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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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it must be stressed that Valencia was the biggest market for Aragon instead of Barcelona. You got it right on a different bookmark on EUIV, and the 14th Century was of even bigger importance for this market.
We already answered this some weeks ago:
My CD Team says that their research shows that those numbers are more akin to the 15th century, when Barcelona was in relative decadence, and Valencia in its golden age. In 1337, approximate numbers would be Barcelona about 25-35K, Valencia 20-25K, and Palma around 15-20K inhabitants; for that and other reasons, Barcelona was still the main trading center of the Crown of Aragon. We have a Castilian, a Catalan, an Aragonese, and a Basque on the team, so they have great fun discussing the historical setup for the Iberian Peninsula, and are also glad to receive feedback about it.
 
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Hello! As a Portuguese I'd like to provide some suggestions regarding province borders and names:

1. First of all, I see that the Estremadura province extends south deep into parts that are traditionally considered part of the Alentejo province. There have been several changes done throughout history to this borders but the most widely used one (and the one that generally people have identified with throghout history) was that Alentejo would have its northern borders delimited by the Tagus river, with the setúbal peninsula being the only exception.

2. The Castelo Branco county should be renamed Covilhã, it is true that Castelo Branco became more prominent in modern times (specially after 18th century) but for most of the time, including the start date, it was Covilhã that was the center of that region, this can be attested in the Foral do Concelho da Covilhã, done by king D. Sancho I in 1186, where the concelho da Covilhã included all lands until the Tagus river (Castelo Branco included).

3. I noticed Olivença has been added to Portugal and much attention and detail was given to Germany's counties, I then leave as a suggestion that the principality of Couto Mixto be considered as an addition to the game, an historical sovereign state in between nowaday's Portugal and Spain throghout much of the game's period.

Keep up the great work!
 
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won't this make Castile into a Big Yellow Blob, covering half of Europe by the 15th century? or is some system that ensures that decentralized countries aren't horribly inefficient when compared to centralized ones?
Castile will have its own set of challenges...
 
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You have Galicia really bad/poorly represented:

1) Territory (López Carreira, A. (2005). O reino medieval de Galicia.)
1.1) Why are you following the borders of a 20th century administrative divission (Comunidad Autónoma ~1980's)?
1.2) Galician borders until the 17th century (with an exception for the 16th century) included: Bierzo, Cabreira, Povoa/Pobra de Seabra (Puebla de Sanabria in Spanish), Eo-Navia (as part of Mondoñedo). Ponferrada was considered the "door of Galicia".
1.3) I took that image so you have a visual idea about the landmarks:
galicia 1367.png

1.5) Cabreira, Seabra and Bierzo were under the house(s) of Lemos (1st Castros and 2nd Castros who had their center in Monforte de Lemos).


2) Culture (Dubert Garcia, F. (2004). Variedades xeolingüísticas e cultivo da lingua, crítica dunha hipótese sobre as orixes da fragmentación diatópica do galego.; Castro Moutinho, L. et ali. (2018). Estudos em variação linguística nas línguas românicas.; Luís Regueira, X. (2016). Variación lingüística, dialectoloxía e lingüística histórica: algúns problemas do cambio lingüístico en galego e en portugués.; about identity: González Lopo, D. (2003). Migraciones históricas de los gallegos en el espacio Peninsular (siglos XVI y XIX). Barros,C. (2016). A identidade galego-Portuguesa na Idade Media. USC.; Martins Ferreira, J. P. (2011). A Nobreza Galego-Portuguesa da Diocese de Tui (915-1381). Universidade do Porto.; Pazo Justo, C. (2011). A imagem da Galiza e dos galegos em Portugal entre fi ns do século XIX e primeiras décadas do XX: do imagotipo negativo ao imagotipo de afinidade), and a long etc.)
2.1) Aren't we speaking of a starting date in the 1330's? Galician and Portuguese were not different at all. Neither in identity terms (you have plenity of examples of Galicians and Portugueses been untraceable in documentation and working as locals in both places. I will put samples just of aristocrats, Nuno Freire de Andrade, Fernando Ruis de Castro, Inês de Castro, Joham Fernandes de Andeiro, Rodrigo Annes de Araujo, Pedro Álvares de Soutomaior, Joham de Novoa, etc.).
2.2) If u split Galician-Portuguese, you should do the same with Astur-Leonese (Asturian, Leonese, Mirandese), Spanish/Castillian (Castillian, Toletan, Sevillan, etc.), and as well with Catalonian (Catalan, Valencian, Mallorquine, Ibizenco, etc.). Just to be balanced and fair.
2.3) As that gonna make some Spanish go crazy about the language stuff (quite frecuently happens) a little explanation. They were not differences between Galicians and Portugueses. There were not sharp-cut, stright lines spaces neither correspondences between what it was Galicia and what it was Portugal. There were several regional varieties that didn't follow any border (today you can still seeing its remains in the language: some phoneme use distribution, preferences of word use or grammatical preferences). F.e. Limian Galician we could say it was the same cultural variety as the one of Chaves, Ponte da Lima, etc. The one of Vigo and Tuy was as the one of Viana do Castelo and Braga for sure. Obviously the one of Coímbra and Lisbon will not be the same thing as the one in Mondoñedo (but in the same order of magnitude the Murcian "culture" would have "nothing" to do with that of Cantabria (despite being both Castillians).
2.4) Contact. Culture is built through contact. Galicia have hard passing mountains to the East (to Leon). While sea traveling was easy and cheap. From Coruña to Lisbon in the Middle and Modern Age it would take 2 or 3 days on boat (and there are tons of documents of this boats between Galician and Portuguese ports), while from Coruña to Burgos (land, and less distance) would take over a month.
2.5) So please do not split randomly Galician-Portuguese (and in a stupid way being honest as in CK3 where they were splitted before there was even a single document written in that language).

