Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

[TimurLamest]

The location "Fivizzano" should be called "Lunigiana" to represent all other towns and villages of historical significance in the area, like Pontremoli and Fostinovo. I can't make out the adjacent province to the south.

 

[maniwaningun]

i would like to actually point out that the famous Parmiggiano Reggiano is not actually from Parma but from Piacenza; that only changed when Parma took over Piacenza, before that it was called Piacentino

 

[Enric de Vimon]

I hope the city names are fixed and translated correctly. I find it absurd that all the cities of Sardinia appear in Italian and those of Provence in French in the 14th century.

 

[Chieron]

continental mean it have the average climate of the continent like eastern france or central europe. Po valley does not have that.

Continental climate has nothing to do with the average of the respective continent.
It refers to a temperate or colder climate that is mostly influenced by the land, compared to maritime climates. That is, it is drier, with greater temperature differences between summer and winter. Central Europe is transitional between maritime and continental. Eastern Europe / Russia is a good example for continental climates.

However, the Po valley is not continental, either way.

 

[Inzano]

As my colleague ArcticKnight has already touched on Lower Styria (Spodnja Štajerska), I will also make another comment. Ptuj (marked with olive green color) known in German as Pettau was under Salzburg in 1337. In 1479, Ptuj was attacked by Hungary and held until 1490, when it was appropriated by the Habsburgs. Ptuj would potentially be another area that could fit into the game. The good that could be produced there would be wine.


View attachment 1145152

This map shows the ethnic territory of the Slovenes between the 12th and 15th centuries. Pink is old German colonization, pink dotted fields are German colonization between the 12th and 15th centuries. The green striped color is an additional conolization of the Slovenes.
View attachment 1145167

The Tolmin (pink area) was under Aquileia in 1337.
View attachment 1145193

I hope I was helpful.

Looking at your maps again, I noticed that Austria contains two more areas that were not part of it in 1337. As you can see on the map above "PREVLADA HABSBURŽANOV NA JUGOVZHODU SV. RIMSKEGA CESARSTVA DO L. 1500" or in English Hapsburg Dominance in the Southeast of the Holy Roman Empire until the year 1500. It can be seen that Bled was owned by Brixen and Škofja Lok was owned by Freising.

 

[Palando]

Looking at your maps again, I noticed that Austria contains two more areas that were not part of it in 1337. As you can see on the map above "PREVLADA HABSBURŽANOV NA JUGOVZHODU SV. RIMSKEGA CESARSTVA DO L. 1500" or in English Hapsburg Dominance in the Southeast of the Holy Roman Empire until the year 1500. It can be seen that Bled was owned by Bamberg and Škofja Lok was owned by Freising.

View attachment 1145274

I actually mentioned all of that in my thread about the HRE: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tria-bavaria-bohemia-swabia-and-more.1679998/

I'd appreciate your feedback there.

Also that not all of Krain was obtained by the Habsburgs in 1335.

 

[Crigsz]

I hope the city names are fixed and translated correctly. I find it absurd that all the cities of Sardinia appear in Italian and those of Provence in French in the 14th century.

Idk how much time it would take though because also for Piedmontese for example Alba should be Arba and Asti should be Ast but it would be so hard to do this for every language in Italy

 

[dario987654321]

Why is Rome still a coastal city??? Rome is not by the sea, and even if today the administrative boundaries of the Capital reach the sea, the historical centre and the walled city are far from the coast. Please add the territory for Ostia, which was already a city in ancient Roman times, it would be more historically correct to have Rome in the countryside and having Ostia in the coast.

 

[Atromb]

As a dweller of the Italian Po Valley, I respectfully disagree. It's humid, yes, but it's not comparable at all with the general concept of "subtropical climate"

What is the general concept of subtropical climate according to you? Subtropical is very closely related to the mediterranean climate, with the main difference being that while mediterranean has a dry season (in summer) subtropical doesn't. You might be thinking that subtropical is the climate of Vietnam, it is not, its the climate of Japan, Shangai, Buenos Aires and the south western US states.

