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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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Muchas gracias Pavía por este increíble mapa, mi corazón se llena de los detalles y el amor que le has dado a España y más aún a mi querida Andalucía. Todo lo que señalo en este post es sobre Andalucía y más centrado en Cádiz, Huelva y Sevilla, que son partes en las que viví (y sigo viviendo) muchos años. La mayor parte de esta información proviene de diferentes actividades culturales que hicimos en la escuela (vivo en Cádiz) y tuvimos toneladas de recorridos culturales por toda la provincia.

Debo decir que todos habéis hecho un gran trabajo al nombrar muchos asentamientos del tipo "de la frontera" de Cádiz, pero parece que os perdisteis. Morón también se llama Morón de la Frontera desde 1240 después de ser conquistado por Fernando III.

Cádiz también es buena, pero creo que podríamos usar Vejer de la frontera y Tarifa en la parte sureste y sur de Cádiz, ambas fueron lugares importantes durante el tipo, siendo la primera una ciudad hermosa pero aún mejor punto de acceso debido a su altura. Casi 200 m sobre los territorios circundantes tallados por el río Barbate, sin duda un lugar interesante.

Tarifa es también una ciudad muy importante siendo la parte más meridional de la Península Ibérica y también la conexión entre Europa y África. Tarifa es también un lugar muy defensivo con muchos acantilados y fortificaciones a lo largo de su costa que luego se utilizó como primera línea de defensa contra la piratería.

Entonces, ¿tal vez dividir Cádiz en 3 partes y Algecira en 2? Como esto:

View attachment 1134532

Lo de las provincias me cabreó mucho. Sé que basaste las diferencias en los Reinos de Sevilla, Jaén y Córdoba, pero como también agregaste Málaga y Almería, ¡realmente nos estás pegando los ojos al no agregar Cádiz y llamar a Huelva Oeste Sevilla! Las actuales provincias toman su nombre y forma de la División Provincial de Javier de Burgos de 1833. Por favor chicos, no dejéis que Cádiz forme parte de Sevilla. Desde Sanlúcar y Arcos hasta Algeciras debería denominarse Cádiz. Como esto:View attachment 1134533

Sobre el terreno, puedes consultar la parte de Pastizales y Sparce. Todo el terreno también es muy montañoso, no realmente llano. Jerez tiene buenas colinas, la mayoría son tierras de cultivo para el vino y están erosionadas pero es muy visible en el horizonte (no se puede ver Jerez desde Puerto Real o Cádiz debido a las colinas desde El Puerto de Santa María hasta Arcos). Chiclana también es un bosque, hay muchas poblaciones de pinos en esa parte (lamentablemente se está reduciendo debido a la construcción de nuevos hoteles y la economía turística). La mayor parte de El Puerto de Santa María, San Fernando, Puerto Real son Marismas (Los toruños es un parque natural que atraviesa la mayoría de estas ciudades) marcaría la parte interior de la bahía y durante la invasión francesa (1812) hizo imposible Cádiz. para poner sitio.

Terreno:

View attachment 1134535
- Intenté usar el mismo color. Se pasaría a montes en Vejer de la Frontera, Tarifa, Jerez de la Frontera, Arcos de la Frontera, Morón de la Frontera y Osuna y Cádiz pasarían a ser marismas en lugar de pastizales.

Vegetación:

View attachment 1134537
- Bosque (no algunos bosques, en realidad un bosque entero, muy, muy denso). Se podría argumentar que también Cádiz tiene pastizales o incluso bosques dependiendo de la zona que estés mirando.

Ah, y sí, Jerez es famoso por su vino (¿tenemos como 15 variedades de uvas diferentes?), siendo aún más popular alrededor del siglo XVIII en adelante, ¿tal vez algún tipo de evento o modificación para convertir el vino en producto más adelante?

Lo siento si sientes que te niegan tu trabajo. ¡Literalmente hiciste un muy buen trabajo y lo mejor que pudiste! ¡Realmente me encantan los mapas y esos cambios son solo para mejorarlos!
Fantastic! I totally agree.
 