PS.: just in case anyone is bored enough and want to consult "how different" Portuguese and Galician language (and culture by extension) was, it has the following resources:
Corpus Xelmirez (https://ilg.usc.gal/xelmirez/)
Galaeciae Monumenta Historica (https://gmh.consellodacultura.gal/)
...Note, there are documents in Latin, French, English, Spanish, aside of those in Galician-Portuguese.


3) Population (Ladero Quesada, M. A. (2014). Población de las ciudades en la Baja Edad Media, Castilla, Aragón y Navarra. Real Academia de la Historia. p. 137.; Eiras Roel, A. (-). Una primera aproximación a la estructura demográfica urbana de Galicia en el Censo de 1787; Fernández Sordo, A. S. (2010). Historia urbana en la Galicia medieval, balance y perspectivas.)
3.1) As in all the previous games, you display Galicia as an undeveloped poor place, uninhabited. You even placed more inhabitants in the middle of the Meseta (drylands). It was not. It was pretty rich in fact.
3.2) Galicia was one of the most populated areas of the Iberian Peninsula during Middle Ages and Modern Era (7% of all the Crown of Castille in the 16th century).
3.3) About the development, we have the 2nd most sacred catholic place, we had an economy around it that granted a steady population growing. Of course Compostela was not London, Paris or Barcelona, but it was pretty much developed.

4) Economics (Ferreira Priegue, E. (1998). Galicia en el comercio marítimo medieval.)
4.1) Again, generic poor products, food and little valuable stuff.
4.2) Galicia was one of the main wine producers in the peninsula (shiped to England and Flandes).
4.3) Other products were, tin, iron and lead, salt, shipbuilding, fishing and seals, wood,

galicia economia producto.JPG

Please be aware,
THE NAMES ON THIS MAP (Elisa Priego) ARE "TRANSLATED" TO SPANISH, THEY ARE NOT THEIR LOCAL NAMES.
The map study the medieval economy in the 20th century administrative territory of Galicia (so not the Medieval Galician borders).
The image comes from Elisa Priego book, avaliable online for free.


5) Couto Misto
5.1) You have done a wonderful and crazy work over Germany and Central Europe. Couldn't you include a Micro-State for the Couto Misto in the same fashion?

