Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

[Lord_Aaron07]

I know the DD is about Italy but I noticed in Carinthia there is the location Steinfeld, but I would really suggest changing the name to Greifenburg which was first mentioned in 1166 and which also was a much more important village in that time due to trade than Steinfeld, which was first mentioned in 1267 and only got more important in the 15th century because of their mining industry. Greifenburg on the other hand was already an importand trading municipality (since 1267) and especially gained in importnace in the late 14th century due to more and more trade.

 

[Palando]

View attachment 1145152

I was first confused why Duino (with Rijeka and Prem) were supposedly obtained in 1466, but your map shows something different than mine. The Lords of Duino became Habsburg vassal in 1366, they died out in ca. 1406, and their property got inherited by the Lords of Walsee who bequeathed it to the Habsburgs in 1466.

 

[alexkowal123]

I think modern microstates should get special treatment

 

[Gainsboro]

Currently, they're locations, but Lampedusa is most likely not going to make the cut. For comparison, it has 25 pixels, while the Jersey and Guernsey has 114 pixels. Rijeka has 59, and that's why I've previously said that it will most likely be reviewed. Just so you know, we have a soft limit of around 100 pixels, which is the bare minimum we consider to be a playable location (although it's not completely set in stone, that's why I say that it's a soft limit).

I see. Thanks for the answer and can't wait to play it! And I'm curious how many islands/locations will there be in the Aegean Sea - there's a ton of them.

 

[Palando]

Currently, they're locations, but Lampedusa is most likely not going to make the cut. For comparison, it has 25 pixels, while the Jersey and Guernsey has 114 pixels. Rijeka has 59, and that's why I've previously said that it will most likely be reviewed. Just so you know, we have a soft limit of around 100 pixels, which is the bare minimum we consider to be a playable location (although it's not completely set in stone, that's why I say that it's a soft limit).

Rijeka could extend to Prem (Ilirska Bistrica) to include all of the lands held by the Lords of Duino who switched over to the Habsburgs in 1366. That would certainly make the province big enough. Although Senosetsch (Senožeče) also belonged to the Lords of Duino, the province would rather look odd then, so I'm unsure whether or not it should also be added to that one.

 

[Romanix90]

Can we manualy rename provinces and cities?

 

[mrflagio]

Lago Lesina and Lago Varano are missing:

 

[Inzano]

I was first confused why Duino (with Rijeka and Prem) were supposedly obtained in 1466, but your map shows something different than mine. The Lords of Duino became Habsburg vassal in 1366, they died out in ca. 1406, and their property got inherited by the Lords of Walsee who bequeathed it to the Habsburgs in 1466.

I have not found a more detailed map of South Austria than this one so far. These vintages come in handy to help explain the history of these places.

 

[mrflagio]

I'm not sure how y'all are differentiating between hills and mountains, but this region is almost entirely mountainous and was historically super defensible because of it. I don't think anyone would call this region of Abruzzo hills -- it's pretty much all mountains with the cities located in the shallow valleys between peaks and around mountain lakes.

The Central Apennines in general are severely underrepresented on this map. They are huge and dominate the landscape of central Italy from the time you get out of the Roman foothills until you hit the Adriatic it's mostly rocky peaks.

Also, Abruzzo is not subtropical. The coastline (like most of the Adriatic) is Mediterranean and the mountains are probably closer to Continental/Oceanic. It's a bit weird since you've combined the topology and climate of the coast and the mountains into one region and they're vastly different from each other, so pick one but it's definitely not subtropical (I'd vote Oceanic I guess).

 

[jkchart]

Currently, they're locations, but Lampedusa is most likely not going to make the cut. For comparison, it has 25 pixels, while the Jersey and Guernsey has 114 pixels. Rijeka has 59, and that's why I've previously said that it will most likely be reviewed. Just so you know, we have a soft limit of around 100 pixels, which is the bare minimum we consider to be a playable location (although it's not completely set in stone, that's why I say that it's a soft limit).

Makes sense if there’s a soft pixel limit as to why we wouldn’t see San Marino and Monaco then, I’m assuming they each come under 50 and would be difficult to play with

 

[Enric de Vimon]

Idk how much time it would take though because also for Piedmontese for example Alba should be Arba and Asti should be Ast but it would be so hard to do this for every language in Italy

As much as the Italian translations. There's nothing hard about it. There aren't so many languages nor so many provinces.

If you don't want to do any research, just take the names from Wikipedia or let people in the forums correct it.

 

[Metz]

@Pavía

1) Will Rome be moved away from the coastline and have Ostia or Civitavecchia as its port location?

2) Will you consider adding Calabrian and Apulian (or Pugliese) culture to southern Italy? Maybe also split Emilian into Romagnol and Emilian.

 

[Civit]

Why cotton in Apulia? And maybe you can change Francavilla to Oria (main center here in Middle Age, also with a strong jewish minority)

 

[Vias]

I saw the maps and must say you did a great job! While I'm at it, I thought I could add my two cents to the situation in Sicily in the game. I didn't read all the posts in the thread, so I hope I didn't repeat something someone else already pointed out.