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Amazing maps, I really enjoyed seeing my hometown there.

Just to let you know, circa 1330, on the chronicle of Muntaner, the historian says (Chapter XVII) that Murcia, Cartagena, Orihuela, Elche, Guardamar and Alicante were repopulated by catalans after the conquest, and catalan was currently spoken there. This should be specially strong in Cartagena, as there are many catalan surnames, many loanwords from catalan which are not used in any other places of Murcia and seseo inherited from catalan and unique from the area of Cartagena.
 
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Will there be a way to represent the constituent parts of the Crown of Aragon and the wars of the Union, when Aragon and Valencia rebelled? When Castile made Aragon have no access to a muslim border and further land expansion became impossible, Aragonese nobles wanted to ensure their privileges because of the new Mediterranean adventures of the Crown, as they had no way to expand in land. They enforced the privileges of the Union in 1287 that, among other things, made them immune from the king and made annual compulsory Cortes. In 1347, Valencia sublevated because of succession wanting the same rights as Aragon and forming the Union of Valencia. The king was defeated but in 1348 proceeded to beat the Aragonese and then the Valencians. He then proceded to punish the Valencias more severely than the Aragonese.

If Aragon had a system to represent the interests of the 3 main parts you could make civil wars like the War of the Union and the Catalonian Civil War happen when the king angers one of the constituent parts.
 
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I may be incorrect here, but in EU4, Dynamic Province Names had to be done manually. This limits the amount of variation possible. I wonder if there is a smarter way of doing it for Project Caesar. Especially with the amount of locations, surely it will be impossible to give every single location even 2 different names.
 
Please name the West Sevilla province "Huelva", it's the name it has on that time until now. Also pretty important location as the Colon expedition to the indies sailed from there in "Palos de Moger".
 
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
View attachment 1134319
The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
View attachment 1134322
Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Fraga, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
View attachment 1134324
Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
View attachment 1134325
View attachment 1134326
View attachment 1134378
Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
View attachment 1134456
Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
View attachment 1134335
The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1134336
This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
View attachment 1134381
This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
View attachment 1134340

And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
Considering that we presumably won’t have a separate tinto maps for them, would it be possible for us to see the Azores/Madeira? They were after all an extension of Iberia.
 
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Several people think what was done recently in EU4 with Bavarian and Austrian localized names wasn’t the best move as in some cases, the spelling remained German, only the pronunciation was changed.

In the case of this game, will everything be extremely localized or only to the extent where it’s considered a mainstream localization? In the Netherlands map you have West Flanders and East Flanders in Dutch but here you have West Seville and East Seville as well as Old Catalonia, etc. Will these names be localized as well or is localization only done when the names did exist in history at some point?
 
Great and constructive feedback, thanks!

Oriola changed to Castilian culture after the expulsion of the Andalusian population in the 17th century, which left the region severely underpopulated. And as they already pointed out, the division of the Kingdom of Valencia was in Governacions just like you drew them until Oriola was incorporated, when it was divided in two Governacions (Oriola and València) and València further split in three Sosgovernacions or districts: dellà l'Uixò, València and dellà el Xúquer, marking the rivers that drew the divisive lines and that would land Aiora in the Xàtiva/dellà el Xuquer distric.

Furthermore it should be pointed out that Cabdet (also known as Caudete) was at this time part of the Kingdom of Valencia, and that the area of Aiora and Cofrentes was largely of Castilian culture, as it was first populated by Castilians and then acquired by the Crown of Aragon. The extension of Aragonese culture in the kingdom of València ought to be limited to what's popularly known as the "Comarques Xurres" or "Comarcas Churras", which include the locations of Buñol, Chelva, Villar del Arzobispo (and I believe at this point in time this town was known as El Villar, although Segorbe, a city which had a Bishopric would be a much better fit) and Llucena.

