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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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As for the province names, I'd definitely go for the "adjectival" form, using the names of historic provinces (or regions of provinces) when possibly.

As follows:

Paris - Île-de-France or Pays-de-France
Amiens - Picardy (or Amiénois)
Arras - Artois
Soissons - Soissonais
Guise - Probably fine but I'd consider Thierache
Meaux - Brie
Reims - Rémois
Chalons-en-Champagne - Champagne Propre
Troyes - Troiesin
Chaumont - Bassigny
Dijon - Dijonnais/Burgundy
Nevers - Nivernais
Chalons-sur-Saone - Chalonnais
Lyon - Lyonnais
Vienne - Viennois/Bas-Dauphiné
Grenoble - Grésivaudan/Haut-Dauphiné
Nice - Way too big, I'd cut it down to just the historic county.
Aix-en-Provence - Provence
Avignon - Venaissin
Viviers - Vivarais
Nimes - Nîmois/Bas-Languedoc
Narbonne - Narbonnais
Toulouse - Haut-Languedoc
Carcassonne - Carcassonnais
Muret - Comminges
Pau - Béarn
Bayonne - Tricky! Perhaps Upper Navarre or Labourd.
Auch - Armagnac
Mont-de-Marsan - Marsan
Dax - tricky... Dacquois, Buch, Albret could all work but maybe just Landes.
Bordeaux - Bordelais
Limoges - Limousin

Aubusson - La Marche
Saintes - Saintonge (would include Angouleme here too!)
Poitiers - Haut-Poitou
Thouars - Bas-Poitou
Angers - Anjou
Tours - Touraine
Orléans - Orléanais
 
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I admittedly know nothing about 1337 France, but what is the logic for this weird horizontal 4 province state being a thing? Why not absorb it into the neighboring ones?

View attachment 1138143
This is the traditional province of Aquitània, or simply Guiana (fr. Guyenne). It's a separate area from both Gascony, Languedoc, Limousin and Auvergne, not to mention Poitou and the more northern landscapes of France. It might look a little strange, but it's quite a natural landscape, being the Gironde river valley, basically :)
 
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Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
To give my two cents on the matter: I think that railroading in the first century of the game is where it is most acceptable, to allow for major, balance-shifting players on the map to arise. The existence of Burgundy is absolutely fundamental in the way that so many European affairs were shaped, most especially in the low countries. I feel like the balance of power in western europe with absolutely no Burgundian rise would be so vastly different.

With that, I believe that the rise of Burgundy is important enough to be railroaded (at least in its early years), alongside other acceptable railroads such as the rise of the Serbian empire at the expense of the Romans, the rise of Timur the Great, the fall of the Yuan empire, and so forth.

This isn't to say that the whole game should have railroaded emergences and declines, but rather that the early game is where such railroading is best used, so that the dynamics of the 14th-19th centuries can be best emulated whilst still keeping the freedom of the sandbox.
 
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Beautiful map as always, I think France might be my first game whenever the game is out.

Just a slight feedback on the raw goods map I see that Bretagne and Normandy have mostly livestock. It looks a bit too much like contemporary raw goods. Normandy (a bit) and especially Bretagne were known for their production of linen and hemp, so fiber crops goods, and the vegetal clothes that were produced with these. I think, at least in Bretagne and maybe in part in Normandy, fiber crops should be the majority of the raw goods. Especially certain parts of Bretagne like Leon

Sadly the only source I have is in French and I don't think it got translated but it's got some interesting maps :
TANGUY J., Quand la toile va. L'industrie toilière bretonne du 16e au 17e siècle, Apogée, 1994.
I've also found this article that gives more details on the production, in french but with english abstract and maps :


Figure 1 : L’exportation des toiles de la France de l’Ouest
 
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I notice that the Strait of Dover is a Narrow, while the rest of the Channel is Costal Ocean. What is the effective difference between these two types of locations and what practical difference will it have in the game?
 
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Thinking about

Is Wales an appanage of England under the Black Prince? Or are appanages French exclusive?

If it were different, how would the game engine handle it? Basically, are vassals called into their overlord's wars automatically and does that mean that a vassal can be called into a war against their PU partner?
The Black prince is 6 years old at game start, I don't think he's ruling Wales t that age, and he would only be given his first command in 1347 during the Crécy campaign when he was 16, but even then it was actually William de Bohun who was in charge of the army. So I think he's a bit young for an appanage all things considered.
 
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Are there provisions to cover how many Norman vassals would pay homage to Edward III in the next couple of years and allow England to take back Normandy?
 
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I understand this is about France, but was Brighton relevant enough in 1337 to receive the location name rather than Shoreham, which was the more relevant port, or one of the two Norman divisions, Pevensey or Lewes?
 
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I think the Black Death could play a vital role in this, as a lot of heirs died in that period, which eventually led to Phillip the Good (Bur) marrying the sole heir of Flanders: Margaret III of Flanders.

Maybe a watershed condition could be designed, where if Flanders has no male heir in the 14th century, an 'Iberian Wedding'-like event could occur, allowing for the Burgundian path to take hold? Perhaps this could then unlock the rest of Burgundy's focus/mission tree venturing forth in gradually acquiring the Low Countries, as it was something they did very purposefully.
The black death had little to do with burgundy acquiring flanders: Louis I (ruler at 1337) only had 1 lawful child, louis II, who again only had 1 lawful child, margareta of flanders, who married philip the bold of burgundy. Although it did kill odo iv, which led to philip gaining burgundy in the first place...

The issue with representing burgundy is that, like pavia said, philip the bold wasnt even born at game start. The duchy of odo was not the burgundy of totally unrelated paradox game eu4 which we know and love.

I guess it might be an idea to have philip 'spawn' (similar to how eu4 spawns ismail or suleyman or henry tudor), when the old dynasty of burgundy dies out without an heir, or if france otherwise integrates burgundy. But any events after that feel a bit too railroady for my liking. If eu4 has a mission tree esque mechanic, a lowlands branch for burgundy seems good though.
 
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Very nice maps!
Small details, but I would expand a bit the mediteranean climate area in the south of France.
Starting with Alès and Lodève which are very dry.
Same thing for all the land east and south-east of Orange (from Avignon and maybe Gap, up to Nice and probably even more east).
All these areas clearly exhibit a quite specific mediterranean vegetation, typically with sparce woodland and the absence of real undergrowth.
 
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