Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

[Pilum2211]

Yahe

Yeah, no, this doesn’t make any sense at all.
If I am reading this well the map you posted considers the Adige Valley as mainly German speaking even below Salurn, which is obviously wrong. The only alternative to making Trentino Italian majority would be to make it Ladin majority (or Retroromance as shown in your map, which is still a Latin derived language) with numerous German speaking minorities for sure, yes, but not German majority for sure.
Dante (who died in 1321) considered Trento as Italian as “Torino and Alessandria”. As written in his “De Vulgari Eloquentia”. Moreover the Mocheni and Cimbri, German speaking populations which were moving to Trentino in this decades, were considered “foreign”, which wouldn’t make any sense if th majority of the population around them were German speaking as well.


Another reason that makes me think that what you said is wrong are the neighboring towns of Mezzolombardo and Mezzocorona, which are found halfway between the city of Trento and Bolzano.
In the 12th-13th centuries, when they were created, that area was the original linguistic boundaries between the German and Italian speaking regions (Around Salurn, as show in your map). Mezzolombardo, the southernmost, was called “Lombardo” because at the time it meant Italian speaking, , en northernmost, instead was originally (and until the 19th century) called Mezzotedesco, (Tedesco means German in Italian), because there began the German majority areas.

Why is the German Language area reaching till Salurn "obviously wrong". You need to provide a few more reasons for that. For the record though I also agree that it might be better represented as majority Ladin though I am no expert on this.

Yes, Dante may have (without checking the sources right now cause I am on my phone) considered the city of Trento as Italian, which it definitely was. But you can of course correct me if he was talking about the whole countryside.
On the other hand Goethe during his Italian Travels in the late 18th century claimed the German Language area reached till around Rovereto.

Additionally the Mocheni and Cimbri would still be considered foreign considering they would be recent and new settler's from across the Alps and weren't part of the already established population. This is after all before the era of real national self identification so anyone from beyond ones own region would be considered foreign.

Regarding the two Italian cities of Mezzolombardo and Mezzotedesco the Italian Wikipedia claims the name originates due to the one falling under the ownership of the Counts of Tyrol and the other still being ruled by the Bishop of Trento, not because of Linguistic reasons.


In the end though I would say this as a topic that requires a lot more research and Paradox is probably gonna look into it.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

Please can Venice and the Island of Lido be represented properly on the map as their own separate entities, I'd much rather see that than having it contained as a mainland province.

Venice was and should be an Island and that's what made Venice what it was.

The Venetian Lagoon is almost impassable for hostile armies and navies, the Island should be properly represented and while not as impassable for gameplay value (maybe made more difficult somehow) it should be its own thing to make the navy more important.

I think the map of the EU4 mod Voltaires Nightmare 2 gets it right where they include Lido, San Ersamo, And maybe Burano and Torcello to make it a lot more clickable:

Leaving you with a really nice compromise between utility and scenary, and then you can include the island in all its splendor

I'd much rather see a larger Venetian islands complex properly mapped a little bit more than have it as one little weird looking round blob.

 

[CursedRacer850]

imo there are way to few Greeks in south italy and Sicily also albanians only arrived after ottoman conquest in the balkans

 

[Eibhleann_]

View attachment 1145107

(It doesn't look so pixelated in-game, it's because of the quick screenshot I've just taken)

Ok so I'm not quite sure if this has already been confirmed or not, but i assume there is already support for a country having either a flag (as shown here) or a coat of arms (as shown in the last TT), depending on the tag. So there is already precedent for the overarching category of "national symbols" (idk what else to call them) having different shapes. So would it be possible to implement things like fringes for example, like the Venetian flag had them? Or different shapes for coats of arms? If we have already thrown out the rigidity of flags/CoAs in games like EU4 or Victoria 3 i don't see why you couldn't further diversify them for the sake of flavor.

