Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

[AntarcticRanger]

In gameplay terms, I believe that a definitive majority of the peasantry should be culturally Greek in southern Calabria and Salento, the nobility should be primarily Sicilian or Neapolitan, and the clergy should be split between Greek Orthodox and Sicilian or Neapolitan Catholics. The Burghers could arguably go either way. I would also place a Greek minority in the tip of Sicily across from Calabria.

"In the second half of the thirteenth century Roger Bacon wrote the Pope concerning Italy, 'in which, in many places, the clergy and the people were purely Greek.' An old French chronicler stated of the same time that the peasants of Calabria spoke nothing but Greek."
Vasil’ev, Aleksandr. History of the Byzantine Empire

"…the Orthodox church retained adherents in both Calabria and Apulia into the early 17th century."
Horrocks, Geoffrey. Greek: A History of the Language and Its Speakers

"During the fifteenth century, for example, Antonio Galateo, an eminent physician of Greek descent, who spoke Greek fluently and had a sound Greek education, described the inhabitants of Kallipoli as still conversing in their original mother tongue"
Vakalopoulos, Apostolos. The Greek nation, 1453-1669: the cultural and economic background of modern Greek society

"In Gallipoli, a Latinization attempt also failed in the early 12th century, and that see was occupied by Greeks until the 1370s. The Greek rite was practiced in Salento until the 17th century."
Levillain, Philippe. The Papacy: Gaius-Proxies

"In former times, the two areas were much larger: in the 16th century, the Greek area in Calabria took in about 25 villages, while in Puglia Greek was spoken in the 15th century covering the whole Salento coastal strip between Mardo and Gallipoli in the west up to the edge of Malendugno-Otranto in the east."
Commission of the European Communities, Istituto della Enciclopedia italiana. Linguistic minorities in countries belonging to the European community: summary report

"At the end of the twelfth century…While in Apulia Greeks were in a majority – and indeed present in any numbers at all – only in the Salento peninsula in the extreme south, at the time of the conquest they had an overwhelming preponderance in Lucaina and central and southern Calabria, as well as comprising anything up to a third of the population of Sicily, concentrated especially in the north-east of the island, the Val Demone."
Loud, G. A. The Latin Church in Norman Italy

"In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza."
Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex. The society of Norman Italy

Yes! Someone else has good sources! I've been way too busy to dig up good sources myself, but the lack of greeks is definitely my biggest gripe with this map.
Thank you so much for your research!
I'm pretty sure that the greeks were Catholics under the byzantine/greek rite and not full on Orthodox though, at least officially.

 

[Cooleatack]

Thinking of Sardinia, I would suggest cork to be another resource that could be added. Perhaps for the supply chain of wine? Many Mediterranean regions, as well as mainly Portugal had cork trees that were exploited to produce and trade the isolating material.

 

[Mef]

Perhaps for the supply chain of wine?

Wine is a raw material so it has no input goods.

 

[DarkCeschi]

Some help with the names, from someone with Italian as first language:
Punente is Ponente, Florence is Firenze, Mantua Is Mantova, Padula is Padova, Grosetto is Grosseto, Terra di Lavoro is Campania, San Pietro in Tuscia can be Lazio or Patrimonio di San Pietro,Citra e Ultra mean nothing in italian is Citeriore and Ulteriore,Venice is Venezia, Campagna is Ciociaria (well, really... the biggest city here is Frosinone, in the Ciociaria region), Capitanata Is Capitanato (the name is given from the byz... romanoi). And that's is all, because for the islands (Corsica, Sardegna and Sicilia) names are dependant of the culture governing them (not Italians for a looooong time).

 

[Cooleatack]

Wine is a raw material so it has no input goods.

Well yes, but it produces something right? So I meant to include cork in that production chain.

Perhaps for a different quality product?

 

[Mef]

Well yes, but it produces something right? So I meant to include cork in that production chain.

Perhaps for a different quality product?

