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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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Wiki claims 6M in iberia, but sources we have has it at around the 9M we have in the game.
But if iberia has 9M in 1337, before the black death, will the game be able to simulate population growth until the 1800s realistic? The dates which game last, world population was around 1 billion. So can you say black death will kill half of population in europe? Or it will more easy for us to defeat plague
 
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EDIT: I might have commented before reading thoroughly the TT, I have now realised that the province/location names are dynamic so all that I have written has been taken into account... Still, I'm going to leave the post up for if it of use to anybody...

Incredible work!

This is much more detailed than I thought I'd ever see Iberia represented on a game map.

My only nitpick is the inconsistent naming between Catalan/Valencian and Spanish/Castillian in both the location and province map in what at this moment in time would be the Kingdom of València.
Regarding provinces both Castellò and Xàtiva are written in Catalan, which I think is the correct move, because at this time the Catalan population accumulated most of the wealth and political power in the kingdom. But València is depicted as Valencia, the Castillian/Aragonese name.

Then in the locations map all Valencian locations except for the ones inside of the province of Castellò are written in their Castillan/Spanish versions, including Játiva, which is strange, because it is the Castillian version of Xàtiva, the province of the same name. This would be understandable if all locations in Iberia were written in Spanish, but this is not the case, as the provinces in Catalonia are written in their Catalan Names.

To fix the inconsistency maybe it would be advisable to change either all of the locations in the Kingdom of València to their Catalan/Valencian name or at least change the locations with majority Catalan populations at game start. My proposed changes would be (with links to the Catalan Wikipedia as proof of it being the correct name in Catalan):
Majority Catalan locations:
  • Valencia -> València
  • Játiva -> Xàtiva
  • Dénia -> Dénia (same)
  • Orihuela -> Oriola
Catalan names of majority Aragonese locations:
  • Villar del Arzobispo -> El Villar
  • Chelva -> Xelva
  • Buñol -> Bunyol (not majority aragonese at game start but I'll still include it here)
  • Ayora -> Aiora
Also, regarding the Balearic Islands some of the names also seem to be in Castillan/Spanish, even though they are majority Catalan (even more so than in the Kingdom of València):

Catalan names of the Balearic Islands:
  • Palma de Mallorca -> Palma (just Palma, without "de Mallorca", but maybe at the time the name of the city would have been just "Mallorca", further research might be needed)
  • Manacor -> Manacor (Same)
  • Ibiza -> Eivissa
  • Menorca -> Menorca (Same)
  • Formentera -> (Not represented in the map but the fourth major Island of the Balearics) Formentera (same)

Regardless of this the map is very detailed and follows historical borders and cultures much better than other paradox games (or any game tbh). This might seem like a minor nitpick, and it might be so, but this would be the most historically accurate names and the ones that would be employed at the time. Personally I think that changing the names of the Catalan majority locations and provinces to Catalan would be the best move.
 
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Incredible work!

This is much more detailed than I thought I'd ever see Iberia represented on a game map.

My only nitpick is the inconsistent naming between Catalan/Valencian and Spanish/Castillian in both the location and province map in what at this moment in time would be the Kingdom of València.
Regarding provinces both Castellò and Xàtiva are written in Catalan, which I think is the correct move, because at this time the Catalan population accumulated most of the wealth and political power in the kingdom. But València is depicted as Valencia, the Castillian/Aragonese name.

Then in the locations map all Valencian locations except for the ones inside of the province of Castellò are written in their Castillan/Spanish versions, including Játiva, which is strange, because it is the Castillian version of Xàtiva, the province of the same name. This would be understandable if all locations in Iberia were written in Spanish, but this is not the case, as the provinces in Catalonia are written in their Catalan Names.

To fix the inconsistency maybe it would be advisable to change either all of the locations in the Kingdom of València to their Catalan/Valencian name or at least change the locations with majority Catalan populations at game start. My proposed changes would be (with links to the Catalan Wikipedia as proof of it being the correct name in Catalan):
Majority Catalan locations:
  • Valencia -> València
  • Játiva -> Xàtiva
  • Dénia -> Dénia (same)
  • Orihuela -> Oriola
Catalan names of majority Aragonese locations:
  • Villar del Arzobispo -> El Villar
  • Chelva -> Xelva
  • Buñol -> Bunyol (not majority aragonese at game start but I'll still include it here)
  • Ayora -> Aiora
Also, regarding the Balearic Islands some of the names also seem to be in Castillan/Spanish, even though they are majority Catalan (even more so than in the Kingdom of València):