 

[Melkorthedarklord]

some suggestion as an italian: the location and province should be called Grosseto, with one t, and not Grossetto, also, in my opinion, the province of Sovana should be renamed to Orbetello since is the greatest city in the location area, also, i think that Romagol should be an indipendent culture from Emilian, also Fritizzano, in Tuscany, should be renamed to Carrara in my opinion

 

[Melkorthedarklord]

another correction, in south italy, some provinces are called "Principato Citra" or "Principato Ultra", it should be called Citeriore and Ulteriore

 

[Trevi04]

In the Trentino region people are quite proud of the connection with the Germanic world, but this influence is not considered relevant before the Austrian arrived.
Before that, the Germans in the surroundings and south of Trento were only some merchants in the city and the Knapfen, a small minority that was moved there from Bohemia for silver extraction.
When Trentino was annexed to Italy the overwhelming majority of the population was Italian speaking, an Italianization during the 18 century is unlikely since should have happened when the Austrians were ruling the land. Out of the Adige valley the villages are extremely isolated with mostly self sufficient communities, it is therefore at least weird that these communities didn't keep at least a Germanic dialect but instead an Italian one

I actually found claims that would state the opposite. Like the following map.
View attachment 1145395

I tried very quickly coloring it in:
View attachment 1145397

The German Wikipedia also claims:

"Until around 1800, the language border ran about 15 kilometers south of Salurn at the confluence of the Noce (German: Ulz) and the Avisio (German: Efeis) with the Adige. The entire area to the left of the Adige, including the city of Trento (except the valleys along the Avisio and the Ivano district in the Lower Valsugana), had a German majority or a strong German minority from the 11th to the 17th century, and partly beyond.[19] The Cembra Valley, the Fleim Valley (except the German towns of Altrei and Truden) as well as the Nonsberg (excluding Deutschnonsberg) and the Sulzberg were Ladin.

The Italian Trentino in its current compact form only came into being as a result of an intensive phase of Italianization through ethnic homogenization since the middle of the 18th century."

Sources being:
- Bernhard Wurzer: Die deutschen Sprachinseln in Oberitalien. 4. überarb. Ausgabe, Bozen 1977
- Bepe Richebuono: Breve storia dei Ladini dolomitici. Istitut Ladin Micurà de Rü, San Martin de Tor 1992

In the Trentino region people are quite proud of the connection with the Germanic world, but this influence is not considered relevant before the Austrian arrived.
Before that, the Germans in the surroundings and south of Trento were only some merchants in the city and the Knapfen, a small minority that was moved there from Bohemia for silver extraction.
When Trentino was annexed to Italy the overwhelming majority of the population was Italian speaking, an Italianization during the 18 century is unlikely since should have happened when the Austrians were ruling the land. Out of the Adige valley the villages are extremely isolated with mostly self sufficient communities, it is therefore at least weird that these communities didn't keep at least a Germanic dialect but instead an Italian one

 

[nembo22]

Emilian, Umbrian, Neapolitan and Sicilian cultures need some rework.

Beside this, the Republic of Noli is missing on the map. It's one of the Italian maritime republics, as Genoa and Venice. It seceded from the Carretto marquisate, present on the map, and had a protectorate-like relation (maybe a guarantee?) with Genoa. It declined after the crusades.

 

[TheNunnceler]

Sure:

View attachment 1145059

i notice dynasties shown in florence, genoa, siena, venice, and so on, but not in the papal states. does this mean republics will show the dynasty of the current ruler, but theocracies will not?

