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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Fraga, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).
I might be wrong, but I'm fairly sure Zaragoza should be named Çaragoça then, since that was the name that was used arounf that time
 
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This is a very small point, but I think the location of Villaviciosa could be renamed, at that moment in time the town was less than a 70 years old. While some accounts say that Gijon was almost deserted it still was a major location in the region, big enough to be place for a seige in 1394.
I am no historian, so I may possibly be very wrong.
 
Is there a potential for the Crown of Castile and Crown of Aragon to be represented as personal unions? So Castile and Leon as seperate countries but in a personal union, same with Aragon, Barcelona and Valencia?

What I remember from my classes about Charles V, it was always difficult to get the different kingdoms to cooperate and to tax them due to them all having their own cortez. It would also bring some more diversity to Iberia which is now already pretty unified compared to other regions of Europe.
 
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I’m really curious what uses mercury will have as a resource for the time period of this game. I only know about it being used for thermometers and other modern science things. Were there enough historical uses of it for it to have its own spot as a raw resource?
It was used in medicine (though sometime later, syphilis was famously treated with mercury), and a redish-orange pigment I forget the name of also came from mercury. And then of course we have the alchemists trying constantly to turn it into gold.
 
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You have Galicia really bad/poorly represented:

1) Territory (López Carreira, A. (2005). O reino medieval de Galicia.)
1.1) Why are you giving it the borders of a 20th century administrative divission (Comunidad Autónoma ~1980's)?
1.2) Galician borders until the 17th century (with an exception for the 16th century) included: Bierzo, Cabreira, Povoa/Pobra de Seabra (Puebla de Sanabria in Spanish), Eo-Navia (as part of Mondoñedo). Ponferrada was considered the "door of Galicia".
1.3) All the previously mentioned lands you put them in...Leon? Why?
1.4) I took that image so you have a visual idea about the landmarks:
View attachment 1134432
1.5) Cabreira, Seabra and Bierzo were under the house(s) of Lemos (1st Castros and 2nd Castros who had their center in Monforte de Lemos).


2) Culture (Dubert Garcia, F. (2004). Variedades xeolingüísticas e cultivo da lingua, crítica dunha hipótese sobre as orixes da fragmentación diatópica do galego.; Castro Moutinho, L. et ali. (2018). Estudos em variação linguística nas línguas românicas.; Luís Regueira, X. (2016). Variación lingüística, dialectoloxía e lingüística histórica: algúns problemas do cambio lingüístico en galego e en portugués.; about identity: González Lopo, D. (2003). Migraciones históricas de los gallegos en el espacio Peninsular (siglos XVI y XIX). Barros,C. (2016). A identidade galego-Portuguesa na Idade Media. USC.; Martins Ferreira, J. P. (2011). A Nobreza Galego-Portuguesa da Diocese de Tui (915-1381). Universidade do Porto.; Pazo Justo, C. (2011). A imagem da Galiza e dos galegos em Portugal entre fi ns do século XIX e primeiras décadas do XX: do imagotipo negativo ao imagotipo de afinidade), and a long etc.)
2.1) Aren't we speaking of a starting date in the 1330's? Galician and Portuguese were not different at all. Neither in identity terms (you have plenity of examples of Galicians and Portugueses been untraceable in documentation and working as locals in both places. I will put samples just of aristocrats, Nuno Freire de Andrade, Fernando Ruis de Castro, Inês de Castro, Joham Fernandes de Andeiro, Rodrigo Annes de Araujo, Pedro Álvares de Soutomaior, Joham de Novoa, etc.).
2.2) If u split Galician-Portuguese, you should do the same with Astur-Leonese (Asturian, Leonese, Mirandese), Spanish/Castillian (Castillian, Toletan, Sevillan, etc.), and as well with Catalonian (Catalan, Valencian, Mallorquine, Ibizenco, etc.). Just to be balanced and fair.
2.3) As that gonna make some spanish fanboys go crazy about the language stuff a little explanation. Look, they were not differences between Galicians and Portugueses. There were not sharp-cut, stright lines differences neither correspondences between what it was Galicia and what it was Portugal. There were several regional varieties that didn't follow any border (today u can still seeing its remains in the languge: some phoneme-use distribution, preferences of word use or grammatical preferences). F.E. Limian Galician was the same cultural variety as the one of Chaves, Ponte da Lima, etc. The one of Vigo and Tuy was as the one of Viana do Castelo and Braga. Obviously the one of Coímbra and Lisbon will not be the same thing as the one in Mondoñedo (but in the same order the Murcian "culture" would have "nothing" to do with that of Cantabria (despite being both Castillians).
2.4) Contact. Culture is built through contact. Galicia have hard passing mountains to the East (to Leon). While sea traveling was easy and cheap. From Coruña to Lisbon in the Middle and Modern Age it would take 2 or 3 days on boat (and there are tons of documents of this boats between Galician and Portuguese ports), while from Coruña to Burgos (land, and less distance) would take over a month.
2.5) So please stop spliting randomly (and in a stupid way tbh) Galician-Portuguese (as Paradox did in CK3 before even any document was written in that language).