Catalan names of the Balearic Islands:
  • Palma de Mallorca -> Palma (just Palma, without "de Mallorca", but maybe at the time the name of the city would have been just "Mallorca", further research might be needed)
  • Manacor -> Manacor (Same)
  • Ibiza -> Eivissa
  • Menorca -> Menorca (Same)
  • Formentera -> (Not represented in the map but the fourth major Island of the Balearics) Formentera (same)

Regardless of this the map is very detailed and follows historical borders and cultures much better than other paradox games (or any game tbh). This might seem like a minor nitpick, and it might be so, but this would be the most historically accurate names and the ones that would be employed at the time. Personally I think that changing the names of the Catalan majority locations and provinces to Catalan would be the best move.
Had to delete the wikipedia links due to spam filter
 
It's how the Köppen classification depicts it, although it may be counter-intuitive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-arid_climate

puzzle coming along nicely. north africa, desht and some bits n bobs left



pop breakdown of tarragona

TX1paNgsYnH4SO0ZWP2NOrbtNa8O20QO9w-Ps-VwjSN8uhMZca-pxt0P2kND5gOnejQfklB6AQpb_C3XH2cB9hF_6sd6GSxbsgygmOmvnUbPCfgWS_BvIq7fPQzBYgy0mYwAccRxR-vFvYfL5jptBMs



View attachment 1134424

emoji-timeline
Alpine tundra probably?
With cold arid I picture something more like Antarctica! Central antarctica is technically a desert (no precipitation), outer regions might be classed as arid.

@Johan @Pavía I think a better term for this would be Semi-Arid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-arid_climate

(There's also then cold/cool semi-arid, and hot semi-arid)
Antarctica is Ice cap climate or "EF" which means no month has mean temperate above 0°C. Cold arid climates have hot or warm summers although not as hot as they are in hot arid ones but have cold winters (unlike hot arid). So Antarctica and Arctic are classified in polar climate family (ET- tundra, and EF - ice cap climate).
 
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First up, wonderful job! However could you elaborate on what didn't work with having a separate market for Portugal?

I'm asking as it's important for the 1337 start date and the 100 Years War that Portugal and England formed an alliance which was both military and economic in 1386. Let's not forget that John of Gaunt tried to claim the Castillian crown during this period as well and got the support of the Portuguese King Fernando in 1371. In 1372, a Castillian galley fleet blockaded the Tagus (Lisbon), showing clear impact on trade.*

Independent mercantile policy and alignment with England had momentous consequences for Portugal throughout the play period into the Napoleonic age, with e.g. France often threatening Portugal in 1600-1700s to break off its strong trading relationship with its enemy England. And when Portugal was absorbed via PU into Spain (1580-1640), it suffered from becoming the periphery in a larger market previously having guided its own mercantile path.

I hear that you're saying a separate market can be created later and perhaps game mechanics allow blockades of fellow market members (the recent dev diary doesn't suggest this tho). But I wonder whether given the geopolitical relevance both at the start and into the 1800s, you guys might want to reconsider the markets at game start, or making it likely for the AI to form its own Portuguese market, not just when you're actively playing Portugal. The Anglo-Lusitan alliance of 1386 would be a great event to integrate which should have implications for markets as it did in history.

*Btw my source for all the above is a really good book that covers both political and economic history, you map makers might find it very useful: A. R. Disney (2009): History of Portugal and the Portuguese Empire: From Beginnings to 1807 - A History of Portugal and the Portuguese Empire (Volume 1), p 115.
 
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@Pavía,
@Pavía By the way, some notes about population

First, isn't the population in the north a bit high? Tolosa location has 2x Pamplona location population, despite Merindad of Pamplona landscape transitioning into Lodosa with little geographical/economic change and Pamplona actually being a more urbanized center. Baztan is a more mountainous area, but Bayonne is coherent with Pamplona and the rest of Navarra, not with Tolosa. Alava seems more coherent but again Bilbao seems a bit high for the period (its industrial development is after Project Caesar end). In general, Navarra, Landas and Alava seems coherent, with Guipuzcoa and Bilbao being a bit of outliers that seem to represent more the modern cities that the cities at 1337. I'm not sure about Santander, I'd need to revisit the dates in which the Villas del Mar were given privileges.