Wine is produced in RGOs, there is no chain. Goods don't have quality.

 

[viola]

Subtropical climate? xD

It just means it's very wet.

Which is correct. The Po Valley is a very humid environment.

 

[pescinese97]

Some help with the names, from someone with Italian as first language:
Punente is Ponente, Florence is Firenze, Mantua Is Mantova, Padula is Padova, Grosetto is Grosseto, Terra di Lavoro is Campania, San Pietro in Tuscia can be Lazio or Patrimonio di San Pietro,Citra e Ultra mean nothing in italian is Citeriore and Ulteriore,Venice is Venezia, Campagna is Ciociaria (well, really... the biggest city here is Frosinone, in the Ciociaria region), Capitanata Is Capitanato (the name is given from the byz... romanoi). And that's is all, because for the islands (Corsica, Sardegna and Sicilia) names are dependant of the culture governing them (not Italians for a looooong time).

Mantua and Padua are the old names for those cities; Terra di Lavoro is the actual name of the historical region now comprised between Campania, Lazio and Molise; San Pietro in Tuscia should be called Tuscia Laziale; Citra and Ultra are abbreviations of Citeriore and Ulteriore actually used in the administrative departments names in the Reign of Napoli; Capitanata is the right name; Ciociaria is a name only used starting in the XIX century.

 

[Lapopopopo]

Yahe

I actually found claims that would state the opposite. Like the following map.
View attachment 1145395

I tried very quickly coloring it in:
View attachment 1145397

The German Wikipedia also claims:

"Until around 1800, the language border ran about 15 kilometers south of Salurn at the confluence of the Noce (German: Ulz) and the Avisio (German: Efeis) with the Adige. The entire area to the left of the Adige, including the city of Trento (except the valleys along the Avisio and the Ivano district in the Lower Valsugana), had a German majority or a strong German minority from the 11th to the 17th century, and partly beyond.[19] The Cembra Valley, the Fleim Valley (except the German towns of Altrei and Truden) as well as the Nonsberg (excluding Deutschnonsberg) and the Sulzberg were Ladin.

The Italian Trentino in its current compact form only came into being as a result of an intensive phase of Italianization through ethnic homogenization since the middle of the 18th century."

Sources being:
- Bernhard Wurzer: Die deutschen Sprachinseln in Oberitalien. 4. überarb. Ausgabe, Bozen 1977
- Bepe Richebuono: Breve storia dei Ladini dolomitici. Istitut Ladin Micurà de Rü, San Martin de Tor 1992

Yeah, no, this doesn’t make any sense at all.
If I am reading this well the map you posted considers the Adige Valley as mainly German speaking even below Salurn, which is obviously wrong. The only alternative to making Trentino Italian majority would be to make it Ladin majority (or Retroromance as shown in your map, which is still a Latin derived language) with numerous German speaking minorities for sure, yes, but not German majority for sure.
Dante (who died in 1321) considered Trento as Italian as “Torino and Alessandria”. As written in his “De Vulgari Eloquentia”. Moreover the Mocheni and Cimbri, German speaking populations which were moving to Trentino in this decades, were considered “foreign”, which wouldn’t make any sense if th majority of the population around them were German speaking as well.


Another reason that makes me think that what you said is wrong are the neighboring towns of Mezzolombardo and Mezzocorona, which are found halfway between the city of Trento and Bolzano.
In the 12th-13th centuries, when they were created, that area was the original linguistic boundaries between the German and Italian speaking regions (Around Salurn, as show in your map). Mezzolombardo, the southernmost, was called “Lombardo” because at the time it meant Italian speaking, , en northernmost, instead was originally (and until the 19th century) called Mezzotedesco, (Tedesco means German in Italian), because there began the German majority areas.

 

[Cooleatack]

Wine is produced in RGOs, there is no chain. Goods don't have quality.

So there is nothing like a: glass + wine produced at a vineyard building production chain? How do you know?