 

[Pavía]

Can't really see are Malta and Lampedusa islands separate locations or are they part of some location on Sicily?

Currently, they're locations, but Lampedusa is most likely not going to make the cut. For comparison, it has 25 pixels, while the Jersey and Guernsey has 114 pixels. Rijeka has 59, and that's why I've previously said that it will most likely be reviewed. Just so you know, we have a soft limit of around 100 pixels, which is the bare minimum we consider to be a playable location (although it's not completely set in stone, that's why I say that it's a soft limit).

 

[Pavía]

I’m pretty sure that it’s not an island but just a weird fusion of the lagune islands with the Cavallino peninsula

It's the case; we'll probably review the coastline, as we did with the Netherlands.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía it would be nice if the game can simulate the very fluid situation of the Italian polities, some are still comuni, some are now signorie. In Northern Italy, there is no clear dominant power yet: the Visconti from Milan are on the rise, the Scaligeri in Verona have a tenuous hold on the North East. 1337 is the year the Da Carrara family makes Padua independent again from Verona, a guess a few months after our start date, and Padua is going to turn the tables on the Scaligeri and later challenge Venice under the cunning and ambitious Francesco I, defined by the Venetian historian Alvise Zorzi the "Carrarese fox" (ruling from 1345 to 1388). It is interesting that Padua allied itself, with Genoa in the Chioggia war, getting closed to give the final blow to the Serenissima. The rise of Venice is still not a certainty, maybe Padua could have beaten the Lion and consolidated its control over the North East. Still, Venice survived thanks to its lagoon, so I vote in favour of re-establishing Venice as an island. Ideally you have a location for "Venice-island" (Rialto) and "Venice-mainland" (Chioggia or Mestre). At the same time it should be possible for Verona to have some ways to consolidate its power as Venice did in the next century, if they are able to keep the other cities in check.

It is very fluid, already.

 

[dario987654321]

Also I think that instead of Velletri, giving the name "Roman Castles" to the territory would be more accurate. That is the name used to indicate all the area and not just the town of Velletri.

 

[Pavía]

Ok, as it has been overlooked two times, I ask it again: what is the motive for the Bavarian Trentino?

According to Serena Luzzi, in the 15th century only 1/14 of the population of the capital city of Trent were Germans. Do we pretend that the Pestilence of the 14th century killed all the German speaking people in the Trentino or may we talk a bit about the cultural minority and majority in this area?

We haven't reviewed yet the region. We will certainly take a look at the matter.

 

[Inzano]

I actually mentioned all of that in my thread about the HRE: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tria-bavaria-bohemia-swabia-and-more.1679998/

I'd appreciate your feedback there.

Also that not all of Krain was obtained by the Habsburgs in 1335.

Sorry, I didn't know thet the your feedback for HRE existed. It's cool that the Diocese of Gurk (Krka) is also mentioned there.

 

[honkajoki]

Don't expect the different regions of the world to have the same density, as they all are different. In Europe, the densest regions are Germany and Italy, which we think makes sense, mainly for historical reasons. Also, take into account that population is an important factor in making countries powerful.

Assuming 1 large location, and 5-6 small locations that have a combined similar area. Assuming they have the same terrain and climate. The small ones will probably get a bonus from having multiple raw goods as opposed to one in the large one. What other differences are there? Can the large one have similar population as the small ones combined? Assuming it has the pops, can it produce similar amount of raw materials, even when less varied? Or is there some mechanic similar to EU4 development cost increasing every time a province is developed, making it easier to have multiple locations with medium amounts of pops and production than one with large amounts?

 

[Jake Dust]

@Pavía you can be honest, are you regretting naming individual locations instead of going the HoI4/Vic3 way of naming just the states?