1. Names of Locations and Provinces:
   • It's not "Val De Demena" but "Val Demone."
   • It's "Siracusa," not "Siracuse."
   • You used "Val di Girgenti" for the province centered in Agrigento but called the city "Agrigento." However, Agrigento was called "Girgenti" during this time period. The name "Agrigento" was restored only under fascism in the 1920s.
   • You used the name "Terranova di Sicilia" for Gela. Gela was the name of the Greek colony. The city was then destroyed and abandoned over the centuries until Frederick II Hohenstaufen founded a new city there called "Terranova" (literally "new land") or "Terranova Heraclea." It was called "Terranova di Sicilia" only after the Unification of Italy.
   • It's not "Cefalu" but "Cefalù," with an accent on the "U."
2. Terrain:
   • Most of Sicily is set as flatland. Keep in mind that Sicily has only two significant plains: the Conca d'Oro (around Palermo) and the Catania plain. There is a bit of a plain in the Trapani area, so that could be fine, but some corrections are needed for the rest.
   • Mt. Etna should be a mountain and perhaps should be separated from the Catania location, making it an impassable mountain like in Imperator, as central Sicily was not easy to navigate.
   • There should be an impassable mountain where the Madonia mountains are, around the southern part of the Cefalù location, similar to Imperator.
   • The Girgenti area and especially the Val di Noto around Modica should at least be hills, as this is where the Monti Erei and Monti Iblei are located. The city of Agrigento is built on hills.
   • The Mistretta location should be woods, as it includes the Nebrodi forest, where the Parco dei Nebrodi regional park is today. It was a large forest back then, and it still is.
3. Culture Map:
   • There should theoretically be more Greek-speaking communities in Sicily around this time period, as mentioned by another poster, but I couldn't find more precise information about this.
   • I noticed you added Gallo-Italic areas in Sicily. I love it; you did very good research, and it shows.
4. Economy Map:
   • I can't say much about the economy map as I'm not very knowledgeable about this time period economy of the island. However, I know there should be significant salt production in Augusta salt evaporation ponds, and some very important tuna fishery sites in Sicily until very recent times. I'm not sure if it was like that in the 1300s, so I hope someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

 

[Pilbur]

Sure:

View attachment 1145059

Dear @Pavía , this is super, thank you!

Can you provide a zoomed version of Northwestern Italy? If I am not mistaken Mondovi’ might be with Anjou (also same or very similar color).

Also, can you share something more on how vassalages/dependency status between a monarchy as overlord and a commune as subject will work?

Feedback on whether the cities of southern Piedmont should be vassals of Provence or simply allied/Guelph league also depend on what being a vassal entails

 

[Pavía]

Assuming 1 large location, and 5-6 small locations that have a combined similar area. Assuming they have the same terrain and climate. The small ones will probably get a bonus from having multiple raw goods as opposed to one in the large one. What other differences are there? Can the large one have similar population as the small ones combined? Assuming it has the pops, can it produce similar amount of raw materials, even when less varied? Or is there some mechanic similar to EU4 development cost increasing every time a province is developed, making it easier to have multiple locations with medium amounts of pops and production than one with large amounts?

There are pros and cons. There will be 5 or 6 different goods, true, but you would also need to build 5 or 6 bailiffs and roads instead of 1 to get the same level of control in those locations. And yes, Johan has already talked about some factors that affect the amount of population that you can have in a certain location: food capacity and supply, etc.

 

[Pavía]

I see. Thanks for the answer and can't wait to play it! And I'm curious how many islands/locations will there be in the Aegean Sea - there's a ton of them.

More than in other PDX GSGs, but not every island is a location.

 

[Pavía]

Makes sense if there’s a soft pixel limit as to why we wouldn’t see San Marino and Monaco then, I’m assuming they each come under 50 and would be difficult to play with

Yes, exactly.

 

[Calliyop]

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
View attachment 1144940
The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

View attachment 1144941
View attachment 1144942
Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Locations
View attachment 1144948
There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
View attachment 1144958
Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
View attachment 1144959
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View attachment 1144961
Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
View attachment 1144962
Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
View attachment 1144963
Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
View attachment 1144964
Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
View attachment 1144965
There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
View attachment 1144966
View attachment 1144967
There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!

Hi Pavia, and thank you for posting this brand new map! And hello to dear Italians too!

Although not an Italian myself, I've worked on a couple of regions there and made some maps. So that I've got a bit of experience around, especially in the isles of Corsica, Sardinia and Sicily. So my post here will mainly concern the principale islands.

The political mapmode looks great in Italy, I'm loving the colours and choices made to represent the different entities. Although I'm supporting depictions of Monaco (as both a location and state under the Grimaldi), Benevento, island of Venezia, San Marino. But I'll let the Italians speak of these better than I could ever do.

Indeed, as you've shown it later than this post, the "leagues" mapmode, showing both Guelphs and Gibellines, is better than showing either one, or the other, separately.

So, about Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily: They look very well represented! The way the locations are shaped looks balanced, as well as realistic, due to historical weight for each of them. I'm surprised that in Corsica, Sartene has been prefered to Bonifacio, but anyway. It's the same Genoese rule in there, and still a good choice, historically.

