Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

[Mef]

Why the Como tag is owning Bellinzona (but not Como)? There is something I'm ignoring or is just WiP?

Literally explained 3 posts above yours.

 

[ResEuropea]

@Pavía apologies if this has already been covered, here are some small points of feedback for better localisation and one more speculative idea related to my culture suggestion.

• Dynasties: di Este -> d'Este
• Locations: Agrigento -> Girgenti (just like the province name you already have)
• Cultures: Calabria and Apulia around Lecce are shown as Sicilian; I understand culture will be closely linked with language and my suggestion below reflects that. I would differentiate what's now showing as Sicilian also by Calabrian and Salentino, and add a distinction between Neopolitan, Apulian, and Cosentian - this makes Naples less monolithic and could counterbalance its already strong start.
• 
  
• If that seems too granular, consider this:
  • The location density in Italy has already been discussed by others, so perhaps you could see if adding these cultures helps balance the location-to-culture ratio with other regions. It would make sense that Italy is less uniform than other regions.
  • Rennaissance - now, I don't how you intend to model the Rennaissance but having more cultures could help with historicity: Apart from Tusany only Campania (Naples) and Sicily were smaller centres; in reality, this had to do with the patronage happening at courts. However, with a more limited character and court environment than say ck3, simulating the Renaissance could be less immersive. Entire regions adopting the Renaissance lifestyle abruptly or uniformly would be boring.
  • Therefore, integrating a Renaissance mechanic that interacts with culture could enhance historical accuracy. By introducing additional cultures, the spread and impact of the Renaissance would be more believable, considering the relative inactivity in places like Calabria or Apulia. The extent to which a culture embraces the Renaissance could determine which buildings are unlocked, providing a more nuanced approach than simply limiting Renaissance benefits to capital cities. This could add depth to gameplay and strategy.
  • Maybe the era mechanic does the heavy lifting already so don't worry if this doesn't work at all with what you've planned, but it would also be cool if era transitions are themselves more thematic

 

[ResEuropea]

imo there are way to few Greeks in south italy and Sicily also albanians only arrived after ottoman conquest in the balkans

Yup, was just going to make that point too.

 

[Mingmung]

By the way, didn't the house of Luxemburg control the area around Belluno? Can somebody with more knowledge chime in on this?

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Literally explained 3 posts above yours.

Thank you. Tell me more, because I'm reading about this just now. Are you thinking that using the Como tag to depict this dynastic situation is the best choiche?

 

[Mef]

Thank you. Tell me more, because I'm reading about this just now. Are you thinking that using the Como tag to depict this dynastic situation is the best choiche?

I would say so, since the Rusca family is from Como and ruled over a lot of land there, but they lost to the Visconti, which is happening right as the game starts.
It was a big family that had important posts in many North Italian and Swiss cities and tried to get independence again around 1400.

One thing I just saw is that Locarno was only taken by Milan in 1342, 2 years after Bellinzona, so @Pavía maybe Como should own both Bellinzona and Locarno. The Visconti did take Como and Lugano in 1335.
It looks like all of this was given back to the Rusca family as fiefdom after the war. So maybe more like a vassalization war?

Also, shouldn't the Ruscas in Como be marked as Ghibellines? They aren't part of the struggle at all in the maps posted.

 

[meijiJPN]

Krstjani should really have another color to signify the meeting point between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, grey feels kinda out of place. Maybe a bright yellow or deep orange would fit better?

 

[TyziekCyziek]

Can we get some events with Fiore dei Liberi? This master of sword deserve the recognition for his work.

 

[Vispian]

Just some notes on Alum production with one map change for Italy and some for France

The Tolfa Alum mines in the Papal States (believe the location is Civitavecchia on the map), was arguably the most important Alum mine in Europe after the Ottomans blocked the Alum trade from the east. Its importance was so impressive that for 250 years (1462-1796) it was essential to the cloth and paper markets in Europe and the Pope even tried to create a cartel monopoly. Until colonialism eventually got Alum from Asia over, this was one of the main centres of Alum production in Europe and should be represented on the map.

