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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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My English vocab might be limited, but what is those Sturdy Grains in Utrecht? How is it different from wheat?
Also I'm not sure about the total number of goods, but I think a lot of them are sharing the same white color like wool, pearl, gems, marble, and salt? Is it possible to differentiate them using strips or something? Or maybe we have a map mode that can select and highlight one particular good like what we have in EU4?
Rye? It is what my mind imidetly goes for anyway.
 
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Not ATM, quoting Johan on this:
maybe. depends on the code technology i hope is ready soon
It would be very cool then, but its use would be limited to some specific and outstanding regions unless you want to make the coast line change globally.

Lowlands and the yellow river, these are two that occur in my mind. Anywhere else?
 
Honestly so excited for this region. It has the potential to be one of the most dynamic. I'm glad you guys are looking into testing Brugge as the main market. It would be so cool to see the main market move from Brugge -> Antwerpen -> Amsterdam as it did in our time. Perhaps even with events giving Brugge a declining trade modifier at some point due to 'slib/verzanden van het Zwin'. Are there events of this sort planned?

Again, I'm so very excited to see how this region will dynamically evolve in my games.
 
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Thank you as always for the interesting updates :)

I have a question in regards to the map feedback: Do you have some ground rules written down somewhere in regards to which kinds of tags are you looking for to be on your map for Project Caesar? Things like:

- What constitutes a (independent) tag in Caesar?
- Which tier of the feudal vassal-system are represented through unique tags in Caeaser and which ones aren't?
- Are province redrawings still possible or not?
 
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What a dream that the first tinto talk map discussion is about my home region!

I'd like to point out a few things that could be improved:
We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.
1. If I recall correctly, the actual cultural dividing line in the Low Countries during the Late Middle Ages was more East (continental, Meuse and Rhine valleys such as Gelre, Loon, Liège etc.) vs. West (close to the sea, Flanders, Brabant, Zeeland, Holland, Hainaut). Generally speaking, the west traded more via the sea, was richer, more urban and more populous in general and had more contact with France and England, whereas the east was more rural, less populous and more strongly integrated into the Holy Roman Empire. This divide became even more pronounced when the Burgundians married and conquered their way into the Low Countries, uniting the different counties and duchies into a single structure, which turned Flanders, Brabant and Holland into their main power base.

The North-South divide only became a stronger dividing line after the Eighty Years War and the split between a Habsburg Catholic South and an independent Protestant North.

Personally, I'd either split it into the four main cultures (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic and Limburgic) as you mentioned, or merge it into one big 'Dutch' culture. The intermediate option is ahistorical as it portrays a post 80 YW divide which didn't really exist before and it also comes with the additional issues that you're implying that Brabant and Limburg considered themselves Flemish in the 14th century (they most surely didn't) and that Flemish is separate from Dutch.

2. The locations of Saint-Omer (Sint-Omaars), Calais (Kales) and Boulogne (Bonen) should be culturally split between Flemish and Picard. The (slow) Romanization of this area was in full swing in the 14th century, but there was still a strong Flemish presence, especially in the villages.

3. Hainaut seems a bit sparse when it comes to locations. It had a total population that was only slightly smaller than Holland in the 14th-15th century. I'd split off Ath from Mons and Maubeuge from Valenciennes. Both Ath and Maubeuge were decently sized towns at that time, with political importance.

4. As others have already mentioned, the mix between Dutch (Antwerpen, Den Haag) and English (Ghent, Brussels) toponyms is quite messy. Also it's 'Kempenland' without the 't'.

5. Wallonia seems to barely have any iron, with Luxembourg (location) as the exception, whereas historically the Prince-Bishopric of Liège has always been an important iron producer and later became known for its steelworking and arms industry. It's not by chance that the industrial revolution first took off in this region when it spread to the European continent.

6. While it's a pleasant surprise to see wine production in the southern Low Countries, how will the game deal with the Little Ice Age and it's effects on crops. Viticulture, for example, became unprofitable in this region with the onset of the Little Ice Age and could no longer compete with French wine regions.

7. As others have said, from a historical perspective, Bruges makes more sense as a trade centre than Antwerp in the 14th century. With the gradual silting of the Zwin channel linking Bruges to the sea, in the 14th and 15th century, the trade centre should start to shift to Antwerp.


Also, I wondered if there would be a way for Flanders to regain the cities that it lost to the French king after the Flemish revolt without necessarily going to war? Historically, Romance Flanders was given back to the Flemish count as a 'wedding gift' when his daughter married the duke of Burgundy.
 
