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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

g&gs.png

Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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If Rijeka in Croatia is such a small location on the map, I don't see why San Marino shouldn't be. I know it's small, but look at Rijeka! Something equally small could be San Marino :D
And rightly, someone has already written that an island of Venice can be made of a similar size to Rijeka
If I knew locations can be as small as that Rijeka I would have added 20 locations to Poland.
 
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If Rijeka in Croatia is such a small location on the map, I don't see why San Marino shouldn't be. I know it's small, but look at Rijeka! Something equally small could be San Marino :D
And rightly, someone has already written that an island of Venice can be made of a similar size to Rijeka
Rijeka will probably be redrawn, don't take it as a unit of measurement.
 
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Overall I love this map of Italy, but I do hope that certain important locations are added, which I've shown in the (crude) map below:
View attachment 1145088
The first change I think should be made is making Elba its own location, it makes no sense for it not to exist and it's even in CK3. Also, the empire of Elba was a thing for 9 months, so it should be its own location.

The next is making Venice an Island, I know it it will be hard to click, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. The rest of the current Venice location can be renamed to Marghera.

I'd also like to see Monaco be added, in 1337 the Grimaldis ruled roughly the same lands as they do today. But from 1340-50 they would gain the towns of Roquebrune and Menfort. So the perfect location map would see Monaco and Roquebrune-Menfort as separate locations, with an event for Monaco to gain Roquebrune-Menfort. But the more realistic solution would be to have it as one location on game start, as shown in my map. Also at game start Monaco should be a vassal of Genoa.

My final change is to make the Eolie islands their own location at game start, as they were owned by Naples and not Sicilly. However a Frenxh fleet would occupy the island in 1337, so an event should be added for that. Sadly, I couldn't find anymore information about the Frenxh invasion.
Monaco is too small to be added. The Grimaldi will be portrayed in a different way, though. Also, don't expect the Eolie Islands to be a location.
 
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Great map, great project. A few suggestions/questions:

1 - venice plus murano, Burano, minor islands and lido are approximately 20 km², not much but definitely not too small. No reason for not depicting them as separate location tbh

2 - San Marino is around 40 km², small indeed but again doable. Possibly different because islands can be enlarged without damaging the nearby locations.

3 - isola d'elba should definitely be separated, especially because metal were mostly mixed there rather than in the mainland.

4 - I cannot read the location north of Padova, is it castelfranco?

5 - the veneto plains were quite split from the rest of the po valley because of the berici and euganei hills and the marshes of the bassa padana/rovigo area. I would put hills terrain for lonigo, este and/or monselice to represent that

6 - South of Verona I read LegnaNo, which is not correct. That is LegnaGo, famous fortress in the middle of the veneto wildlands of bassa where Antonio salieri was born. Not to be confused with LegnaRo, a small village south of padova, or with the very famous LegnaNo next to Milano

Edit: apparently San Marino is actually more than 60 km². Guersney is of a similar size. I will not elaborate further
 
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Hey first of all great Tinto Talk!
I've noticed that the most "known" provinces/locations are not in italian but in english and I kind of get why, but for an italian speaker it's strange seeing some names in italian and some in english, I'm happy to help translating them to the appropriate italian name:

Locations:
Genoa -> Genova
Turin -> Torino
Milan -> Milano
Venice -> Venezia
Florence -> Firenze
Rome -> Roma
Naples -> Napoli
Siracuse -> Siracusa

Provinces:
Punente -> Ponente (or "Riviera di Ponente", in which case also Levante -> "Riviera di Levante")
Mondovi -> Mondovì
Milan -> Milano
Belluno and Cador -> Belluno e Cadore
Venice -> Venezia
Grossetto -> Grosseto

Here are also some italian names for venitian provinces/locations in Istria/Dalmatia (is it technically part of the italian Tinto Talk? :rolleyes:):
Locations:
Rovinj -> Rovigno
Zadar -> Zara

Provinces:
Dalmatia -> Dalmazia

One other thing, if I'm not mistaken Mantua was under Luigi I di Gonzaga in 1337, he was an imperial vicar and definitely in the Ghibellines faction.
 