I am happy to see the other Alum mines of Volterra, Agnano, Mazarran represented. Some others that should be included is
- Béjaïa in Algieria
- Phocaea where the Ottomans cut off supply
- oasis of Kawar in Sub-Sharan Africa
- Between Huy and Flemelle (Liege) in the low countries would also become a major production hub of which would supply all of the French needs for Alum. I know Liege is marble and I think it should remain if Huy is in another location that should produce Alum instead and if not then a province next to liege should represent this. huge production centre as well.

As stated above Tolfa and then later Liege was instrumental for European economies, so important that it caused a lot of concern in France as they had no major production of Alum until the later 19th C. The two production locations of Alum in south France should both be livestock. As Mauriac was entrenched in the cheese market and Millau was heavily specialised in leather production. The cloth markets of Normandy needed Alum and this lack of production in France imho is just as vital for French expansion into Italy, Lowlands and Colonial markets to secure their own or friendly access to Alum markets. It provides a driving gameplay for French expansion and for players in Italy or the Lowlands to deprive them of that. As was historically done.

Andrea Günster and Stephen Martin, 'A Holy Alliance: Collusion in the Renaissance Europe Alum Market', Review of Industrial Organization, 47 (2015), 1-23.
Sharon Farmer, 'Global and Gendered Perspectives on the Production of Parisian Alms Purse, c. 1340', Journal of Medieval Worlds, 1 (2019), 45-84 (pp. 73-74).
John U. Nef, A Comparison of Industrial Growth in France and England from 1540 to 1640: III', Journal of Political Economy, 44 (1936), 643-666 (pp. 653-654).
James L. Goldsmith, 'Agriculture Specialization and Stagnation in Early Modern Auvergne', Agriculture History, 73 (1973), 216-234.

 

[ChristmasLucas]

Rijeka was during the 14th century ownership of Herren von Duino (Lords of Duino) which were vassals of the Patriahate of Aquileia (PoA) and at the tail end of the 14th century became owenership of Herren von Walsee after the von Duino line had nobody to inherit. Rijeka as a location seems to be owned here (in your maps) by Croatia while in reality it was part of PoA.

Also Herren von Dunio owned all the coastline from Brseč to Rijeka. Brseč would be somewhere at the midpoint of the coastline of the Pazin location, in your maps it is shown as ownership of Gorz but it was owned by von Duino. These are very important details as the HRE border (and Charlemagne's empire) ended there on the west of river Rječina (which means big river, river = rijeka in Croatian), Rijeka was basically the last city (geographically) in the Empire.

 

[luigilime]

dearest @Pavía,

I hope I'm not too late to write down some corrections on the Friuli area, since I'm from there and also a History student I could be able to help.

First of all I'll start with the locations:
Though I understand the lower location density of the area, since it was less urbanised than the rest of Italy and less densily populated. I would suggest some corrections.

I would add some provinces and rename a few of them in order to be more accurate for 1337 (and also the entire timespan of the game)

1) GEMONA (GLEMONE in friulian), it was the gateway to the mountains and to the german markets, became very important between the 13th and 14th century as a commercial stop where you'd change tipe of wagon from the bigger one used in flat terrain travel to smaller wagons that can operate through the mountains.

2) UDINE (UDIN in friulian) became capital of the Patriarchate of Aquileia in 1238.

3) Either SACILE or keep PORDENONE (SACÎL or PORDENON in friulian), Pordenone wasn't a significant urban agglomeration until the 19th century that became prime real estate for cotton mills and became in some way the industrial capital of Friuli. Sacile, on the other hand, was very important in the 14th century since it was a fluvial harbour and ships would travel up the Livenza river to Sacile and then move to land carriages from there. (all of the main "harbours" of Friuli were very inland because most of the lower plains area was actually marshes, we'll come back to that later).