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Okay my home area is on screen so I MUST comment and correct tiny details propably unimportant to actual gameplay:

The location east of Varel should definitely also be Marsh. It's even called Wesermarsch today.

The coastline isn't correct either, as multiple floods reshaped it. Just after the startdate the Marcellus flood turned the northern part into an island for a long time by connecting the Jade bay with the Weser River in the east, and just before that flood the Jade bay should be way smaller.
 
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I'm glad that you've decided to start doing these. I'm reading in advance about the situation of the Carpathian space in the mid-14th century and I'm getting all kinds of headaches as I have to dig deep for information, while also encountering a lack of consensus over chronological details. I think I'm getting the large picture however and I'll be able to offer some proper feedback when it's my turn.
 
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Here you are, and I'll also add to the main post:

View attachment 1130885
I'm not so knowledgeable on the layout, but one thing that immediately caught my eye is that the localisation is a bit inconsistent. This is especially apparent apparent when you have Noord and Zuid Holland, but North and South Brabant. Same with west and east. Which begs the question, will province naming dynamically change according to the culture?

I'd love for the naming to be dynamic, but even if it's too much to maintain, I'd like it to at least be consistent within the same region. If I remember correctly this is even a problem with EU4, where for example some provinces in Denmark would localise to Jutland, and others would remain Jylland, which just looks worse when they're right next to each other...
 
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Of course you post this right as I go for a nap. So a bit longer post to respond some things that were brought up in the thread.

First of all, I'm going to assume that this is supposed to be strictly about the Low Countries, so I'm going to ignore the German locations entirely. Maps of German locations are going to be where i'll post the most, I do have the benefit of understanding German sources after all. But like I said, I won't mention anything about the Rhineland that was shown.

Regarding the market center: Definitely should be Bruges in this time period. Throughout the centuries up to the start of the game, trade between Bruges and Genoa was one of the main trade arteries of Europe, going through the Champagne fairs. After Genoese merchants started sailing to Bruges, the land trade declined, but Bruges was still the main trade center. That changed around 1500 when it stopped having a port due to silting of the Zwin channel, maybe this could be represented through an event that can remove the market center and move it to Antwerp. Antwerp took over, but after the Dutch blockaded it, Amsterdam became the main location in the Low Countries.

Regarding Dutch culture in German locations: All I've seen in the posts that suggest this are references to languages, or rather local dialects that are similar to Dutch. Well, to that I would have two things to say: a) language isn't always the same as culture and b) since people spoke local dialects EVERYWHERE, there's a lot of room for interpretation. It's hard to say if a local dialect is closer to Dutch or German, because there were no standard Dutch or German as such in the time period and what is now the Dutch language was considered a dialect of German at one point.
I think you should look at cultural ties more than language in these cases - were these border locations that are German today aligned with the Low Countries to the West, or German regions to the South/East?

I get the olives distinction (although I may prefer 'oil', which could include other vegetable oils)
100% agree with this, I think the trade good should be oil instead of olives. When you read sources about trade in the time period, they all just mention oil being traded in the Mediterranean. We can assume it's olive oil, but I like just "oil" better as a good that can be produced in other regions as well and is what actually was traded in markets, not the olives themselves.

Regarding the textile trade goods shown, I would like to link the thread about textiles that I posted a bit ago, since I'm not sure if you saw it after it dropped down the first page pretty quickly.
I can see that the raw materials are pretty much as expected (with hemp and flax being unified into plant fibers or fiber crops as you call them - kind of awkward that cotton is one of those too, but separate) but since you actually represent alum I guess that would be added to the list of inputs for cloth making or at least for dyed cloth.

Regarding Alum as a trade good: I was debating myself if that could be worth being represented in the game. It was on my list since I did read parts of De re metallica (great source) recently and it was one of the materials mentioned. Can we assume that this good also includes all kinds of vitriol? Distinctions weren't made that strictly and materials were even mixed up occasionally in the time period. Iron gall ink was the main ink used in Europe and its production requires green vitriol, which I think can be included in the alum trade good. Not sure if ink production would ever show up in the game, though.


That's it for now, I'm going to look at the maps now and write up my actual feedback for those.
Definitely big mistake not having the terrain of Oudenaarde be set to cobblestones! I hope at least one person got that reference. :p
 
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Is the terrain going to be dynamic? It would be nice to see forests switch into woods, woods into plains and plains into farmlands. I think it would also be cool to see the land develop as such during colonization of Americas.
 
