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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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Am I the only one who that feels there are too many flatlands in comparison to hills?

Maybe the concept of hills should be less restrictive, allowing for a wider range of terrains.
I'd love for 'highlands' to make a reappearance, as I feel 'plateau' will not be used that often as a terrain type.

In any case, perhaps Slope Length and Steepness could provide assistance in classifying it a bit more objectively?

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I notice that French subjects are blue but not the same shade as France (and not all the same shade as each other) is there a dynamic system of colored subjects or are these nations simply made a shade of blue on the game start regardless of their subject status?
 
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Also, I spotted coal on the map.
 
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Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.
“Cultural unification"?

Will game have cultural integration and separation mechanism similar to CK3?
 
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Looking at the population map of France, a question arose about the Black Death. Will it work similarly to the EU4 institutions where it originates in a province, in this case location? And if this is the case, will its place of appearance be fixed? Or will it be fixed in certain areas? I'm asking this to see if it will be historically correct as to which places it affected the most or if it will be something more RNG (which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in my opinion). It will definitely be a game changer if pops represents the might of a country.
We will talk more in detail about the Black Death in the future.
 
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Just to be clear, can France acquire the channel islands from England? It looks like they're English to start, but are part of the Cherbourg province?

Please please please let France be able to take the channel islands from perfidious Albion.
 
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Often, the name for a province is just main city + -ais. So Lyon would be Lyonnais, Bourbon would be Bourbonnais, Orléans would be Orléanais, and so on. There are many exceptions, however, such as Tours becoming Touraine, and the fact that some of the historical provinces, such as Brittany and Dauphiné, where previously independent states that were integrated later into France, and so they are much bigger than what a Project Caesar province seems to be. Brittany had its 9 "pays" which would be too small for provinces, grouped into "High" and "Low" Brittany, which would be too big, but I guess you could rename Nantes to Pays Nantais, Rennes to Pays Rennais, and Vannes to Vannetais. Dauphiné has a similar story, but again I guess a good compromise would be to name Vienne Viennois and Grenoble Grésivaudan, although again these were inly two pays out of nine. Or perhaps Grenoble could be "Haut Dauphiné" and Vienne "Bas Dophiné", I guess that may work better. Since I am not an expert, I don't know much about what other French provinces were called.
 
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For the naming convention of provinces, you could start by using the map of the general government of France accessible on this wiki page : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_France#cite_note-4 ; it's not perfectly sourced but it might be a good start. I think you should first rename the provinces that kind of match the map of the general government and once it's done you can ask once more for feedback for the smaller provinces which need more specific researches
 
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You really dislike tag specific mechanism. Normally I would respectfully disagree, but I got to give you respect for your determination!
Thanks, I guess.

If there is a "unique" mechanic, I think we ought to think about ways to make it universal, as such a move would add to the game experience, and reflect more fully the amount of choice a ruler of the time would have had.

I'm not saying everyone should start with apanages, but everyone should have the possibility to get them. Most probably won't.
 
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I only know something about the Ardèche department, here represented by Viviers:
- Viviers is indeed the best city to use for the location.
- The province could be called the "Vivarais"
- I assume that the Bishopric of Viviers will not be a possible tag in the game (they got attached to France in 1308). They were also part of the roman empire before that: https://www.sauverviviers.fr/menu-français/histoire-de-viviers/ (the french wiki page also has some info)
- Under no circumstances is the Vivarais flatland. Only a small portion in the south-east and along the Rhône river could be considered "flat". Most of the Vivarais is still part of the Massif Central.
 
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Love it. But using modern French location names in Alsace/ Lorraine is very wierd. Should still be German or at least local dialect of German. The French names came to relevance waaay later.
 
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I think it would be more accurate that horses were produced in the location of Argentan instead of Falaise.
The location of Caen could be producing stone, as the Caen stone were used since 1066 in lots of building in Normandy and England. But wheat is not a bad one for this location.
 
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Hey Pavia.

Can't wait for Poland as I'm Polish. I've one question. Will this game have terrain map similiar to EU4, or in games like TW: Rome II? Will this map be all flat?
The 3D map will be like [REDACTED].
 
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