4) CONCORDIA or PORTOGRUARO ( CUNCUÀRDIA or PUART in friulian), the ancient roman city of Concordia was seat of a bishop that was under the Diocese of Aquileia. The bishop of Concordia, due to the marshy territory and the lack of maintenance of the roman drainage system, later moved upwards to Portogruaro and then to Pordenone where it sits now. The historical importance of the bishop of Concordia in the Patriarchate of Aquileia's politics makes it important as a location on the map. Another alternative name could be SAN VITO (SAN VÎT in friulian).

5) AQUILEIA (AQUILEE in standard friulian), historical capital of Friuli, I believe it should be moved more west to include the actual "Agro Aquileiese" which is the lower "triangle" of the friulian plains.

6) MONFALCONE or GRADISCA (MONFALCON or GARDISCJE in friulian), Monfalcone was a small harbour town in the 14th century, it became important only in the 20th century when the main naval yards tp build ships for the port of Trieste were located there. although this very late rise it still was a venetian exclave between 1517 and 1797 so I think it needs a separate location. the alternative is Gradisca that was an important venetian border fortification built to defend against the austrians and later was lost to the latter in 1618.

7) CIVIDALE (CIVIDÂL in friulian), the second historical capital of Friuli and the city that gave the name to the region (Forum Iulii -> Friuli)

the Yellow line I traced is what it should actually be the border of the Patriarchate of Aquileia. Cividale doesn't make sense to be under Verona, the nobles of the city were indeed at odds with the Patriarch on many occasions in the 13th and 14th century, especially since Patriarch Berthold moved the capital to Udine. I've also read that in 1336 the Della Scala family was ruling the city. However, the Patriarch of Aquileia at that time was Bertrand of Saint-Geniès, an energic Patriarch that after decades of crisis brought order in Friuli and made all rebellious nobles and cities reign in, including Cividale that was back under the Patriarch from 1339 at its latest. could make sense leaving it to Verona only if there is a possibility that it looses it very early to Aquileia.
The Valley of Tolmin has been part of the Patriarchate of Aquileia until 1421, then remained part of Venice until it was conquered by Austria in the war of the league of Cambrai. Austria gained also Aquileia in that war and that border stayed like that until 1797. Tolmin then in 1337 should be under Aquileia. The two carinthian locations on the other hand I believe were not part of the Patriarchate. Though historically the Diocese of Aquileia that later developed into the Patriarchate did include a big part of Carinthia and also a lot of the earlier Patriarchs were indeed carinthian nobles, by 1337 we can't say that Aquileia had direct control of that region.

This is a map of Aquileia in the 1250s, after a hundred years didn't change much. I'd also add that the count of Gorizia should be a "very rebellious subject" of Aquileia. The County of Friuli had a parliament where also the Count of Gorizia sat and held the title of "advocatus" of the Patriarch (could be considered as a sort of justice minister? maybe? a bit complicated ). Gorizia behaved like an independend country but it wasn't technically and Patriarch Betrand in that period was constantly at odds with Gorizia, even sieging the city in 1340.

Moving to Terrain:

Aquileia had been a city in decline throughout all of the Middle Ages, its population collapsed due to its marshy environment: roman dams and drainage systems fell into disrepair and the city became unliveable due to malaria. The Patriarch himself, even though de jure kept the capital in Aquileia and maintained its office in the Basilica of the city, he went to live in the castle of Cormons in the early middle ages, then moved to Cividale and in the end to Udine. With this in mind, the location of Aquileia cannot be anything else other than marsh.
The hypothetical location of Monfalcone could be either marsh, flatland or hills, I went here with flatland because the "Bisiacaria" area (the old capitanate of Monfalcone) is mainly flat and on the foothills of the Carso plateau. the coast though was marshy and Monfalcone's castle was on top of a hill.
Cividale should be hills, it is at the centre of the "collio" region, a hilly area famous for its wine. and it comprises of the high valley of the Natisone river that is very hilly.
The hypothetical location of Gemona also should be hilly, this area comprises of the prealpine region, the hills that stand at the base of the alpine mountain chain.

