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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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I love these new map diaries. Hopefully you will show us England/the British Isles soon.

Not sure how I feel about reinstating the Antwerp market, as it undoubtedly weakens the London market, but it is probably the right call.
 
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I like Taxandria ( version used by the museum in Turnhout), since at least today "Kempen" doesn't really include the city of Antwerp.
If Turnhout uses Taxandria, then I'm inclined to prefer that as well. For the same reason that with "Kempen/Kempenland" a lot of the area isn't really included today.
This amazing map even shows "Kempelandt" to exclude the city of Antwerpen and "t Land van Rijen" (the land belonging to the city). ( Map is oriented with East on top)
 

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What is the justification for it being the antwerp market when in this time period, up until the 16th century, Bruges was the most important (by far) trading city in the region? IMO it would be historically correct to move it to Bruges. You do have it as a location on the map already so it shouldn't be an issue.
 
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I have a question about the culture map. I don't know a lot about this small region in modern day Germany so I hope someone can add information for the devs. But did Low Franconian/Dutch dialects not spread a bit across the border around the Rhine? This map is an example for what I mean. I feel like with the amount of detail they can make it very accurate with the locations like "Kleve" and "Geldern" etc.

They will probably change this as they said they will look at the modern day German region but I hope they take note of this and whatever other people that know a lot more about that specific region can add.
 
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Now, I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, so I might be repeating what someone else said but.

1. For me, instinctively, grey in the context of terrain are mountains. It feels awkward for it to show hills. I think slightly darker green would show it better, or maybe a yellowish-green color like what HOI4 uses. Grey also contrasts too much for a terrain so widespread as I assume hills are.

2. Really not a fan of the intensity of the color increasing at the coast for religion. I actually first saw a reddit post which just had the maps without any context and thought it was Trade Power or something. The gradient of the color seems to imply the deep yellow areas are somehow different than the pastel yellow ones.
 
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I'm sort of curious on how you are going to do places in the new world. The PNW had a lot of small cultures, while being relatively highly populated, but only ever farmed fish. Is there going to be a sort of requirement that pops get a "balanced diet" or are things like grain required? Also, are places such as volcanoes going to be mapped as a type of terrain?

I am specifically curious on the PNW because they tend to get overlooked when someone writes about natives of US/Canada. Also because I am from the region and know a bit about it, so get bummed out when they are excluded.
 
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I have a question about the culture map. I don't know a lot about this small region in modern day Germany so I hope someone can add information for the devs. But did Low Franconian/Dutch dialects not spread a bit across the border around the Rhine? This map is an example for what I mean. I feel like with the amount of detail they can make it very accurate with the locations like "Kleve" and "Geldern" etc.

They will probably change this as they said they will look at the modern day German region but I hope they take note of this and whatever other people that know a lot more about that specific region can add.
I could get behind this idea. Especially since even today certain regions in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany still speak Limburgish, a separate Low Frankish language.
 
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In my opinion there's a case for setting Kleve and Geldern to Dutch culture. It was only under Prussian rule in 19th and 20th century that modern German language got established there, before that it was a dialect (Kleverländisch) that was closer to Dutch (or at least Nordniederfränkisch) than Rhenish, and at least Geldern was pretty much considered part of the Low Countries until 1648. But then again, the subculture that would fit best here would probably be Limburgish, which is integrated into Flemish - and out of Rhenish, Dutch and Flemish, Flemish feels like the worst choice for both provinces, so I see why it's handled that way. However, having Geldern and Venlo in different cultures feels really weird, since both territories were almost completely similar politically and culturally for all the games (likely) timeframe, up until a political split happening only in 1815.
 
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There is no free city of Cologne on the map, as I can see, but the city gained independence from the archbishop more than 50 years before the start date, and archbishop was even banned from it. The story of a mighty and influential archbishop who can't even visit his own main temple is a peak medieval European experience and personal favorite of mine. The city might be too small to be represented on the map, but is there any chance for it to be added as offmap country?
 
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Couple of questions here, will I understand that putting in actual land reclaimantion projects into the game is rather difficult (I.E. reclaiming actual ocean), it would be quite nice if there was a way of changing topography and vegetation. While I am no expert on the matter, I am still fairly certain that Netherlands used to be considerably more wooded, specially Veluwe like different user pointed out. Furthermore, while it is no secret that Netherlands is a marshy place, the wet terrain was crucial in several of the countries wars. 's-Hertogenbosch for example, while indeed quite flat and grassy, is also home to very much marshy like terrain and used to, and still somewhat is relatively wooded. (Both of which, more so the marsh aspect having been very important in defence of city in 80 years war).

What I am trying to get at here is that I don't know whether the game can accurately showcase that these terrain conditions both existed yet didn't necessarily inhibit the city's growth. London, Amsterdam and countless other cities are examples of what is relatively annoying yet extremely fertile terrain being turned into massive cities. But this type of terrain still affected the defence of city, the Spanish wish 's-Hertogenbosch was flatlands.

Second, I wonder whether we'll be able to change terrain like previously mentioned? Europe for example, had massive amount of deforestation happen. Even areas like the Rhine famous for their forests, are still far less wooded compared to back then. Eu4 did a rather poor job showcasing this, important cities existing in prime real estate getting + dev cost because it's a ''forest'' compared to places that were just given the label of farmlands, even though the ''forest'' city was far larger. So will terrain and vegetation be influenceable? Or will the game be able to accurately showcase while something is considered as suboptimal terrain, it did not actually negatively impact a city's growth. For example Aachen, which is shown to be hills.
 
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I respectfully do not agree. If you want to model Zeeuws Vlaanderen in game, and the historical territory of the Dutch Republic, the Hulst location is needed.
I don't know which part of my post you're disagreeing with? The border between today's Belgium and the Netherlands is artificial, it is basically impossible to have both the 1337 and the 1840 situation accurate at this scale for Zeeuws Vlaanderen (as with Lommel/Luyksgestel). I trust Tinto to find a workable solution based on the info shared here on the subject by you, me and others.