I understood that all raw goods serve to fit one of these chains. I could be wrong, but that would make sense to me.

Cork would fit the above and make The region a little more unique

 

[RPC321]

I don't know where exactly, but shouldn't the region of Abruzzo have some wine production?

 

[Pickman89]

Regarding province naming suggestions:

I feel that the provinces in the Tirol area should be named in the original German as that was (and in many areas outside of Italy still is) the name used. It's a difficult call because those are not very famous areas outside of that area. Anyway the official names today are bilingual and most of the Italian names were literally invented after the Great War. It is a contentious issue though, I recommend relying on dynamic names so that players can make the province have whatever name they want.
Also it is okay but a bit weird to see Merano and not see Tirol. Tirol, the capital town of Tirol. The town that gives the name to the family and thus the state. A town that was still the capital in 1337 afaik. Merano was bigger (and walled, an actual city by the standards of the time) and they are quite close.

Regarding the incident view:
I know it would be tricky but it could be interesting to have a view of the factions involved in a situation in a single screen. It would be even more interesting to add a level of customisation so that the user can select from a list what factions are on the map. For example France might be Guelph but also part of a coalition against a very aggressive Spain so by seeing that at the same time you could better estimate what conflicts are going to happen and when to trigger your own conflict. For example when the Emperor descends in Italy and France supports the Pope and Spain decides to take the occasion to dismantle the coalition it might just be the right moment to restart the Hundred Years war but it necessitates switching views multiple times at the moment and keeping in mind what factions are in what situation.

 

[SafS.99]

Will the King of Naples (Robert of Anjou) have any claims or cores on the provinces of Kingdom of Jerusalem? Since he was the titular king of Jerusalem

 

[slaaah]

@pavia i know this one is about italy but as a tunisian i have to say this. and correct me if i'm wrong about the culture in the north african bits from my understanding of history the Tunisian Algerian Moroccan "divergences" only happened quite recently in the 1800-1900s which i also had a problem with in EU4 .Those 3 should be all Maghrebi as for kabyle and zenati and berber they should remain separate .either way i LOVE the italian map

 

[dragonluke]

I do hope you add waldesians, it's kind of weird having lollards and hussites but not them

 

[IVM.Firefly]

Some quick thoughts:
1. Add Benevento as a Papal exclave in Naples
2. Separate Elba from Piombino

 

[JohnCro]

It just means it's very wet.

Which is correct. The Po Valley is a very humid environment.

Indeed and it is practically hot summer version of oceanic (which has warm summers) , both feature no dry season

 

[JohnCro]

Some quick thoughts:
1. Add Benevento as a Papal exclave in Naples
2. Separate Elba from Piombino

I too would like to see Benevento, it is large enough to be a location I think

 

[The Valkyrier]

it really shows that a ton of work has gone into the Italian region and it is very much appreciated!

One thing I would like to ask about however, is the distinction between lombard and venetian culture and if this is based on purely game balance reasons. I would argue that in 1337 as opposed to 1444, whilst the city of Venice definitely had a distinct cultural identity that would eventually come to influence the cities that were absorbed into the venetian polity over the next century, the mainland cities in Veneto were integral parts of a wider north Italian culture and that no meaningful distinction between say Treviso in the east (the first mainland city to be absorbed into the Venetian republic, around the game's start date) and cities further west that never fell under the rule of Venice can be made (whether it be culturally, politically, or economically).

For reference, part one of "a history of venice" by John Julius Norwich as well as chapter 15 "the mainland dominion". It's a really good read in general for anyone that's interested in the history of Venice.

Amazon.com

Edit: Spelling

 

[VinceDreux]

[...] Terra di Lavoro is Campania, [...] Capitanata Is Capitanato (the name is given from the byz... romanoi). [...]

Terra di Lavoro was the official name of the province for centuries, I wouldn't change it to Campania. CapitanatA was the name of the province, I don't know where you got CapitanatO from.