Some other figures may need some tuning. Aragon lost a lot of population due to Black Death+War of the Two Peters but that has yet to happen in the start of the game. It again lost population during the morisco expulsion. So, if figures are somewhat extrapolated from current population, they are likely to understimate 1337 population. If I had to point some odd things:
  • Barbastro as urban center and richer farmland ("Somontano") having the less population than Benabarre, a more montainous and poorer area (even though the location includes Graus, which was a bit more urbanized). There are actually several historic analysis about wine/olive production moving south from Pyrenees to Somontano after the XII century because Barbastro was so much more fertile that the areas to the north, as well as regarding the founding of several new villages in the area during the XII-XIII-XIV century.
  • It is a bit unusual that Merindad de Tudela seems to be more densely populated that Zaragoza since they were similar in some aspects. Zaragoza was the main urban center during Al Andalus with Tudela being secondary to Zaragoza. The locations of Pina de Ebro and Zuera may mean Zaragoza surroundings are a bit more split, but still it feels a bit unbalanced.
  • Zuera should have a bit more population. Several locations (El Castellar, Santa Pola, Santa Inés) in the left margin of the Ebro were abandoned in the XVI-XVII centuries but until then there was a somewhat active road in that part. It is now mainly depopulated, but they should add to the Zuera figure. Zuera location extends to Zaragoza proper and since the XIII there was a major irrigation system (Camarera / Candevania) that meant the area in both banks of the Lower Gallego was relatively productive. Villamayor, Peñaflor etc developed during the start of the game or even before.
  • Tarazona, Calatayud and Teruel were briefly occupied by Castile during the war of the Two Peters, with the population of many villages in Daroca/Calatayud/Teruel communities being relocated by Aragon to castles and other defensibe areas. That, together with the black Death, depopulated many villages.
    • It makes not a lot of sense that Calatayud has half of Medinaceli population (there are a lot of villages in the rivers of that area).
    • Tarazona being less populated than Agreda, despite Tarazona being the major urban center of the Upper Queiles (and seat of the bishopship) makes no sense. Even less if Tarazona figure is expected to include other urban centers like Borja and Magallón. We should also remember that both Tarazona and Borja had quite relevant muslim communities in villages that were abandoned after the morisco expulsion or had to be rebuilt (Rivas, Calcena, Alcalá de Moncayo, Alberite...). If you finally split the location as I proposed, it will likely also be better to add more population to better catch this.
    • Daroca should be a relatively urban center until these events (it was in the Muslim period one century before) but now has less population than Molina. Rather than that, there are records of creation of new farmland (by cutting woods and desecating marshes) around Daroca just at the beginning of the XIV century.
  • Lower Aragon (Alcañiz, Belchite) seems better. Belchite and the Aguasvivas irrigation system took a hit with Muslim expulsion but figures there doesn't seem incoherent with others, its just the Ebro banks area that seems underrepresented.
Valencia is also worth a major check. The muslim expulsion there was a major demographic event that needs to be able to happen without ruining the non-urban locations. I also find a bit odd that the Maestrazgo (Morella etc) seems very populated compared with the more fertile Mijares river. This, however, could be right, since Morella was an important urban center in the period.
 
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We got that initially, but it got completely messed up when we added the Chinese and Indian pops...
could it be possible with like "equal counts" or "logarithmic" (sorry I'm speaking in QGIS symbology classification language) classification rather than "pretty beaks"? Like:

not,
0-50
50-100
100-150
...

but,
0-50
50-200
200-1000
1000+

I really really love to see a population and population density map worldwide. Vic3 have population one and I think it works good. Maybe not location but per province?
 
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But no one is speaking of any "duke of Galicia". We are speaking of the lack of centralization and the pertinence of creating vassals (for the case "adelantamientos" and maybe other models for "La Hermandad de las Marismas" and other types of lordships).

And in some way there actually was a "duke of Galicia", not in name but recognised as such by their contempraries and pairs. U have the count of Lemos Pedro Álvares Osorio that was regarded as "Cabeza y Luz de los Señores de Galicia" (or something alike, I do not remember exactly the phrase). Others as Fernando Ruis de Castro were regarded as the head of all Galicia (and not just because the title of "Adiantado Mor", in fact the title is partly consecuence of their status as head of that region).

As well those conflicts are partly because of royal candidates, yes, but is not that those candidates win appreciation over a place (towns, nobles, etc.) but more like that place see them useful to improve their "conditions"/"stand". That's clearly the case in the 14th century for Galicia. U have a place linked to England, Flanes, Hansa and Portugal (through trade and culture and family links for the last one) and an European conflict with a dynasty aligning with the France and its allies (Trastamara), that will make the case for Galician towns and nobles to find any other candidate to preserve their economy and links (Pedro I, Fernando I de Portugal, Jhon of Gaunt, etc.)
Pedro Álvarez Osorio was considered the greatest lord of all Galicia, but he didn't have control over all of the territory. In fact, he obtained most of his territory because of donations of the king. And, in any case, he is far later than this point and loyal to the Castilian interests. And most importantly, he was from a time with even more centralisation on Castile, after Enrique Trastámara defeated Pedro I and substituted most of the old nobility that supported Pedro by the new nobility, which he used to create a service nobility that helped him centralize the kingdom even more.

