gain. It's almost trivial to get it as a smaller kingdom.

Dynasty perks mean that all my descendants benefit from my accomplishments regardless of who they are. Which is like foolproof.

Late game everyone is... perfect. Everyone marries everyone regardless of inheritance outlook. Getting allies to fight battles for you miles away from their holdings is almost guaranteed. No one challenges my rule when my army is away. My unlanded courtiers always support me unless they're involved in an assassination plot. History is drama, but the drama rarely happens at home as much as it appears to have done historically. I think that's a shame.

Do we really disagree that a game that doesn't challenge your rule in even an immersive way is kinda dull after a while?
 
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Going off of Google, ergotism seems to be a crop-borne disease. Will its spread and the effectiveness of mitigation measures be modelled differently to human and animal borne diseases?
 
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Going off of Google, egotism seems to be a crop-borne disease. Will its spread and the effectiveness of mitigation measures be modelled differently to human and animal borne diseases?
That is a most excellent autocorrect typo! <3 :D Though I don’t think it’s spread by eating bad crops, it does sometimes seem contagious… :p

I too looked up ergotism. ;)
 
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Louder.

I have no idea what play style, mods, or game rules a lot of commenters here are using that they have such an incredibly easy time...

But when I play it's a constant struggle. My heir always seems to be the worst kid I have with trash stats and traits, I'm always running out of money, my neighbors are forever trying to take my stuff, and my family is constantly backstabbing each other or trying to kill me. Once the Pope declared a Great Holy War against me within the first 10 years of me just starting a game.

But I play on ultra hard mode because I play as a pagan Sicilian woman trying to reclaim Sicily, so... It's BRUTAL, but fun for me.

Maybe these other people need to try a different play style if they find things soooo easy... Because it sounds like they pick easy playthroughs by choice to me.
The issue is snowball. The first couple characters have acceptable difficulty but if you play for more than a hundred years or so, pretty much everything gets trivialized. Even picking a hard start doesn’t stop that from being true.
 
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Yup. Some people are confusing difficulty with snowballing.
That game could use more reactive AI characters with goals. But the goal isn't to make the game "harder", it's to make it more dynamic; offering more opportunities to the player.
When someone gets bored because they conquered an empire and they can't lose it, the problem isn't that the game is too easy, it's that the player felt like there was nothing else to do but to conquer an empire and make sure they wouldn't lose it.

That feeling comes from a combination of a lack of content (things to do), a lack of initiative from the player (CK is a sandbox, so imagination and creativity are important ; like imagine Minecraft with someone who don't see the point of designing their own base), and a lack reactivity from the game (imagination is a nice motivator, but if the player feels like they're the only actor in the game with maybe Gengis Khan, it gets lonely).

If there's one thing from CK2 that should also exist in CK3, it's ambitions. It wouldn't necessarily make the game harder, but it would generate characters whose goals could clash with player goals. CK3 is already a nice sandbox, but it's not reactive enough currently. All the AI does is that it will occasionally expand its territory like running water conquers new places - it just follow the path of least resistance. We kinda need an AI that decides "I'll protect my thrones at all costs, and if I lose it, I'll try to get it back for generations" or "I'll conquer a new kingdom and destroy every obstacle on my path", but also "I'll be the best knight of the realm" etc.

Here's a link to CK2's ambitions: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Ambition
One of my fears regarding legends is that characters will just stumble upon them without really intending to. Or they'll just unlock them because they can.
 
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That game could use more reactive AI characters with goals. But the goal isn't to make the game "harder", it's to make it more dynamic; offering more opportunities to the player.
When someone gets bored because they conquered an empire and they can't lose it, the problem isn't that the game is too easy, it's that the player felt like there was nothing else to do but to conquer an empire and make sure they wouldn't lose it.

That feeling comes from a combination of a lack of content (things to do), a lack of initiative from the player (CK is a sandbox, so imagination and creativity are important ; like imagine Minecraft with someone who don't see the point of designing their own base), and a lack reactivity from the game (imagination is a nice motivator, but if the player feels like they're the only actor in the game with maybe Gengis Khan, it gets lonely).

If there's one thing from CK2 that should also exist in CK3, it's ambitions. It wouldn't necessarily make the game harder, but it would generate characters whose goals could clash with player goals. CK3 is already a nice sandbox, but it's not reactive enough currently. All the AI does is that it will occasionally expand its territory like running water conquers new places - it just follow the path of least resistance. We kinda need an AI that decides "I'll protect my thrones at all costs, and if I lose it, I'll try to get it back for generations" or "I'll conquer a new kingdom and destroy every obstacle on my path", but also "I'll be the best knight of the realm" etc.

Here's a link to CK2's ambitions: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Ambition
One of my fears regarding legends is that characters will just stumble upon them without really intending to. Or they'll just unlock them because they can.

This feature is sorely missed in CK3. However, similar to the upcoming Legends feature a successor to the bloodline feature in CK2, I want them to take a different and better route when reimplementing ambitions. Along with this they should also revisit archetypes and npc personalities so that they’re more consequential than simply a suggestion for the AI.

@Wokeg Just wanted to get your attention on the post above mine. <3
 
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Will there be visual details on the map, where there's a disease ongoing, like the giant bonfires from CKII?
See:

edit: and here’s the YouTube video:
 
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