On vegetation: the area on the west of the Tagliamento river was nearly uninhabited. It is called the "Magredi" region and it is characterised by cobbly flat land that is very difficult to cultivate, so in the 14th century this area was mainly grasslands, very similar to the steppes. I would make the hypothetical new location of Sacile/Pordenone grasslands for this reason. I would keep farmlands in the hypothetical Concordia/Portogruaro location.
Gemona, Cividale and Trieste I would make woods, these were and still are forested areas with the exception maybe of Trieste that had the whole of the Carso Plateau deforested in the late Middle Ages. but that would make it more grasslands than farmlands. If you see Trieste now and how it should have been at the time you would find a very harsh terrain impossible to farm (slovenian communities on the plateau cultivated only some spots that were like craters where terrain collapsed into underground caves. this peculiar terrain was easier to cultivate).

Moving to cultures:

first of all venetian became very present in Friuli after the Venetian conquest that happened in 1421. Before that there was maybe some venetian presence in the west at the border with the Veneto area and some bourgeois population in the cities but nothing more. The central part of Friuli was predominantly friulian.
In Carnia there were historical german communities such as the one in Sauris, slovenians were more eastwards and northwards. In Carnia proper they weren't that present. things change in the Gemona location that includes the Resia valley famous for its residents that speak a unique slavic language.
I've put Gorizia a sizeable friulian minority because the western part of the location and the city of Gorizia itself had a predominantly friulian population at the time.
In Monfalcone I've put a friulian majority with a sizeable slovenian minority. Monfalcone and the Bisiacaria area now speak mainly venetian but this change happened during the venetian domination, not before. Also Trieste (even though now speaks a dialect of venetian and doesn't want to be associated with Friuli) spoke tergestine at the time, a rhaeto-romance language similar to western friulian, became extinct only in the early 19th century. So it would be more accurate to have Trieste with a friulian majority and a sizeable slovenian minority.

At last let's talk about the raw goods:

Friuli is famous for its Wine, so we have to have some locations with wine as a raw good. I think it's best that Cividale has wine, because of the "Collio" wine region, and changed Aquileia to wine because of its importance in the region.
As I said before, I can't immagine farmland in Trieste so wheat doesn't make sense. Trieste before becoming the main tradeport of Austria had a lot of Saltworks outside the city walls so I believe salt is a better raw good there. livestock in Gemona and Spilimbergo makes sense, the mountains had a lot of pastures and the "Magredi" region isn't arable.
I've put lumber in Sacile/Pordenone because between Friuli and Veneto, right in the spot where this location is placed, there is the famous forest of the Cansiglio where most of the wood used to build ships in Venice came from.
Friuli as I already said was very difficult to cultivate, the southern part of the plains area was marshy and had too much water, the other half didn't have any water because the gravelous terrain made water go underground, even river beds don't have water usually. This situation made Wheat and Wine valuable commodities because they were the only products that helped you make money, in the Middle ages farmers mostly growed various cheap grains, and wheat was for baking bread for the nobles, Maize made here an agricultural revolution in the 16th century, giving peasants a more nutritious type of cereal to eat. This is the reason I've put some sturdy grains in Concordia/Portogruaro and I'd suggest to add some even elsewhere. I left wheat in Udine and put it in Monfalcone, but Udine could be also Wine (even though it would mean that there would a lot of wine in this area of the map), and Monfalcone could be also fish.

When I studied the history of Friuli I used "Storia della società friulana. Il Medioevo" ("History of friulian society. The Middle Ages) by Paolo Cammarosano, Flavia De Vitt and Donata Degrassi. it's in italian, I don't think there is a translation in english unfortunately.

Hope this was useful, looking forward to the next tinto maps.

 

[TheDwarvenGuy2]

There should be a source of sand near Venice, as the Venetians were world leaders in glass production and made extremely high quality glass by grinding down quartz pebbles from the Adige river. It's hard to understate how valuable glass was and how far advanced Venice was in this field in the late middle ages and early modern period, being the main producers of clear glass, mirrors, chandeliers, and beads that were used as trade goods the world over.

 

[koba.apota]

you should put arctic climate on the alps!!!