As for Fernando Ruis de Castro, his title was not hereditary, his own father had no titles and was named Adelantado of Andalucía and Murcia, and not Galicia. The Castros are even originally from Burgos.

There was no hereditary family that controlled all of Galicia, and Galicia had no special laws that made it that different from Castile. It had no Cortes, which León had until 1349, and nobody believes León should be a PU of Castile I think.

Just because Galicians were quite rebellious in this period it doesn't prove they had special autonomy, it may prove they wanted it, but no more than that. Even then, Galicia was far from the only territory that supported Pedro I.
 
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Regarding the color coding in the population map being skewed by India and China:

1) You could have the color coding only display regions youve selected and have the population color code change on a region by region basis that is calculated on that region's average. Like 200,000 may be a lot in Western Europe and it would be a green location but it would be yellowish in China with 1,000,000 being green.
 
Why aren't there more Muslims and Andalusians at this date? And there even should be some Jews because in the year 1490 almost 3 million Muslims and Jews were expelled and it was a big deal back then
 
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Do units move around the map at the location level or at the province level? Sorry if this was answered before.
 
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A question less about content and more about script: is there a naming convention for the "base name" of a province/location? Say, will province#9001 be called Lisboa in the script and then only change to Lisbon/Lisbonne if held by an English/French tag, or will it be called province#9001 with no base localisation and then be called Lisboa if the owner is Portuguese, Lisbon if English, and Lisbonne if French?

This may seem like a silly question in the context of centuries-old European locations, but here I have New World/colonial locations in mind.
 
Hi Pavia,
Writing from Sant Cugat here :)

You are very correct about vegetation:
I would suggest adding the following types:

-Bush: bush/chaco/dense savanna' kind of type, which is a semi arid forest with thorned bushes that are almost impossible to traverse sometimes, but feel still quite arid. Present in Paraguay, Australia, Africa, etc.
-Taiga: conniferous forest/cold pine trees.
-Pinewoods: (Pineda in catalan ;), the types of forests that emerge when it's too hot/arid to have deciduous trees (beeches, oaks, etc), but too moist/cold to have scrub/bush/desert. Normally in the mediterranean.
-Shrub: An alternative name for semi arid vegetation.
-Rainforest: Super humid type of forest, be it temperate (chilean araucania, norway... or tropical jungle).

Also, maybe separating hills to rolling hills and abrupt hills (escarpados vs teletubilandia para entendernos).

Additionally, maybe it would make sense creating a Santander market. Merino wool and other commercial items were shipped from there to the low countries. In general the iberian north atlantic regions did not interact with Seville in the low middle ages.

I absolutely love how you made the catalan impassable terrains in the pyrenees. It's spectacular, congrats.
 
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Hey there, very excited for this awesome super secret game that not a single soul has a clue about it´s name :D
Some friendly feedback I´d like to point out:
1- As many people has pointed out before, I really think you guys should split Elvas and make a new location near Badajoz called Olivenza/Olivença since it´s was at the begining part of Castile but ceded later to Portugal in 1297, being a contested place between Spain and Portugal for the coming centuries until 1801, when it was finally conquered by Spain during the 'War of the Oranges'.
2 - What´s up with Coria Being part of Salamanca province? (Always say no to bordergore).

3- Don´t know if this will be helpful but maybe in the Llerena Location the raw resource should be Iron instead because of a famous iron mine that is located in that place ( The mine didn´t really start to kick off until 1900 but apparently it was being exploited in a less 'formal' way since the Roman times. Would be nice to have that to add more flavour to that particular region, even if the players or AI decided to develop other iron mines elsewhere like it happened int real life.

4- According to official sources from the goverment of Murcia, the climate there is considered subtropical mediterranean (semiarid) even nowadays, so I supose that before heavy industrialization of the XIX and XX centuries, when temperature started to rise, it would be more realistic to portray most of Levante Coast as Mediterranean.
Hope it helps
Cheers
P.D: Sources for points 1,3 and 4 can be provided but the forum keeps telling me when I attach them that my post can´t be posted for spamming too much (Yes, this is my first post in the forum)
 
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For modding, is it possible to change the scale to have even more detail and a larger world? Is there a concern with performance should you go any higher with the location count?
 
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People that are worried about the population of Spain need to take into account:
1. Black Death
2. Expulsion of moriscos (up to 1/3 of the population in zones of Valencia)
3. Expulsion of the sephardi jews.
 
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