 

[Panino al-Salam]

I don't know if Paradox already added it but Verona under Mastino II della Scala should be at war with basically most of northern Italy.A Coalition was formed by Venice and Florence in 1335 and then joined by Milan,Ferrara,Mantua in the next 2 years(1337).This war would result in the crippling of the Scalas power as Verona was dismembered by their neighbours ,reduced in the end to just owning Verona and Vicenza,Parma and Lucca(1339).Parma was then taken away later by Azzo da Coreggio and Lucca was sold as it was no longer a defensible holding.I think you should take a deeper look into the matter

 

[ntseddfc0]

Hi! I wanted to give my thoughts about the resources around my area. I am from Brescia.
I do think the Brescia location should have marble, since 5 kilometres from Brescia there is the Botticino marble, second in production after the carrara marble and used since the Roman times. It's again the second most extracted and largest marble production in Italy up to this day.
You can verify this information apart from the stunning pictures of the mountains you can see online also in various sites, such as the consortium of producers of said marble, the website is also in English

For the locations around the Garda Lake, apart from wine also olives are very important. It's the only place in the Po valley where olives do grow, and so in my opinion at least one location around the Lake should switch from wine to olives to represent the commercial importance of olives in the region, it really was a staple of regional trade since it was the only local source of olive oil for Lombardy, Veneto and Trento regions. It was noted also by Federico Barbarossa while he was going to Rome for its coronation from Germany.

At last, my father is from Soncino. Despite livestock being certainly produced up to this day in great abundance, clay was also very much important. All the buildings in the city of Soncino and nearby fortresses, city walls and castle, are built in clay bricks. There is a reason why the biggest brick producer in Italy (Danesi) is based in Soncino, clay was that abundant,. So in my opinion you could also consider clay for this area, since it was probably the most important strategic resource, furnaces were present in Gallignano (a neighborhood of Soncino) since Roman times.

Thank you very much for these maps, it was amazing to see my father's medieval town as a locations, and good luck for your work, the maps look stunning!

PS I tried to post some sources but I could since it was blocked as possible spam content, if you need any sources feel free to contact me

 

[Gamakazil]

A correction/suggestion for the outskirts of Italy - modern-day city of Rijeka/Fiume and its surroundings.

In the map you proposed, the area is just a tad bit wrong, and the border of Croatia/HRE is a bit too far to the west. Historically, a hard border between HRE and Croatia was the river of Rječina, which nowadays cuts city of Rijeka in half. But the modern city of Rijeka is a result of post-WW2 peace, and at no point before that was a city of Rijeka one city.

It was a fort Trsat (Tarsatica) with a city of Sušak around it (that land was a demesne of the Crown of St. Stephen) with city of Fiume (later translated to Rijeka) under the jurisdiction of Aquilea (at the time of the start of the not-EU5 timeline). The city of Rijeka (Fiume) and the city of Sušak were united in February 12th, 1948.

However, city of Fiume gained prominence only at the end of the not-EU5 timeline, and its rise from a backwater fishing village to the third largest port in Europe with the most advanced industry in Europe in its peak would be a part of the Victoria 3 timeline, not totally-not-EU5 timeline. The principal city of the area throughout the timeline of the not-EU5 was city of Kastav (Castua) - the administrative, cultural, religious, and industrial powerhouse of the are, and the free city of the HRE since 1400. At the start of the timeline of the not-EU5, Kastav was a part of demesne of counts of Duino (near modern-day Trieste), while it passed to the Habsburg possession in 1465 (where it stayed until Austria-Hungary was dissolved at the end of WW1.

At no point in history before the end of WW2 was city of Kastav and its demesne a part of the Croatia, as shown in your map.

This is important for modeling geopolitical tension and birth of the modern-era Austrian industry as that area was a hotspot between three regional powers - Republic of Venice, HRE, and Hungary (with its vassal - Croatia). City of Kastav with its ports in modern-day Volosko and Lovran (Laurana, Lauriana) was a main line that connected Habsburg demense (meaning, Vienna and the rest of the Archduchy to sea) and would later be crucial in supplying Croatian lands in their fights against Ottomans. Meanwhile, a city of Fiume (excluding Croatian-held Tarsatica fort) was a sort of "neutral" land where the trade between Venice, HRE, and Croatia would occur. The city of Fiume (exluding Tarsatica) was a city where Italian (of Veneto origin) population was a majority all the way to the Allied bombing of Rijeka and exodus of its inhabitants that fled Yugoslav "liberation" army.