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Maybe you can design a mapmode that compares/merges 2 international organisations? Can be usefull for displaying competing international organisations, or for complementary ones.
 
Provinces:
Punente -> Ponente (or "Riviera di Ponente", in which case also Levante -> "Riviera di Levante")
Mondovi -> Mondovì
Milan -> Milano
Belluno and Cador -> Belluno e Cadore
Venice -> Venezia
Grossetto -> Grosseto
Since Grosseto's province spans almost all of Maremma, it should be called Maremma
 
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San Marino; the New Ulm?
 
Okay so first the location of Locarno:
View attachment 1145104
I have drawn in Lago Maggiore and Locarno (overlaid with the same map projection so it's accurate), as you can see, the Locarno location is way off.
I have to admit I can't figure out the name of the location that's in the place of actual Locarno or why it's owned by Como when actual Como is way further East and owned by Milan.
This a more in-detail map of the area:

Locarno.jpg


Please ignore:
1. The change in the colors of the locations; it's because I'm currently in the branch with the Iberian map review, and colors have changed because of the new additions.
2. The geographical features of the region need to be reviewed, we're aware of it.
 
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1717769565643.png


Hello, I know this tinto maps is about Italy region, but since the Slovenian area is also shown, I thought I might add some suggestions to it. First of all province names. Now I can't see clearly since it is a bit pixelated when I zoom in, but it seems like Gorizia area which was later a part of the Habsburg Inner Austrian domains has the slovenian name for it "Goriška", which makes sense culturaly, but if you went for slovenian names for it, it might also make sense to name Carniola -> Kranjska and Styria -> Štajerska (alternatively "Spodnja Štajerska" / Lower Styria, although I'm not 100% sure if there was a division between lower and upper Styria, the division might have only happened after the colapse of the Austro-Hungarian empire and the adition of Lower Styria to Yugoslavia).

Also, culture wise, although I couldn't find any good 14th century sources, but it might be the case that in locations such as Villach or Klagenfurt (Celovec), the main culture was slovenian with large german minorities, since especially the countryside was mostly Slovenian, while the cities mainly German (at least by the end of the 19th century, I presume the earlier you go the bigger the share of the slovenians was, but again, don't have any 14th century sources myself, just thought you might try to look at it again, not saying it is wrong, just saying it might be).

1717770381126.png


Also when it comes to the terrain, if you're going to split hills into rolling hills and steep/rugged hills, I'd suggest that the locations of Celje and Maribor are rolling hills, while Ljubljana could be steep hills. Kočevje itself, either steep hills or plateau, Postojna definetly platue (since it is a carst plateu) and Novo mesto also plateau probably or rolling hills.

sources: https://eucbeniki.sio.si/geo9/2860/index.html, https://eucbeniki.sio.si/geo9/2860/index1.html, https://isn2.zrc-sazu.si/sl/publikacije/pokrajine-v-sloveniji and a more in depth one: https://zgs.zrc-sazu.si/Portals/8/Geografski_vestnik/Pred1999/GV_6801_123_160.pdf (sadly they're all in slovenian), but there are some pictures which might help.

Also when it comes to resources/goods, I'd suggest you change the resource/good in the location of Postojna to mercury, since it was the 2nd largest mercury mine in Europe untill the early 20th century and at some point the 2nd biggest in the world (by some accounts), although mining first began in 1490's, but after that it became a huge economic boost to the region and to the Habsburg domains. Sources: https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudnik_Idrija, -> it is even on the UNESCO site: https://www.visit-idrija.si/en/experience/2019092609005398/unesco-mercury-story.

Climate and vegetation wise, I think it is pretty accurate more or less:).

Also, Cilli/Celje is based <3

Also, would be cool if you could split up Austria into Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, since it wasn't really all Austria, not even till napoleonic times was it formally all austria.

Anyways, hope it was at least a little bit usefull and I apologise for my bad English, since my main language is Slovenian :D.
 
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