PD.: just in case anyone is boored enough and want to consult how different Portuguese and GFalician culture was, please, check:
Corpus Xelmirez (https://ilg.usc.gal/xelmirez/)
Galaeciae Monumenta Historica (https://gmh.consellodacultura.gal/)
...Note, there are documents in Latin, French, English, Spanish, aside of those in Galician-Portuguese.


3) Population (Ladero Quesada, M. A. (2014). Población de las ciudades en la Baja Edad Media, Castilla, Aragón y Navarra. Real Academia de la Historia. p. 137.; Eiras Roel, A. (-). Una primera aproximación a la estructura demográfica urbana de Galicia en el Censo de 1787; Fernández Sordo, A. S. (2010). Historia urbana en la Galicia medieval, balance y perspectivas.)
3.1) As in all the previous games, you display Galicia as an undeveloped poor place, uninhabited. You even placed more inhabitants in the middle of the Meseta (drylands). It was not. It was pretty rich in fact.
3.2) Galicia was one of the most populated areas of the Iberian Peninsula during Middle Ages and Modern Era (7% of all the Crown of Castille in the 16th century).
3.3) About the development, for christ sake, we have the 2nd most sacred christian place, we have an economy around it, and in the past, a population income. Of course Compostela was not London, Paris or Barcelona, but it was pretty much developed.

4) Economics (Ferreira Priegue, E. (1998). Galicia en el comercio marítimo medieval.)
4.1) Again, the generic poor products, food and little valuable stuff. Any research.
4.2) Galicia was one of the main wine producers in the peninsula (shiped to England and Flandes).
4.3) Other products were, tin, iron and lead, salt, shipbuilding, fishing and seals, wood,

View attachment 1134445
Please be aware,
THE NAMES ON THIS MAP ARE "TRANSLATED" TO SPANISH, THEY ARE NOT THEIR LOCAL NAMES.
The map study the medieval economy in the 20th century administrative territory of Galicia (so not the Medieval Galician borders).
The image comes from Elisa Priego book, avaliable online for free.


5) Couto Misto
5.1) You have done a wonderful and crazy work over Germany and Central Europe. Seriously ayou are not able to include a Micro-State for the Couto Misto? Much more relevant that some German "sovereign" micro-towns under a 3rd line bishop.

6) History
6.1) I guess through the poor general state of research over Galicia that it will be during the play-through a paceful easy place. Tottaly wrong perception.
6.2) 1295~1310 Joham I Interregnum. Galician towns and Nobles declare king of Galicia (and León in Zamora) D. Joham I. Despite that seccession being solved in León pretty quick, it was not in Galicia, which remain rebel for around 10 years.
6.3) Portuguese-Castillian War of 1336-39. Galicia was a powerhouse of Portugese supporters.
6.4) 1351-69, 1st Castillian Civil War. Galicia was almost semi-independent ("desnaturalized") under the Castro Family that was a supporter of Pedro I.
6.5) 1369-82, Fernandine Wars. Galician towns and nobles proclaim Fernando I of Portugal as the Galician King.
6.6) 1383-85, Portuguese Interregnum. During this period Galicia was poorly or fully not controlled by Castille. Was as well a center of pro-Portuguese towns and lords. Some of the Towns proclaimed their fidelity to Portugal, others to Castille and others just remain silent. That's why some coastal towns were raided both by Portugueses and Castillians (Galician Campaign 1384).
6.7) 1386-87, Jhon of Gaunt. Galician towns proclaim Jhon of Gaunt and his wife (Constança) as king and queen. The black death force them to sign a treaty with the Castillians.
6.8) After that the kings of Castille seem to had little if no control of Galicia as being at war with the Hansa, Galician towns still trading with them. Even more Juan II of Castille had to sank Hanseatic-Galician convoys as he probably had no control of the port town of A Coruña (Apuntes para la Historia Sajona, Boletín de la Real Academia de la Historia, p. 31).
6.9) 1420. That economic toll probably lead to the burguers and paseant uprising of the "Primeira Irmandade".
I suggest you tone it down a bit because that won't help you make your point. ;)

That said, we'll go through your feedback, as checking sources in detail is part of the job we're doing every day for Project Caesar. But we've already answered in other posts some of this stuff, like the naming inconsistency; e.g., 'Orense' in the location, and 'Ourense' in the province, which is not bad faith, but an overlook, that also happens in other places (Saragossa-Zaragoza).
 