 

[Pavía]

Just added a couple more pictures to the main post (full G&Gs situation view, and Dynasties), as they were very requested.

 

[matfer13]

Why is Como not in Como?

 

[Bonqurito]

I have for a long time had a particular fascination of the Dalmatian language and culture, and I would love for it to be properly represented.
So I thought I'd provide this spreadsheet with the place names of most of the major towns in the area.

Area

Modern name

Italian (In general)

Dalmatian

Istriot

Venetian

Hungarian

French

Arabic

Catalan

Slovene

German (In general)

Tuscan

Greek (Medieval, romanized)

Serbo-Croatian (in general)

Dalmatia (South)

Ulcinj

Dulcigno

Dalmatia (South)

Bar

Antivari

Dalmatia (South)

Budva

Budua

Dalmatia (South)

Kotor

Cattaro

Dalmatia (South)

Herceg Novi

Castelnuovo

Dalmatia (South)

Dubrovnik

Ragusa

Ragusa (Sometimes Raugia)

Dalmatia (South)

Ston

Stagno

Dalmatia (South)

Opuzen

Fort Opus

Dalmatia (South)

Ploče

Porto Tolero

South Dalmatian Islands

Korčula (Korčula)

Curzola (Curzola)

South Dalmatian Islands

Vela Luka (Korčula)

Vallegrande (Curzola)

South Dalmatian Islands

Hvar (Hvar)

Lesina (Lesina)

South Dalmatian Islands

Sućuraj (Hvar)

San Giorgio (Lesina)

South Dalmatian Islands

Stari Grad (Hvar)

Cittavecchia (Lesina)

South Dalmatian Islands

Sveti Petar (Brač)

San Pietro (Brazza)

South Dalmatian Islands

Milna (Brač)

Milnà (Brazza)

Dalmatia (North)

Makarska

Macarsca

Macharscha

Dalmatia (North)

Imotski

Imoschi

Dalmatia (North)

Omiš

Almissa

Dalmatia (North)

Split

Splato

Spalato

Dalmatia (North)

Solin

Salona

Dalmatia (North)

Klis

Clissa

Dalmatia (North)

Trilj

Treglia

Dalmatia (North)

Sinj

Signo

Dalmatia (North)

Trogir

Traù

Dalmatia (North)

Šibenik

Sebenico

Dalmatia (North)

Knin

Tenin

Tinin

Dalmatia (North)

Biograd na Moru

Zaravecchia

Dalmatia (North)

Benkovac

Bencovazzo

Dalmatia (North)

Novigrad

Cittanova

Dalmatia (North)

Zadar

Jadera

Zara (Jatara pre ~14th century)

Zára

Jadres

Jādhara

Sarra (Jazara or Jara pre ~14th century)

Giara

Dalmatia (North)

Pag

Pago

Croatian littoral

Karlobag

Carlopago

North Dalmatian Islands

Rab (Rab)

Arba (Arba)

Arbe (Arbe)

North Dalmatian Islands

Cres (Cres)

Crepsa (Crepsa)

Cherso (Cherso)

North Dalmatian Islands

Krk (Krk)

Vikla (Vikla)

Veglia (Veglia)

Croatian littoral

Senj

Segna

Croatian littoral

Crikvenica

Cirquenizza

Croatian littoral

Rijeka

Fluaim

Fiume

Fiume

Reka

Sankt Veit am Flaum

Istria

Opatija

Abbazia

Istria

Labin

Albona

Istria

Pazin

Pisino

Mitterburg

Istria

Medulin

Medolino

Istria

Pula

Puola

Pola

Póla

Pulj

Istria

Rovinj

Rovigno

Ruveîgno

Rygínion

Istria

Koper

Capodistria

Koper

Other than that I would like to see Istriot to be split off from Dalmatian, if they're to small of a group to be represented that's understandable however.
I also think there should be some salt in Istria, as the it provided much of the salt for the Venetians.