6) History
6.1) I guess through the poor state of research over Galicia (sorry to use that expression, but it is what it is), I imagine that it will be during the play-through a paceful easy place (as is usual in the other titles). It is, anyways, a wrong perception (here a little timeline of problems).
6.2) 1295~1306 Joham I Interregnum. Galician towns and nobles declare king of Galicia (and León in Zamora) D. Joham I ("Juan" I). Despite that seccession being solved in León pretty quick, it was not in Galicia, which remain rebel for around 10 years.
6.3) Portuguese-Castillian War of 1336-39. Galicia was a powerhouse of Portugese supporters.
6.4) 1351-69, 1st Castillian Civil War. Galicia was almost semi-independent ("desnaturalized") under the Castro Family that was a supporter of Pedro I.
6.5) 1369-82, Fernandine Wars. Galician towns and nobles proclaim Fernando I of Portugal as the Galician King.
6.6) 1383-85, Portuguese Interregnum. During this period Galicia was poorly or fully not controlled by Castille. Was as well a center of pro-Portuguese towns and lords. Some of the Towns proclaimed their fidelity to Portugal, others to Castille and others just remain silent. That's why some coastal towns were raided both by Portugueses and Castillians (Galician Campaign 1384).
6.7) 1386-87, Jhon of Gaunt. Galician towns proclaim Jhon of Gaunt and his wife (Constança) as king and queen. The black death force them to sign a treaty with the Castillians.
6.8) After that the kings of Castille seem to had little if no control of Galicia as being at war with the Hansa, Galician towns still trading with them. Even more Juan II of Castille had to sank Hanseatic-Galician convoys as he probably had no control of the port town of A Coruña (Apuntes para la Historia Sajona, Boletín de la Real Academia de la Historia, p. 31).
6.9) 1420. That economic toll probably lead to the burguers and paseant uprising of the "Primeira Irmandade/Irmandade Fusquenlla".

Last one, terrain:

jeres.JPG


The "plateau" is in Xinzo da Limia, not in the Baixa Limia. Baixa Limia, Tras-os-Montes, etc., are mountains of the Gerês/Xerés-Laboreiro.
There are a few minor problems, but well, minor.

PS.:
As it is a long post, with a long search and academic articles, I'd appreciate if the disagreement is explicit regarding some of the corrections, instead of disregarding the full post for an specific part.
 
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You absolutely need to replace 3 names, replace Torres Vedras with Sintra, much bigger and much more important place; replace Esgueira with Aveiro, much bigger and more important;...

I'd argue for splitting Sintra off Torres Vedras instead.

As for Aveiro, they did their research as it only really gained relevance after the game's timeline.
 
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Hope the devs see this, but could we please get the option to have the political map mode show the terrain of the land when you zoom in the way it does in Imperator Rome. Having this as a game option that you can enable or keep disabled, would satisfy many people. Please make is so!
 
just noticed there are spices being produced in Andalucia. out of curiosity, could you elaborate?
View attachment 1134480
So:
That was our conclusion. We had lots of different spices earlier, but at the end of the day it was "pop gets enough spices to be happy", so why add a few % extra performance cost for that?
Originally there was Saffron here, IIRC, which was converted into Spices. We have to test a bit more if this works, or if we need to make Spices a bit more scarce in Europe.
 
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won't this make Castile into a Big Yellow Blob, covering half of Europe by the 15th century? or is some system that ensures that decentralized countries aren't horribly inefficient when compared to centralized ones?
If everything goes in a certain way, I am sure that they can either fall to a muslim counter-reconquista or be PU'ed by other nation before, like Portugal ;D
 
Shouldent there be some rice province so far am aware there was some cultivation of rice and other fruits in southern and western spain. But maybe someone who has a bit better knowlege on the details could suggest some areas for it.
 
Some support on replacing the good of some locations in New Catalunya and Western Old Catalunya into wheat instead of what they have now (medicaments, fur, etc.).

From l'enciclopedia catalana (here):

Screen Shot 2024-05-17 at 17.35.36.png


Segarra is what is called Cervera in the map and Urgell would be Balaguer/Solsona.

A second suggestion is to break the location of Lleida into Lleida (which is an urban area very flat and irrigated) and Garrigues or La Granadella, which is a very dry rural wheat-producing area amidst very rough terrain. Back then, La Granadella was a relatively important barony (here):
Screen Shot 2024-05-17 at 17.41.04.png


Edit: La Granadella had ~153 households and Flix had ~112 in 1357 (here). So another consideration would be to replace Flix for Granadella, although later in the centuries, Flix would be more important eventually.
 
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It has been confirmed that Açores have 3 locations. Based on this, I'd say 4 or 5 in Canaries, and 1 in Madeira, but I'd really like to see it too.

We all want it hehehe
Looking back at TT#2, if you zoom in and squint your eyes the Canaries also look like 3 locations, while Macaronesia looks like looks like 4-5 locations + 1 location for the Açores.
 
I’m really curious what uses mercury will have as a resource for the time period of this game. I only know about it being used for thermometers and other modern science things. Were there enough historical uses of it for it to have its own spot as a raw resource?
 
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no. elephant units requires units locally produced to be recruited.
Booo booo, bad mistake ...
... famously Carthaginian animal-trader Hannibal Barca cornered the Italian market after moving the goods around half the Mediterranian Sea - and that was 218 BC. o_O

Ok ok, I might have overstated my case a bit ... :rolleyes:
 
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