 

[Pilum2211]

In the Trentino region people are quite proud of the connection with the Germanic world, but this influence is not considered relevant before the Austrian arrived.
Before that, the Germans in the surroundings and south of Trento were only some merchants in the city and the Knapfen, a small minority that was moved there from Bohemia for silver extraction.
When Trentino was annexed to Italy the overwhelming majority of the population was Italian speaking, an Italianization during the 18 century is unlikely since should have happened when the Austrians were ruling the land. Out of the Adige valley the villages are extremely isolated with mostly self sufficient communities, it is therefore at least weird that these communities didn't keep at least a Germanic dialect but instead an Italian one

In the Trentino region people are quite proud of the connection with the Germanic world, but this influence is not considered relevant before the Austrian arrived.
Before that, the Germans in the surroundings and south of Trento were only some merchants in the city and the Knapfen, a small minority that was moved there from Bohemia for silver extraction.
When Trentino was annexed to Italy the overwhelming majority of the population was Italian speaking, an Italianization during the 18 century is unlikely since should have happened when the Austrians were ruling the land. Out of the Adige valley the villages are extremely isolated with mostly self sufficient communities, it is therefore at least weird that these communities didn't keep at least a Germanic dialect but instead an Italian on

From what I have seen and read by now the narrative is that:

The rural area was settled with Germans and Ladins after the Migration period. Rulership of course though remaining under the Bishophric of Trento with the city itself being mainly Italian.
The Renaissance began a rise of Italian Culture which would also slowly affect the region as well as the Reformation where the Italian Catholic Clergy tried to reduce the influence of the German Language due to Protestant Rethoric mostly stemming from the German Regions.
This would continue the slow Italianization and during the Napoleonic Wars many poorer Italian People would start moving into the richer Trentino area once more changing the Cultural demographic far more towards Italian.

Now of course this does not have to be true but there are definetly sources claiming and supporting this.

Your argument also does not line up regarding the unlikelihood of assimilation due to isolation but the same argument would ring true with the Ladins which have undoubtedly seen a massive decline in all these centuries.


In the end this isn't a hill I am willing to die on. But I think there should be some relatively foolproof ways of confirming this. Namely checking old babtismal records and gravesites. Though I guess many of those may have been lost to time.

 

[Boomsah27]

Venice is an odd situation real-area size to in-game representation, but I feel they deserve the abstraction to their own island.

Venice existed for over 1000 years until Napoleon himself knocked them over, and that's in no small part thanks to the protection of the lagoon and the fact that the city was for all intents and purposes an island that was un-siegeable without a naval force to land troops in the city. I feel it's worthy enough to at least be disconnected from the mainland where Venice can protect itself with a navy from army incursions.

 

[Booperboberino]

Rome produces wheat..?

 

[nembo22]

Some additional observations about the type of terrain, sorry if this was already pointed out. For what I know two major marsh areas, plus one, are missing. One is the historical Maremma (mentioned by Dante too) between Viterbo and Livorno, that was reclaimed in the XIX century, and the Pontine marshes between Anzio and Terracina, reclaimed during fascism. For the first one Grosseto could be set as marsh, while for the second one Terracina.

Additionally also Oristano may be set as marsh, these lands were also reclaimed during fascism.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

From what I have seen and read by now the narrative is that:

The rural area was settled with Germans and Ladins after the Migration period. Rulership of course though remaining under the Bishophric of Trento with the city itself being mainly Italian.
The Renaissance began a rise of Italian Culture which would also slowly affect the region as well as the Reformation where the Italian Catholic Clergy tried to reduce the influence of the German Language due to Protestant Rethoric mostly stemming from the German Regions.
This would continue the slow Italianization and during the Napoleonic Wars many poorer Italian People would start moving into the richer Trentino area once more changing the Cultural demographic far more towards Italian.

Thing is, that I've read all this stuff long ago, mostly in German speaking literature from the beginning 20th century, which interestingly mentions the Italian immigration in the 18th century, but does not mention the German Immigration at all; the Vinschgau, for example, was mostl Ladin until the 18th century.