 

[Tawani]

I am not sure if Dalmatia would better fit into a separate Balkan thread later on, or if it can be considered as part of Italy proper, especially since Dalmatia in this case does also cover Istria. If this isn't the right place for it, I will probably rewrite and repost it on a later Tinto Talk; Regardless, some input I have for the Dalmatian culture:

- Unlike what some people may believe, a "Dalmatian" language, probably did not exist. Rather, it were a variety of languages who's relationships with other romance languages are largely unknown due to a lack of documented evidence. The few recorded snippets that we do have indicate that some of the Dalmatian dialects or languages may have been intermediate between Romanian and Central Italian

- Dalmatian dialects/languages were already heavily on the decline since the 7th century CE. By the 14th century, a lot of the former dialects have already gone extinct and the language(s) was/were largely confined to just a few islands off the coast of Croatia, along with some of the major coastal towns like Zadar, Split and Dubrovnik, although the inhabitants of these cities were more often than not already bilingual by that point as by the 17th century, even cities like Ragusa which prided themselves in their Italic origin, had completely switched over to speaking the local Slavic vernacular;

- Dalmatian being present on the mainland opposite to the island of Krk, is simply wrong for the 14th century. There is no evidence of the presence of Romance speakers in that region since the 7th century, and whatever small population existed there has probably been long assimilated by the 14th century.
So is its presence in the Dalmatian regions proper outside of the cities as the surrounding lands had been settled and assimilated by Slavs centuries ago - both the Frankish Annals and the DAI make it pretty clear that in the 8th and 9th centuries respectively, the concept of Dalmatia and its Romance speaking Dalmatian inhabitants have been limited to just the fortified coastal cities along the coast that would later end up under Croatian suzerainity.

- Additionally, the presence of Dalmatian speakers at the mouth of the Neretva is also very dubious as even the Frankish Annals and contemporary Venetian reports in the 8th century mention the area as being inhabited solely by a Slavic tribes known as the Neretljani who were notorious pirates and who later on got absorbed into the neighbouring Slavic cultures. Whatever Dalmatian people lived there during the Roman era, had either long died, left or got assimilated by 8th century, so it being majority Dalmatian in the 14th century is a little baffling.

- As mentioned before, a single Dalmatian language probably did not exist, and it would probably be better to split the culture into the actual documented varieties that we are aware of, namely Istriot in Istria, Ragusan in Ragusa, Cattaro around Kotor, Veglio on Krk etc.
> But frankly, Dalmatian in this time period is already very obscure and its representation as an Italian or Romance culture seems excessive. It is certainly nice flavour, but artificially grouping very different regional varieties, especially after seeing that other such groupings like Rhenish had been broken up, is not the right approach.
If the small amount of pops for each culture would make them fall out of line in the overall game design, then maybe their inclusion should be scrapped, instead of inflating their numbers to justify its existence.

For visual reference, I did also attach a map of the recorded extend of Dalmatian in the 14th century which for the most part, really only covers the northern islands, istria an then the individual coastal cities in Dalmatia. - But then again important to bare in mind that apart from Veglio and Ragusan, all the other varieties are just purely hypothetical based on secondary accounts and may very well have already been extinct in the 14th century.

PS: This post covers purely the "Dalmatian" culture. The presence of Italian speakers in form of later Venetian or Central Italian migrants, or of potentially assimilated local slavs into Venetian culture, is an entirely different topic to which I may post a separate thread later (either here, or in a separate Balkan thread if that's more appropriate).

 

[Atromb]

100% purely vibes based. I just don't like the names. Yes, I will personally lead the fight against these scientists who have dedicated their lives to coming up with and refining these classifications purely because of me not liking the names.


EDIT: Also, @Karalis123's post on Sardinia gets my vote for post of the month!

In all fairness the popular names can be a bit confusing, but the alternative would be calling subtropical "Cfa", oceanic "Cfb" and mediterranean "Csa"

 

[Chrysalis2112]

What is the releasable situation looking like in this region? Lets say I wanted to do a Ghibelline 'Voltaire's Nightmare' playthrough and extend the HRE across the entire peninsula, are there releasable states in places such as Apulia, Calabria, etc that can be broken off of Naples? I remember there being an affirmative 'yes' when asked about a similar situation with Iberia