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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
View attachment 1134319
The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
View attachment 1134322
Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Fraga, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
View attachment 1134324
Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
View attachment 1134325
View attachment 1134326
View attachment 1134378
Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
View attachment 1134456
Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
View attachment 1134335
The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1134336
This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
View attachment 1134381
This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
View attachment 1134340

And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
I think you should put the city of Braga as a separate location since it is relatively important and the location of Guimaraes is very large compared to the others
 
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I suggest you tone it down a bit because that won't help you make your point. ;)

That said, we'll go through your feedback, as checking sources in detail is part of the job we're doing every day for Project Caesar. But we've already answered in other posts some of this stuff, like the naming inconsistency; e.g., 'Orense' in the location, and 'Ourense' in the province, which is not bad faith, but an overlook, that also happens in other places (Saragossa-Zaragoza).
Yeap, sorry about the tone. At that point a severe miss-treatment of how Galicia is represented is almost a trend. Sorry anyways.
Yup, I had not any complain about the naming stuff (I imagine that names were provided in the language of the main culture ruling each place). But if not, I would have not problem in give you the local names (they are all written in Spanish, little correspondence to real/local names in that sense).

The other claims (numbered ones) are the trully important, I hope the sources provided come handly for u.

Again, sorry about the tone.
 
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Hi Valencian here! I love how this super secret project is going, but I want to make some suggestions about the old Kingdom of Valencia to ensure a better representation of the region.

Locations:
  • As you stated, the Oriola (Orihuela) location should be split to give representation to Alacant (Alicante). Although this city was not as important at the start date (the aristocratic administration was built around Oriola), played a major role historically because it was a fast-growing merchant city (with a great presence of burgers later on) that over the years dethroned the importance of Oriola in regional importance.
  • The location of Valencia is too big and misrepresented. The south of the Valencia location could be split to represent the important agricultural region around the Albufera. This was the first region to plant rice in the peninsula when the andalusians were there, and later was replicated in the Ebro Delta (Tortosa) and Seville (in the XX century). (Right now I don't have much time to show good sources, but this in Spanish can do: link 1). There's no good name for a location this big (using a city name, but you could use La Ribera) but I think you could use the city of Alzira as a placeholder. This was an important city at the moment (aristocratically) as this was the place where the James I the conqueror abdicated to his son and died.
Provinces:
  • The province of Xativa should have Ayora.
  • There should be a southern province named Oriola/Alacant (as you consider) to represent the old self-governing region of Oriola (it was officially created later, in 1366, but I think It should exist because of its later importance). This one could have the new Alacant location and Oriola. This source can give some clues (the catalan version is more updated than the english one. But either of them should be good) link 2. If, for gameplay reasons, there are too few locations to create a new province, you could also add an Elx (Elche) location to further divide the region (important agricultural city).
Culture:
There's a lot that should be revisited for historical accuracy. I'm no that expert, but I know that the most recent study was made by Vicent Baydal, a historicist and chronicler of Valencia years ago. In this article, you have the map that was presented by his studies: link 3. Notable changes be: Morella should have catalans, Oriola (also Alacant) should have catalans in that period (Oriola changed to spanish after the plague I think, but don't know when exactly, but around the start date... And I don't know the pop distribution, but there should be a lot of andalusians as their expulsion in later centuries was a big deal for the kingdom (if I recall correctly the kingdom lost a third of its pops)

Sorry for the long speech, I hope some of these suggestions can be taken into consideration!
Great and constructive feedback, thanks!
 
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how could an arid climate be cold?
Aridness is not directly related to temperature. It relates to available water, arid climates refer to places where the lack of water prevents a lot of life(animals and vegetation) from appearing. Patagonia, for example, is pretty arid and it's also very cold.
Related to this, the same applies to desert. The world's biggest desert is Antartica after all
 
I think it makes sense to add Montblanc, Lleida Balaguer and Tarragona have weird appendixes that could be fixed by adding the location.
True on that. I mentioned before to split Lleida to add La Granadella, but Montblanc is more important and can receive land from Lleida Balaguer and Tarragona locations. Montblanc is where they legend of Saint George and the dragon is based, according to Catalan folklore :)
 
I’m seeing a part of North Africa, I hope it’s culture isn’t brushed as Arab with small pockets of native cultures because it was the opposite, Arabian migrations were few and didn’t replace the existing people, they only started speaking Arabic
 
I'm really curious how interesting it is going to be to play as Iberian nations, considering the fact you are a century further from colonialism. I was afraid it is going to be just inferior version of eu4.