Regarding the especifics of the borders, they're accurate and the comments provided are largely useful, but I would also advise not following current-day shires (comarques) too tightly, as they often respond to modern realities. For example, Oriola extends up to Xixona, which would have fallen in the jurisdiction of Dénia as the limits between governations followed the Biar-Busot line. Fontanar dels Alforins and Font de la Figuera, which currently are within Aiora would be better at home in Xàtiva and Alzira ought to have it's own location, as it had it's own particular and general terminus and was of great importance as it already has been pointed out.

Also Peníscola has a really weird shape, and I understand that this is trying to represent the domains of the Ordre de Montesa, but I believe it'd be better to follow this map and limit it to the northernmost areas in the valencian Maestrat, and draw Castelló so that it covers the areas in l'Alcora's shire.

Overall, impressive work, seems like a huge step up from EU4! Really excited to play the game!
 
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Several people think what was done recently in EU4 with Bavarian and Austrian localized names wasn’t the best move as in some cases, the spelling remained German, only the pronunciation was changed.
Those names are absolutely absurd, spelling out dialect pronunciations. o_O I hope we do not have to deal with that in this game.
 
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1. True, fixing.
2. Yes, as much as 30% of the world's production before the 19th century.
3. There's more Cold Arid across the world, like in the Central Asian steppes.
If you do more city name changes, maybe not for launch, but it'd be nice to have some event related to when Felipe V burned Xàtiva and change the name of the city to "San Felipe"
 
Wiki claims 6M in iberia, but sources we have has it at around the 9M we have in the game.
I summed up the pop count of each Iberian nation in the screenshot and got these numbers:
-Castile: 5 728 245
-Portugal: 1 338 771
-Aragon: 1 363 786
-Navarra: 246 386
-Mallorca: 124 003 (not including Montpellier)
-Granada: 520 459
-Morocco: 57 624

Total: 9 379 274
Doesn't include the Azores and other islands in the Atlantic as they aren't in the picture.
 
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I summed up the pop count of each Iberian nation in the screenshot and got these numbers:
-Castile: 5 728 245
-Portugal: 1 338 771
-Aragon: 1 363 786
-Navarra: 246 386
-Mallorca: 124 003 (not including Montpellier)
-Granada: 520 459
-Morocco: 57 624

Total: 9 379 274
Doesn't include the Azores and other islands in the Atlantic as they aren't in the picture.
I think people need to take into account that this are pre-Black Death numbers.
 
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Hello here from Alicante. First of all i would like to thank for all the work put into it. It is incredible how many provinces and places you guys represented.
I have the only request, as you suggested in the tinto maps to put Alicante as a province taking into account that it is not only important as a city, but also counts with the Castillo de Santa Bárbara, an enormous castle made by the muslims ( I am sure you already know) and i would like to highlight it as my duty of being “alicantino”. Also I don”t know if the province name should be named Xátiva or Alicante, but i am sure you know better than me of the importance of the cities in the XIV century. Thanks for taking into account all the feedback and I will follow the tinto maps and talks until proyect Cesar becomes a reality.
 
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We got that initially, but it got completely messed up when we added the Chinese and Indian pops...
The development color map of EUIvwas such several versions earlier, but now it’s based on gap/differences rather than the exact numbers - sorry, no guys else know EUIV better than u.

And, Vicky 3 color map might be a good example, using colors that’s not that outstandinging.
 
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The location density in portugal is much less than in castille, you should at least split figueira da foz (the coast) from coimbra, maybe Sintra from Torres Vedras, Olhão (or maybe sagres is even better) from Lagos, Peniche from Leiria and a few more, maybe in terms of provinces even Beira into Beira Interior and Beira Litoral would be a good fit.
I just find it wierd that comparing to like Galiza Portugal has so much more chunky provinces and locations.
 
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Peniscola spotted, this is officially the best game ever! Jokes aside, happy to see small cities/towns getting more recognition, and i really hope to see a fort from day 1 in the Peniscola location ;)
 
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