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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

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Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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Why did you call Italian Jews "Italkim Jews", "Italkim" means Italians so it's like saying "Italians Jews" which doesn't make a lot of sense (unless I am missing something)
Same applies to most of the other -im cultures. Mizrahim comes from the Arabic word misr for Egypt, and Sephardim comes from the Hebrew word for Spain/Iberia.
 
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Technically Brescia should be somewhat semi-indipendent, it had just relatively recently lost indipendence and consigned itself to the visconti once they had defeated the veronese troops
 
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Okay so first the location of Locarno:
View attachment 1145104
I have drawn in Lago Maggiore and Locarno (overlaid with the same map projection so it's accurate), as you can see, the Locarno location is way off.
I have to admit I can't figure out the name of the location that's in the place of actual Locarno or why it's owned by Como when actual Como is way further East and owned by Milan.
I think it's Bellinzona? Which wouldn't make much sense because the actual city seems to be inside the location of Lugano, but given I can spot ..li.o.. I don't there are many alternative names there
 
Beautiful maps, but I have some suggestions:
1- I think that the island of Elba should be a separate location due to historical reasons such as the fact that Napoleon was "emperor" of the island for a period of time and the fact that this island was an important iron extraction site (that iron was used since Etruscan times and it was the first site of iron extraction in Italy)
2- Shouldn't there be arctic climate also on the Alps and not only on the Pyrenees?
 
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Hey Pavía, thanks for all the maps !

Seeing the ressources one, and considering how much different minerals there are, i wonder if any kind of ressource "natural reserves" currently exist, or has been discussed by the design team. Considering the large timeframe of the game i assume that a lot of new deposits will be discovered and mines opened or closed, resulting in a location's RGO changing so how will it be represented in-game? Would it rather be hard-coded scripted events for all the locations (as it would be easier for you guys) or a more dynamic avialable ressources in a location system? And you could then have certain technologies of improved or deeper mining extend the avialable deposits or discover new ones in certain locations. Just thought that would be an interesting mechanic strategically speaking, as securing a province of iron would not mean endless supply of iron until the end of the game except for certain provinces that would, in the game timeframe, be virtually endless in reserves. I think it has been evoked that the gold mines in the center of France would deplete shortly after the game's start and that the stora kopparberg would recieve a bonus to its RGO.

Sorry if that strayed off topic but was just wondering ! Good luck with the deving
 
How come there is one part of Arborea that is part of the neapolitan market, despite being part of a nation in the genoese market, and fully surrounded by it? Like, what happened there?
View attachment 1145101
As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.
 
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Regarding Venice, there are several options, depending on what you prefer (more historical/geographically accurate or what's better for gameplay), and how easy are certain options to do. Some of my ideas:

You could add lagoon as terrain type, which wouldn't be available to access without ships (just like islands), although it's connected to the bigger landmass.
You could add specific landmark traits/scripted location modifiers or something like that, for certain regions, which, in case of the Venice, wouldn't allow access over the land, or acces to non-friendly units over the land.
And third option is basically the same as the second, it would just be something like a unique building/monument for Venice (it could be called the Venetian lagoon), which could be expanded during the course of the game, which would add bigger defensive (and maybe some other) bonuses.

Other than that, everything looks great (I'll have certain suggestions for Balkans), except 2 things, but I may be wrong:
First, if there's an Italian or historian here, shouldn't the province where Rome is located be called Latium or something like that?
Secondly, why are there so many silk producing locations in 1377, it's doesn't seem right to me?
 
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We need to rework them a bit (when we made the region [actually, I scripted the countries and characters of North Western Italy as my first task when I joined PDX, and it was... painful], we required some code functionalities that were lacking to have proper PUs and subjects in the region); so any feedback about the sphere of influence of Robert of Anjou in North Italy is pretty much welcome.
Great, I will provide some detailed feedback asap! I have books on the history of Cuneo, Alba, Mondovi and other cities waiting for me at home :)

Some quick feedback (something that you maybe know already)

- In 1337 all main centers of the southwest of Piedmont owed political allegiances to Robert of Anjou in some form or another (Cuneo, Mondovi’, Alba, even Asti for some time).
- Cuneo should be given to the Anjou, likely as a one tag under vassalage. It was held by Saluzzo for short periods but either before or after the start date. We can debate over Asti, which may be depicted as an ally or a loose vassal. Alba and Mondovì should be under the Anjou as well.
 
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However, the wastelands (if they are) within Naples’ territory and Corsica are colored in. What is the reason for this?
True... That setting is currently painting them when they're fully surrounded by a country. Probably we should have 3 stances (never colored, colored when a majority of the locations surround it, and colored when fully surrounded); I'll ask for it.
 
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The main problem for San Marino is the size, as it also happens with Monaco. To put it in context, Andorra is almost 8 times the size of San Marino, and 230 times the size of Monaco.
Simple solution for those who must play as San Marino:

give human players ability to start as Urbino and then to release and play as San Marino, giving this location to ULM (Unique Location Minor) San Marino (I believe it should be there somewhere).

Locations.jpg


Bending the rules a bit? Making it bigger than it was in reality? Yeah. But if there are people who are so eager to play ULM San Marino, then who are we to deny them this right? Especially that it'd be no gamebreaking after all for anyone else.

It's not at all relevant to me, because Italy is only interesting to me as a target of Roman conquest, but I always say that people should have as much ways to play their beloved game as they please, so I'd vote for giving them such option even if I would never use it myself.
 
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