As far as locations go, I would like for Brazza to be called Brazza-Lesina instead.

The peninsula north of Ragusa called Pelješac / Sabbioncello was owned by Ragusa and not Venice at this time, though they were paying tribute to them.
I suggest splitting the islands of Curzola and Lissa from Slano, having Venice owning the former and Ragusa the latter. Either adding the them to Brazza or creating a new location.

 

[Mef]

Why is Como not in Como?

They were being attacked by Milan and after Como was taken, the ruling family fled to Bellinzona which was taken in 1340.
The Ruscas did continue to rule territory in the region as fiefdoms after that.

 

[Nico278]

That yellow location is Montefeltro, yes.

very nice

 

[HistoryBoyClub]

although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews

Italkim culture confirmed I am fuckin BOUNCIN

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Why the Como tag is owning Bellinzona (but not Como)? There is something I'm ignoring or is just WiP?

 

[Te. Kenzo]

1. Blue = Provençal
2. Purple = Gallo-Italic
3. Brown = Albanian
4. White = Greek

@Pavía If I can give my feedback, I noticed that the cultures of Italy since EUIV were updated from the infamous trio "Lombard\Umbrian\Sicilian" by using linguistic maps, for example this one:

This was a great update, and in project Caesar you did a great job by depicting also local languages\cultures like Arbereshe. I think it's great because those area have also a peculiar culture even if 100% integrated as Italians, as they still exist today

It's true that during the game timeframe the south doesn't have serious political divide based on cultural differences (the greatest one is Sicily\Palermo Vs Continental South\Naples, and it's already rapresentend). But is also true that the Kingdom of Naples sometimes look too much monolithic, with a strong and united population in many games that made it a super buffed powerhouse without flaws compared to other italian states.

I don't know the new game mechanics enough, but maybe Naples could be made more complex by rapresenting also the other different cultural areas of the south more in detail, to underline the distance from the capital in Naples to the other provinces. Maps like the one I posted before tell us that the dialects in the south are part of a family of lingustic ties, but they are more different than they appear on those maps. These regions have also clear peculiarities. For example, it's true that the south of calabria and the south of Apulia (Salento) have linguistic similarities to the Sicilian language, but no one ever considered them part of the insular sicilian identity.

Same can be said about the "Umbrian culture". Yes, it's true that there are linguistic ties between the tyrrenean and adriatic part of central italy, but it doesn't mean they share a cultural local identity.

Ideally:

Lazio (the provinces of San Pietro in Tuscia, Campagna e Marittima) should have their own culture (Call it Lazian or Roman)
Campania (the provinces of Terra di lavoro, Principato Citra and Principato Ultra) should have have their Naeapolitan (Campanian is another good name)
Abruzzo (abruzzo citra and abruzzo ultra) could have their "Abruzzese" culture, Apulia (Capitanata e Terra di Bari) could have their own Apulian culture too. It's difficult to say what could be the best way to depict Molise, maybe a Molisan culture would be too much, so it could be rapresented with a majority of Abruzzese pops with a minority of apulian ones.
Salento (Terra d'Otranto) could use a Salentine culture (today Salento is part of the region of Apulia, but it have it have a very distinct identity and in the past advocated to be a separate administrative region)
Calabria (Calabria Ultra e Calabria Citra) could use their own Calabrian culture (without depicting the lingustic ties of the southern tip with sicily)
Basilicata could use it's own "Lucan" culture

To better understand those differences I'm posting two maps of Italian dialects that are more detailed and doesn't stop just as grouping them with macro linguistic ties. This more detailed linguistic depictions rapresent better also the peculiarity of the south italian localism. Even if the Kingdom of Naples was politically united, a local sentiment (especially within the aristocracy) was still strong even in the south, and all the story of southern Italy was basically a fight of the kings to centralize against local regional lords (that in the game can be rapresented by aristocracy estate pops with their own regional culture!)