But now I see a lot of different aspects of this starting position, and a lot of potential for fun drama.
- Portugal and Castille being bitter enemies, instead of friends of 1444 AD (it's especially going to be PITA for smaller Portugal)
- Muslim minorities across peninsula are a pleasant surprise, with a lot of potential for disturbances
- That small Moroccan foothold in Iberia will make for great and dramatic wars :)
- Aragon having its own Mediterranean adventures instead of being insta eaten by Castille 90% of the time
- Aragon having provinces in France, a ot of messy minors near border and French dynastic connections may cause great frictions with France (and England)

Perhaps it won't be as boring as I was afraid...
 
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Religiously more important yes

irrelevant, this is 1337

again, irrevelant

again, religiously more important

what is this "second city of Portugal" definition? You forget Coimbra maybe? What makes Braga important other than religion?
Look, I'm not going to spend more time with this futile discussion ok? I just made one post with some suggestions for the Paradox team if they even happened to read it and you decided to turn this into a silly discussion about what's the "real" second most important city in the country! I replied once to you and you keep nitpicking about it, I really don't care anymore. You keep your opinion and I keep mine and that's it.

Bye!
 
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Great map loved it, but as someone from Aveiro to see it as Esgueira is somewhat strange, i don't see other districts wrong, just that one honestly, would love if you could maybe change that. But apart from that it simply looks amazing and I'm looking forward into more of this!
 
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5) Couto Misto
5.1) You have done a wonderful and crazy work over Germany and Central Europe. Seriously ayou are not able to include a Micro-State for the Couto Misto? Much more relevant that some German "sovereign" micro-towns under a 3rd line bishop.
I love microstates as much as anyone, but this is simply wrong. Couto Mixto had an area of ~20km2 and a population that I doubt ever crossed more than a few hundred in some poor villages.

The German nations in cover locations more than ten times the size (often due to consolidation of a few of them, to be fair) and centered on towns and castles, with populations clearly in the thousands or tens of thousands.

You'll have to wait for mods for this one:)
 
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I would consider splitting or reshaping Gibraltar for aesthetic reasons - while not feasible to make it as small as British Gibraltar actually was, making it shaped more like the peninsular enclave it was (by having the redrawn location hew much closer to the coast) would do a lot better. Gibraltar's hinterland could be split or given to other locations.
 
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Look, I'm not going to spend more time with this futile discussion ok? I just made one post with some suggestions for the Paradox team if they even happened to read it and you decided to turn this into a silly discussion about what's the "real" second most important city in the country! I replied once to you and you keep nitpicking about it, I really don't care anymore. You keep your opinion and I keep mine and that's it.

Bye!
literally just asked you, no need to get triggered. it didn't seem like you had an opinion but rather that you were stating a fact and i wanted to know more about that fact. but if it's just an opinion and not a fact i guess we are done.
 
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@Pavía thanks/gracias for the dev diary. I don't think it has been mentioned, but as someone from this region, I suggest that Murcia should produce silk, there were many silk manufactories at the time and Murcia was famous for the mulberry tree (even referenced in El Quijote). Nowadays we relate Murcia to agriculture, but this sector was more present in the fields of Cartagena. Wine production in Murcia is something relatively new, and concentrated in the north (Yecla, Jumilla, Bullas).

Hope this helps. Glad to send you some paperwork on the silk manufactures if needed.

Best regards!
 
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I apologize if this has been asked before, but will zooming in be like in vic3 and IR or like in eu4? I really like having the map be purely political colors even when zoomed in like in eu4, it has my favourite map of the paradox games
 
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