The map you have posted is from 1908, and as such from a time period which was heavily influenced by political intentions. It's also quite easily to defeat the argument in the map when looking at the church registers of the 16th century - the Val di Non/Val di Sole only contains italian names, but Wilhelm Romeder, the author of the map, just claims they were all Ladin or German. In particular, the upper parts of the valley were already speaking a Lombard dialect in the Late Middle Ages. I have reserached documents from Pellizzano and Ossana in that area, and the names mentioned in that region in the 15th and 16th century are clearly not German, whereas Romeder claims that the Val di Sole was "more than 50 percent Ladin and the rest German".

So, let's have a look at the inventory of one of the parishes in the region: Pellizzano. Pellizzano is a parish in the Val di Sole and right next to Malé (which Romeder calls "Maleit"). The parishes of the valley form a community, therefore we don't only have names from Pellizzano, but also from Malé and others. Please note: Romeder pretends that Malé should have a population of more than 50 per cent Ladins and the rest Germans, so we should see Ladin names and also some German names.

As I worked with the documents of the area, I can link to the inventory, which defeats Romeders assumptions.

The original document is in Latin, but the names speak for themselves: they are mostly romance, many even more Italian than Ladin - we see people like Pissolla, Bontempi, Gallina, Tocci etc., which clearly suggest an italianized presence in that area way before the 18th century (in this case: 15th century). We hardly encounter any germanic surname. In fcat, we don't even encounter any Ladin name (like suggested), but italian ones.

Let's have a look at Malé itself.

Here we encounter some Ladin names, like suspected: Bonadiman, Quitta, Cliod, Zonn and Magras, also some "Italian" ones like Tononi, Bevilacqua and Zanetti from locals, but we hardly find any germanic names again (with the exception of Visintainer, who is a "notaio" of the bishop of Trent).

Next thing: the German WIkipedia mentions Wurzer. Wurzer is not of scientific relevance.* In the book which is cited on WIkipedia, he even claims that Trent was "mostly German" until the 18th century, or had a very big German minority (which can't be taken seriously looking at the numbers I mentioned in my last post) In this case - like in others - his source is Stefan Schindele (Reste deutschen Volkstumes südlich der Alpen). Schindele also claims that German was spoken all the way down the Adige to Villafranca di Verona. It's based on the old theory that the german language islands in the Dolomites are parts of an old language continuum, when in fact the "Zimbern" transferred to trentine and veronese lands in the Middle Ages. To make things worse, Schindele is considered a propagandist: Michael Wedekind calls his work "very nationalistic" (scharf nationalistisch); he also exagerated the number of "Germanic" people in this area even in his own time. In 1901, only 3,000 people in the "7 Communities" spoke Cimbrian, whereas Schindele claims roughly 6,000-8,000 people spoke this South Bavarian dialect, when he published his book in 1904.

By the way: Schindele's argument that italian priests "Italianized" the Trentino can hardly be taken seriously, when the article (I linked in my last post) clearly states that there were still German priests for the Germans in the 18th century in the German quarter of Trent. Why would the bishop change the German priests in the rural lands, but tolerate them only some streets away? Also, there is no proof that even in theory a change from German priests to Italian priest would have an effect on the language spoken in an area. How would people in the periphery learn the language at all? Because they want to understand the preacher (because the rest of the mass is in latin)? The preacher adopts the language of the people to preach, it's not the other way around and it certainly would not help to "convert" the rural people to their language or culture.

__________
*Wurzer's book has not a scientific approach, and the theory mentioned above is not his own, but from another author.

 

[YesItsEnzo]

Would you be able to change the colour of water on the market/trade map from black to maybe a light blue or a gray?

 

[Cooleatack]

Ok so I'm not quite sure if this has already been confirmed or not, but i assume there is already support for a country having either a flag (as shown here) or a coat of arms (as shown in the last TT), depending on the tag. So there is already precedent for the overarching category of "national symbols" (idk what else to call them) having different shapes. So would it be possible to implement things like fringes for example, like the Venetian flag had them? Or different shapes for coats of arms? If we have already thrown out the rigidity of flags/CoAs in games like EU4 or Victoria 3 i don't see why you couldn't further diversify them for the sake of flavor.

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