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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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I believe Leeuwarden is spelled incorrectly as Leeuwerden.
I also feel like there is currently an incosistency regarding Dutch versus English spelling for the North/Noord (and other directions). Noord and Zuid Holland are in Dutch, while the others (e.g. Brabant, Flanders and Limburg) are in English.
 
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Concerning the map, I have some questions:

- Why do you choose to represent the Frisian Freedoms as one tag?
- Where Bentheim?
- Are the Dutch cultures in 1337 part of the overarching German culture group? As a Dutchman I really do hope so.
- Eastern Netherlands should be Lower Saxon culture

Yeey Antwerpen market.

As someone who lives in the HRE I love these maps.
 
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
I believe a better option would be splitting
Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

View attachment 1130588
The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

View attachment 1130589
We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

View attachment 1130889

Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

View attachment 1130626
View attachment 1130627
View attachment 1130628
We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

View attachment 1130590
The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

View attachment 1130591
Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

View attachment 1130592
Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

View attachment 1130593
We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
so is there no possibility of land reclamation.
 
Currently I'm applying for jobs in the GIS sector, so naturally I'm curious:

Can you expand on the technical part?
E.g. what GIS tools did you use? Were all academic sources already in a GIS data format or did you have to create your own sources from text/ancient maps?
ArcMap and QGIS. We've gathered maps over the years from different sources, many others by georeferencing maps, @Aldaron already had a database of his own as per his previous experience as a modder, etc.
 
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Just some Feedback that might of course get buried: Both Düren and Hunsrück are misspelled in here, being written with a mere "u" instead of the german "ü". I'm not sure if this is intentional or not (keeping with english spelling), but since you already have Königssondergau with an "ö" I assume it might be an oversight.
 
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Assumption!
If there is a Serbian minority living in Hungary, will it be possible to influence them to immigrate to Serbia?
Will it be possible to strengthen your culture in a neighboring country?
 
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Thanks, great map:)

Some detail questions (from local knowledge)

What's the naming convention? Brugge and Ghent don't seem to follow the same one?

For Bruges: shouldn't it include the western part of today's zeeuws Vlaanderen (location Hulst), which included its port access for most of the game period? I'd also make it swamp.

On the other side of Flanders: Maasmechelen is a 20th century name. Since there's already a Mechelen, maybe name it Tongeren, which is a Roman town in that location?

Zeeland only one location, with the much smaller (even if complete) Zeeuws Vlaanderen separate seems quite unequal, I'd either not have zeeuws Vlaanderen (adding the remainder to sint niklaas) or walcheren (the main island of Zeeland) separate from the rest of the county. With the size of next-door Breda, probably first?

I also don't like the culture map :p
I respectfully do not agree. If you want to model Zeeuws Vlaanderen in game, and the historical territory of the Dutch Republic, the Hulst location is needed.
Why are Pearls a tradegood in the Low Countries? Pretty sure neither saltwater nor freshwater pearl clams lived there back then.

Zeeland is known for its mussels, but those don't make pearls.
Yeah, I find pearls to be a surprising trade good produced in the Netherlands. It might be a gameplay related decision ?

From my study of Dutch history when I was doing my masters degree, I remember that Zeeland was quite the producer of dyes at the time (common madder or rubia tinctorum) other than fish and salt.
Rubia Tinctorum L. from Author : Goverdina C.H. Derksen, Teris A. Van Beek
"There is evidence that madder was already cultivated in The Netherlands in the 12th century. The madder cultivated in the clay soil of the province of Zeeland was long considered the finest madder in Europe"
 
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please dont group cultures like in eu4, make it like a proximity system, where you can go from 0% to 100% and depending on the geographical closenes and other factors let that change. but please dont make it like in eu4 with groups. pls <3

A example would be, let you as a iberian nation take a location in marroco, lets say you have a assimilation system and you are at 20% for some reaseon let there the possibility to sponsor festivals of your culture there and the assimilation increases for 1% every year for coin.
Or change Admiistrativ language to primare culter on: makes a one time big unrest which decays over lets say 50 years but increases assimilation increases for 2% every year
Do you have the slightest idea of how to implement this without making the game unplayable after a few decades due to lag? Such a complicated solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
 
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super exciting! This might not be relevant yet as I assume the design is wip, but the borders struck me as too thick. Maybe it's just the solid black color when zoomed in, looks like someone took a sharpie marker to it.
 
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Can we get 'city tags' as in HOI4 and the atlas mapmode in Imperator? They look pretty neat. Also, will the player be able to rename, in-game, localizations and provinces?

Untitled-1 copy.png
 
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