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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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Will it be easier for regional powers like Brittany, Scotland or Granada to survive?

One thing that Eu4 struggled with was regional powers getting gobbled up by larger neighbours very early on.
 
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Do you accept suggestions for localized names for locations and provinces? I've compiled a list of Dutch names for French and German places in the game. Seeing other place names is always one of my favourite aspects of conquest.
 
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I really like that paradox finally makes a distinction between Gallo and Breton, with the former hopefully part of a french culture group and the latter part of a celtic one. I however have several questions concerning Brittany in general here:
- Why is the colour on the map a shade of blue rather than white/grey/black? Brittany was not a vassal of France under this time period, so it does not make sense for it to be in the same colour scheme as France's.
- Are the location/province/area/region names localised depending on primary culture? As the government at the time was already very french-influenced, it makes sense that the names are in french, but should we decide to make "breton" rather than "gallo" our primary culture (which I assume is what is going on here, from historic data, based on my supposition made in the first line), would the names return to their original form? (ie. Would "Nantes" change to "Naoned", "Vannes" to "Gwened", etc.) If you are unsure about the location names in breton, I am happy to provide a list.
- More generally, would our country name change from "Brittany" to "Breizh" should we make that cultural transition?
- Making all of the western counties "Wood" is somewhat inaccurate (although I am not aware of all terrain types, so maybe this is a conscious choice). There should be some kind of "Heath" terrain for certain, more barren parts of north-west Brittany.
Thanks for taking feedback into consideration, and for the beautiful maps!
1. Tricky question. Britanny was clearly more aligned with France after the marriage of Alix de Thouars to Pièrre de Dreux, in 1213. That resulted in the elevation to the peerage of France in 1297. Shall we consider it a fully independent country, or one that is considered, by that condition, submitted to the King of France? Tricky. We decided upon the option of considering it a vassal, but we're open to feedback on the matter.
2. There will be game rules allowing locations to change its name to different languages, yes.
3. That is not a possibility currently.
4. We'll take that into consideration (probably making those 'sparse' instead of 'woods'). Thanks!
 
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Do you accept suggestions for localized names for locations and provinces? I've compiled a list of Dutch names for French and German places in the game. Seeing other place names is always one of my favourite aspects of conquest.
Yes please! Maybe in another thread so we can refer to it easily
 
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There are a few non-Castilian pops in southern Iberia; but 1337 is too soon to consider an 'Andalusian' identity (as a regional culture born from Castilian, not to be confused with the 'Andalusi' identity, which we consider the Muslim Iberian culture of al-Andalus). On the contrary, French regional identities were more diverse by that age, and the' uniformization' process started a century ago, with the expansion of royal powers and crown lands started by Philippe II Augustus.
Is there a planned DD that will give details on this centralisation process of cultures? The populations from the "culture groups" you mentioned on another message becoming a single culture as this "uniformization" you mentioned here.
 
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I would also question the presence of a significant amount of French people in south Alsace at this time. I read a book from Bernhard Vogler about the History of Alsace, and I am pretty sure that he mentioned that there were nearly no French-speaking populations in Alsace prior to the annexation.
 
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Love all the work on this super-secret and definitely not EUV..... I just wanted to know if there was a reason behind the topographical map mode having flatlands written all over it compared to how the climate map mode is done with just one large Oceanic? Also if someone were to be planning to take let's say a month of work when PC releases should that person be saving their leave for 25 or 26? Hypothetically of course
 
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Once again, great work. Happy to see that cathars are not forgotten.
I was wondering if it's possible that Avignon can produce silk or dyes ? There was a really big manufacturing activity back then.
 
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I had wondered if english possessions in France would be in a PU with england, while also being a subject of France. Are these things mutually exclusive? How come you decided to go with this setup?
I don't think that we will be able to solve this matter, considering that France and England could not do so back in 1337...

Now seriously, we've considered the English possessions in France to be under England, as that's the closest approach to how they were governed daily.
 
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Beautiful map as always, I think France might be my first game whenever the game is out.

Just a slight feedback on the raw goods map I see that Bretagne and Normandy have mostly livestock. It looks a bit too much like contemporary raw goods. Normandy (a bit) and especially Bretagne were known for their production of linen and hemp, so fiber crops goods, and the vegetal clothes that were produced with these. I think, at least in Bretagne and maybe in part in Normandy, fiber crops should be the majority of the raw goods. Especially certain parts of Bretagne like Leon

Sadly the only source I have is in French and I don't think it got translated but it's got some interesting maps :
TANGUY J., Quand la toile va. L'industrie toilière bretonne du 16e au 17e siècle, Apogée, 1994.
 
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My suggestion for vegetation:
Grs6scR.png

I filled it out based on this vegetation map I prepared.

Farmlands are based on:
Woods and forest locations are based on modern forest cover and research into what these forests looked like in the past. For example, Angouleme now has just a few small protected forests but it used to be one big woodland and parts of it were cleared over time.
The Landes have been mentioned, but I'm not sure if sparse is correct for it? Don't horse archers get a bonus on sparse vegetation? The Landes were closer to marshland than steppes, I think.

France at the time only had 20% forest cover by the way (30% today), and it struggled with shortages of wood.
On the other hand, it has the best farmland in Europe other than Ukraine (or rather, the largest amount of good farmland), which is how it could sustain such a large population throughout the game's timeframe.
 
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"Romand" might be a more period-accurate term for "Arpitan" (at least in Switzerland), which iirc is a 1980s neologism. Doesn't really matter though since communicating info is more important for the UI than in-period accurate language necessarily.

I wonder if we'll get a glimpse of the specific groupings. Is "French" a single regional culture group? Are Langues d'Oïl and Langues d'Oc separate? Is there rather a "Gallic Romance" group (Langues d'Oïl+Langues d'Oc+Catalan+Cisalpine)? All could work but it depends on how culture groups themselves work.
 
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can i promote other cultures than just your primary culture lets say im playing France and my primary culture is Francien but i want to promote Gallo to some Breton regions instead of Francien would that be possible?
 
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There are a few non-Castilian pops in southern Iberia; but 1337 is too soon to consider an 'Andalusian' identity (as a regional culture born from Castilian, not to be confused with the 'Andalusi' identity, which we consider the Muslim Iberian culture of al-Andalus). On the contrary, French regional identities were more diverse by that age, and the' uniformization' process started a century ago, with the expansion of royal powers and crown lands started by Philippe II Augustus.
Is it possible for us to have an event which separates Castilian and Andalusian cultures later into the game?

Also maybe the same event could split Catalan and Valencians?
 
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