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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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I know this is the France Tinto Maps, but given the great diversity of cultures in France, why was Castilian culture so prevalent in the Iberian Tinto Maps? Surely are non-Castilian, non-Muslim cultures in southern Iberia at this time?
There are a few non-Castilian pops in southern Iberia; but 1337 is too soon to consider an 'Andalusian' identity (as a regional culture born from Castilian, not to be confused with the 'Andalusi' identity, which we consider the Muslim Iberian culture of al-Andalus). On the contrary, French regional identities were more diverse by that age, and the' uniformization' process started a century ago, with the expansion of royal powers and crown lands started by Philippe II Augustus.
 
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Is Brittany being depicted as a French vassal here? I'm a little worried that whilst legally accurate, it will just cause France to annex it before 1400 which seems historically unlikely.
There might happen events in Britanny that could make that potentially more difficult...
 
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I really like that paradox finally makes a distinction between Gallo and Breton, with the former hopefully part of a french culture group and the latter part of a celtic one. I however have several questions concerning Brittany in general here:
- Why is the colour on the map a shade of blue rather than white/grey/black? Brittany was not a vassal of France under this time period, so it does not make sense for it to be in the same colour scheme as France's.
- Are the location/province/area/region names localised depending on primary culture? As the government at the time was already very french-influenced, it makes sense that the names are in french, but should we decide to make "breton" rather than "gallo" our primary culture (which I assume is what is going on here, from historic data, based on my supposition made in the first line), would the names return to their original form? (ie. Would "Nantes" change to "Naoned", "Vannes" to "Gwened", etc.) If you are unsure about the location names in breton, I am happy to provide a list.
- More generally, would our country name change from "Brittany" to "Breizh" should we make that cultural transition?
- Making all of the western counties "Wood" is somewhat inaccurate (although I am not aware of all terrain types, so maybe this is a conscious choice). There should be some kind of "Heath" terrain for certain, more barren parts of north-west Brittany.
Thanks for taking feedback into consideration, and for the beautiful maps!
 
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I had wondered if english possessions in France would be in a PU with england, while also being a subject of France. Are these things mutually exclusive? How come you decided to go with this setup?
 
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Johan said rivers are not navigable due to it being unreasonable to have ships of the line fight on rivers. However the presence of the Elbe to Hamburg (11.4m draft) and the Guadalquivir to Seville (7m draft) on the map suggests that some river ports are considered too important. I would like to argue that some rivers could accommodate large ships regardless, like the Mississippi saw naval action with oceangoing ships as far upriver as Vicksburg and the depth of the river is 13.7m to Baton Rouge. (Note that the HMS Victory has a draft of ~8.7m, meaning it can't sail to Seville).

River Loire has a draft of ~6m to Nantes. I think simply relying on the port at Saint-Nazaire (location Guerande) is insufficient due to the population difference given at start (37015 in Guerande and 95925 in Nantes).

Please consider giving Nantes a port, whether that be by extending the coastal sea zone or adding a short river is immaterial.
We have that on our radar, although I cannot promise anything yet.
 
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Hey so will there be a game rule to disable vassals taking on their overlords' colors
i really don't like that bit
 
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How are the vassal colors determined? Because i really like the idea that the more integrated they are, the darker they get and closer to your own color. The less intergrated, the lighter the color.

Also, if as some have suggested, diplomatic relations are scaled to size and necessary maintenance to sustain the relationship, it wouldn't matter how small a vassal is (say, the channel islands) bc it would barely take any dip space, no?
Yeah, but with a small insignificant vassal like the channel islands it would be at the expense of performance. Something i imgaine the game already struggles to balance
 
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Will there then be events/specific actions the player can do for the unification of the cultures? And if so, would that be something specific to French cultures or something which can be used for any two cultures. Also brings up another question, are there culture groups (which would be able to be unified)?

Thanks!
 
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It's interesting how hard you're leaning on the language-as-culture aspect, to the point of differentiating a "gallo" culture from "breton", which to my mind has never been anything else than a name for a romance language spoken in Brittany. Are there "culture groups" as we know them and will in that case Breton be grouped with Welsh while Gallo is in the broader French group, or will they be grouped together?
There are culture groups in a certain way, we'll talk about that in a future Tinto Talks this summer.
 
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We're given a supper acurate economic representation and apparently even the chance to play with unlanded banking families... but neither Monaco or the Channel Islands are playable nations to go and create a true medieval tax haven. Oh well, I guess we still have Andorra.

@Pavía, give us Monaco.
 
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I had wondered if english possessions in France would be in a PU with england, while also being a subject of France. Are these things mutually exclusive? How come you decided to go with this setup?
Pretty sure that Johan said that vassals can be PUs of other countries. He was specifically talking about Prussia-Brandenburg there, so I would assume it is true of other nations.
 
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For the sake of readibility, let's simplify this to 'Boulogne'.
Saint-Pol would also be Saint-Pol-sur-Ternoise otherwise.

I'm also pretty sure they didn't bother with the 'sur-mer' part in that time period, the counts were simply called 'de Boulogne', too.


1716556905861.png
 
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Will there be incentives to give out new appanages to your sons (or that of a France AI) in the early game, slowing down centralization? Perhaps it's the easiest way to make certain estates happy? After all, the game begins before some of the most important branches had been established like the House of Valois-Burgundy
It's one of the tools that can be used to manage a big country (like France).
 
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Could we get a market in Dijon to stop Barcelona and Genoa Markets crossing over Alps, and also to reduce paris market blob slightly. Or another important city to become market center near Rhine.
 
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While it makes sense to portray France with feudal vassals, the presence of Normandy as a separate tag makes little sense, by 1337, future Jean II of France was the duke. Wonder what's the reasoning behind it?
 
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