I can tell the same about Sardinia, with great respect to the long-lasting judicates borders. Afterall, the game starts in 1337. By the way, will there be a special chain of event for Arborea, which in the 1340's and early 1350's, if I'm correct, managed to reconquer ALL of Sardinia, with the exception of... either Sassari, either Alghero, I can never remember? As well as the town of Cagliari. But otherwise, the Arboreans were on the brink of conquering all the island, before finally being crushed by the Aragonese. That would be awesome to see the rise of the last judicate, though it would give you more work. Maybe that's the lover of Sardinia in me who's talking.

Samely, the island of Sicily appears to be accurate with its internal locations. I'm not sure if the small island of Pantelleria, southwest of Sicily, is part of Trapani location, or part of Gela location (whose name doesn't appear on the map), or if it eventually is its own location. Which would be perfect for a mapgame more zoomed in, but probably unnecessary for the current scope and project.

Moving to topography, vegetation. I wanted to express this earlier: Please, dear Pavia, please, dear Paradoxians, do not set marshes into topography, but into vegetation layer. Please! That would more realistic, regarding land development, with drying marshes, deforestation, and growing cultures, as being part of the same mechanic, if there ever was one (I'd love to create a map simulation with these kind of features, if I could do that. Here, for instance: how could Venezia location be both concerned by marshes and farmlands? I'm not sure that's too realistic. But again, you're free to disagree. All I'm doing is making suggestions.

So, staying there about topography: Corsica is very well depicted. Don't change its topography. I assume everyone will agree with its current state (and the location of Aleria, representing the fertile plains there, is great). I'd say the same about Sardinia, although I'm unsure if the central mountains of Gennargentu should be hills, or mountains. Sardinia is as mountainous as Corsica, but the main difference between the two is Sardinia's mounts are more spread. So I understand hills choice, but maybe not for "east"-central Sardinia.

Talking about Sicily's topography: almost everything looks fine. However... it's embarassing having a location for Catania, with plains (indeed there are!), but in the same location, still, we can find the famous mount Etna... one of the yet active volcanoes of Italia, which culminates at 3357 meters above the sea level. So... why not putting it as an impassable territory? Again, just a suggestion (otherwise, I may secretly constitute a spy network to force you implementing it ingame... just saying! ). I also thought it'd be better to put, why not an impassable terrain of Monti Iblei (Hybleans mountains), to prevent passing directly from Siracusa location to Modica. As in the timeframe, there's no interesting city for the gamescope (sorry to everyone living near Palazzolo Acreide!).

I won't make cultures mapmode any suggestion. It seems to greatly represent actual realities too, but several other gentlemen have made, or will make suggestions in this matter (Mediano, or Mezzano, for Central Italian culture). I'll just say, Corsican culture in top-north Sardinia is accurate, as corsican immigration began there in the early 1300's, if I'm not mistaken. Also, I have no idea if Romagnol should be separate from Emilian culture, as you've done the splitting of Poitevin and Saintongeais to France (accurately). Again, I'll let the others speak about what they know better.

Trade goods, now! Nothing to react about Corsica, plus, I lack infos and research about Sicily. So my comments here will concern Sardinia. As someone suggested it too, shouldn't Cagliari have salt as a raw good? Which was, and still is important in the area. The same way, I'm surprised with wheat for Sulcis/Carbonia, as historically, either bronze, or tin, was produced there (again, I don't remember everything perfectly since I've worked a while ago on Sardinia). Even Iglesias location surprises me with lead... which may not be incorrect, but the town was known for its important silver production (which... was one of the most noticeable of Europe, if I'm correct). And if I'm not mistaken there too, I suspected parts of Gallura, to the northeast, with stones production. But again, I hope some Sardinian gentleman will bring more info on that, or eventually correct me.

At last, populations! I LOVE how you allow two mapmodes, one for a state, the other one for locations. It's a great way to quickly see where your subjects are living. In that matter, I would suggest putting different shades of the same colour, either red or green, so that instinctively, one will see even quicker how populations are distributed accross the map. I know it's not the same area, but I'll use one of my most recent mapworks as an example. It's the area of Aunis-Saintonge, with pops around the year 1800, I hope you won't get disturbed with the area chosen as you've well reminded everyone to stay focus on each topic.



For a moment, I feared the population of Corsica was way much too big, but then I looked at locations population mapmode, and it seems perfect! The other locations in Italy seem similar in terms of accuracy. I do wonder how you've been able to depict close numbers to what it was in that time, but I'll assume you've worked a LOT on the pop system. The main concern here will be how pops will grow and decline, but for the start of the game, it seems highly realistic. Well done!

If I may share the maps I made about the islands, several years ago... well, I'm gonna share them here, just below.
They may not be as accurate as the ones I'm making now, but they still are relevant. I think.


I'm eager to see the British Isles next week!!!

 

[Pavía]

Why cotton in Apulia? And maybe you can change Francavilla to Oria (main center here in Middle Age, also with a strong jewish minority)

Because cotton was cultivated in Apulia. I specifically researched all the sources of Cotton in medieval Europe, and I found a couple of academic articles marking all the regions where it was cultivated.