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The coastline isn't correct either, as multiple floods reshaped it.
Pavia said that it’s based on 20C, and JOhan said that he needs more codes support (from Stockholm, I think…?) to realize any dynamic coastline.
 
Is the terrain going to be dynamic? It would be nice to see forests switch into woods, woods into plains and plains into farmlands. I think it would also be cool to see the land develop as such during colonization of Americas.
It’s already available in latter-than-EUIV PDS games so it might be possible.
 
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I have to express my immeasurable disappointment that the Free City of Culemborg/Kulenborgh is not represented. But sadly I have nothing but poorly sourced internet images to cite for its representation and even then I don't think it would be significant enough to put on the map
 
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What an Amazing map, it looks so nice the details and the nice borders. Amazing! This really brings the Dutchman inside of me above. Cannot be more excited to play Friesland and conquer the entire Netherlands, since we all know the Frisians are the orginal Dutchman.

I do have some recommendations on the current dutch provinces, with some Historical background to back it up (Wikipedia links, real research).
Perhaps some are created due to balancing of the map.

1. Province of Groningen.
City of Groningen basically controlled the province, everything outside the city is called Ommelanden (I myself am from this region). These Ommelanden were divided in 4 regions. 1. Westerkwartier, 2. Hunsingo, 3. Fivelingo, 4. Oldambt (which came in the 15th century).

On the map, I see that the city of Groningen together with Westerkwartier and Hunsingo form "Groningen".
Fivelingo and 1/2 of Oldambt form Appingedam.
Before the city of Groningen got this power status over the entire province, it had some cities wars with Appingedam, which it won.

Wedde is it own region (official name for this region is "Westerwolde"), which makes sense. Before Westerwolde became officially Dutch it had close ties with the Bishop Münster and was regarded more Saxon cultured than Frisian cultured, the region itself spoke a Saxon dialect until the 16th. The name of the region implies that is on the West side of the Bishop Münster, while from Groningen its perspective it East.
This region came into Dutch hands in 1530 due to the duke of Gelre who concequered it and was later on conquered by Karel the V.

Changes I would propose for this province are for the start date 1337:
1. Make the Culture of wedde Saxon (perhaps with Frisian influence).
2. Make Wedde landlocked, and give Appingedam the entire coastal region on the east.

2. Province of Drenthe (top 3 regions in Oversticht).
1. Coevorden
and Emmen are direct neighbours (city centers are 20 km apart). For historical reasons I would like to rename Emmen to Coevorden since the growth of Emmen started in the 20th century, whilst Coevorden was a fully fortified city back then.
2. Instead of Coevorden I would suggest Meppel, which has been the biggest place in South-West of Drenthe.

3. Province of Friesland.
Rename Makkum to Sneek, since that is an official Frisian city in that specific region, and Makkum isnt.

4. Province of Gelre.
[update] I made an error about Doetichem, perfect choice.
This province was divided in four "Kwartieren" (in english Quarters). These were 1. Arnhem, 2. Zutphen, 3. Nijmegen en 4 Roermond. If you ever visit Arnhem, the old city hall reference the names on a plaque.
The two that trigger me here are: 1. The location of Arnhem which border Utrecht, while in real life it borders Kleef. 2. The place name Apeldoorn which grew in the 19th century.

Changes I would like to see here are:
2. Rename Apeldoorn to Arnhem. This region was called the "kwartier of Veluwe (Arnhem). Basically giving Arnhem control over the entire Veluwe Forest. Perhaps also adjust the grassland into Woodland there.
3. Rename Arnhem to Wageningen. Arnhem doesnt border Utrecht.

4. Province of Utrecht:
Why no Amersfoort, which is in CK3?

5. Province of Noord-Holland
Why no Haarlem, which is in CK3? Haarlem in the middle ages was bigger and more important than the city of Amsterdam, since the 80 years war the city of Amsterdam grew bigger than Haarlem.

6. Province of Dutch-Limburg
Rename Weert to Roermond, since this is bigger city and this city borders Belgium and not Germany.
Rename Roermond to Heinsberg (it clearly visible that Roermond is in the current German lands.

6. Bad-Bentheim?

1715415374618.png


[update] I made an error about Doetichem, perfect choice.
 
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that you're implying that Brabant and Limburg considered themselves Flemish in the 14th century (they most surely didn't) and that Flemish is separate from Dutch.
The identification might be more related to locations and hometowns rather than language link in ancient times.