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Originally there was Saffron here, IIRC, which was converted into Spices. We have to test a bit more if this works, or if we need to make Spices a bit more scarce in Europe.

Supply is one side of it, but there's also the question how demand for certain luxury goods scales when populations are wealthier. If Western Europe becomes wealthier than other parts of the world during the game, it should also have more demand for certain goods than poorer regions of the world, meaning that you can buy these goods for cheap there and sell them for big profits in Europe.
 
in what regard? according to Tinto sources, Porto had the higher population (check the pop mapmode)
Look, maybe it wasn't the biggest population wise but as you very well know, Braga was, and is, the City of the Archbishops, it was the ancient Roman city of Bracara Augusta, one of the 3 Roman capitals in Hispania. It was one of the earliest centers of Christianity in Western Europe and the most important religious center in the Kingdom for centuries. Porto was a big city, yes, but it only became the second city of Portugal with the big boom that started in the 16th and especially 17th centuries with the English trade.

So, I stand by what I said!
 
We have both adjective and noun forms for religions. Its a 1 line change to change this for us, but am awaiting @SaintDaveUK for that, as language use and such things is his interests.

Certainly. To elaborate further, the longer 'sunnism' would work in a map legend, but when depicted directly on the map you want to both vary each label as much as possible and have the word be as short as possible while keeping to the most common usage (so Catholic, Sunni, etc). This is especially important when you start having fragmentary majorities as in the prot reformation.
 
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Hi Valencian here! I love how this super secret project is going, but I want to make some suggestions about the old Kingdom of Valencia to ensure a better representation of the region.

Locations:
  • As you stated, the Oriola (Orihuela) location should be split to give representation to Alacant (Alicante). Although this city was not as important at the start date (the aristocratic administration was built around Oriola), played a major role historically because it was a fast-growing merchant city (with a great presence of burgers later on) that over the years dethroned the importance of Oriola in regional importance.
  • The location of Valencia is too big and misrepresented. The south of the Valencia location could be split to represent the important agricultural region around the Albufera. This was the first region to plant rice in the peninsula when the andalusians were there, and later was replicated in the Ebro Delta (Tortosa) and Seville (in the XX century). (Right now I don't have much time to show good sources, but this in Spanish can do: link 1). There's no good name for a location this big (using a city name, but you could use La Ribera) but I think you could use the city of Alzira as a placeholder. This was an important city at the moment (aristocratically) as this was the place where the James I the conqueror abdicated to his son and died.
Provinces:
  • The province of Xativa should have Ayora.
  • There should be a southern province named Oriola/Alacant (as you consider) to represent the old self-governing region of Oriola (it was officially created later, in 1366, but I think It should exist because of its later importance). This one could have the new Alacant location and Oriola. This source can give some clues (the catalan version is more updated than the english one. But either of them should be good) link 2. If, for gameplay reasons, there are too few locations to create a new province, you could also add an Elx (Elche) location to further divide the region (important agricultural city).
Culture:
There's a lot that should be revisited for historical accuracy. I'm no that expert, but I know that the most recent study was made by Vicent Baydal, a historicist and chronicler of Valencia years ago. In this article, you have the map that was presented by his studies: link 3. Notable changes be: Morella should have catalans, Oriola (also Alacant) should have catalans in that period (Oriola changed to spanish after the plague I think, but don't know when exactly, but around the start date... And I don't know the pop distribution, but there should be a lot of andalusians as their expulsion in later centuries was a big deal for the kingdom (if I recall correctly the kingdom lost a third of its pops)

Sorry for the long speech, I hope some of these suggestions can be taken into consideration!
 

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Braga was, and is, the City of the Archbishops
Religiously more important yes
, it was the ancient Roman city of Bracara Augusta
irrelevant, this is 1337
, one of the 3 Roman capitals in Hispania.
again, irrevelant
It was one of the earliest centers of Christianity in Western Europe and the most important religious center in the Kingdom for centuries.
again, religiously more important
Porto was a big city, yes, but it only became the second city of Portugal with the big boom that started in the 16th and especially 17th centuries with the English trade.
what is this "second city of Portugal" definition? You forget Coimbra maybe? What makes Braga important other than religion?
 
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As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years
Sorry since i haven't played any of the past EU games but is it possible to also "converge" markets? Like if i unify all of Germany can i have one big German market?Or if i unify Italy can i unite the venetian,genoese and neapolitan markets?
 
I know but this seems still too much. Europe has 80m population in that time but only iberia has tens of millions in that picture as i can see

Wiki claims 6M in iberia, but sources we have has it at around the 9M we have in the game.
 
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