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Economy 2.0 Dev Diary #2

Welcome back to the second dev diary detailing the changes coming in the next patch. If you missed it, check out the first part here. Today we are covering a few important changes not directly related to the economy and we’ll go over what you can expect when loading up your existing cities.

Let’s start with Rent. Most likely you have run into complaints of “High Rent” in the game, so let’s talk about it. To complement the Land Value changes in patch 1.1.0f1 in March, we have tweaked how Rent works. First of all, we removed the virtual landlord so a building’s upkeep is now paid equally by all renters. Second, we changed the way rent is calculated. For those interested, the calculation looks like this:

Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier

This of course affects the “High Rent” notifications you may have encountered, but we’ve tweaked those directly as well, so they are now based on the household’s income. That means that even if they currently don’t have enough money in their balance to pay rent, they won’t complain and will instead spend less money on resource consumption. Only when their income is too low to be able to pay rent will they complain about “High Rent” and look for cheaper housing or move out of the city.

Besides rent, households and companies need to pay for the building’s upkeep, which in turn affects the level of the building. When they pay the full upkeep fee, the building condition increases by a constant amount until the building levels up and the tenants start paying towards the next level. Similarly, if they cannot pay it, the building condition decreases by the same amount until it’s in such poor condition it collapses.

BUILDING UPGRADES UNLEASHED
From zoned buildings automatically leveling up to the City Service building upgrades you choose and place manually. While this update doesn’t directly relate to the Economy 2.0, it shares the same patch and deserves a little spotlight. Gone are the days when you had to bulldoze the entire building to remove, or just move, an upgrade. Now, all upgrades can be removed by selecting the building, finding the upgrade in the Selected Info Panel, and clicking the bin icon.

Sub-buildings.png

Deactivate or delete Extensions or relocate Sub-buildings through the Selected Info Panel

For sub-buildings, there’s even more control. They can also be removed using the bulldozer, you can pick them up and move them, or turn them on and off as needed. Moving them is particularly handy now as they don’t have to be placed in connection to the main building. As long as they are within the predefined radius and have pedestrian and/or road access, they will work like before. Sub-buildings like the Elementary School Playground just need a pedestrian path connecting them to the rest of the city, while sub-buildings like the Bus Depot Extra Garage will need road access to function. We’re excited to see how you take advantage of this new freedom in your cities, so don’t hesitate to tag us on social media if you’re showing off screenshots.


EXISTING CITIES
Now you might wonder how all of this affects your existing cities, so let’s get the most obvious question out of the way first. Saves from before the economy rework still work, though we expect they will have a transition period as the simulation adapts to the changes. When it comes to modded saves, we can’t make any guarantees, but keep an eye out for updates or instructions from the modders. Mods that affect the simulation are likely to be affected by the update.

When you load up your city (and unpause) there are a few things you should keep in mind. With Government Subsidies removed and City Service upkeep increased, the cost of running your city just increased. If your city relies on ambulances, hearses, fire engines, police cars, and garbage trucks coming from Outside Connection, make sure to enable the Import City Services policy in the City Information panel, but don’t forget that your neighbors charge a fee to help you out. All this is expected to create a negative money trend, but depending on your city’s finances, your tax income might be enough to offset the new costs once the calculations catch up. If you’re struggling for money, don’t forget that you can increase taxes, reduce service budgets, or temporarily turn buildings off to save on their upkeep cost.

Demand adjusts quite quickly, so don’t be alarmed if some of your demand bars empty or fill up when you start playing. With the increase in industrial manufacturing space, your industry will be on a hiring spree that’s likely to drive up your residential demand - unless your city has workers already looking for a job. We recommend giving it some time though as companies (commercial, industrial, and office) readjust their production and employee numbers to be profitable, which we expect will overall lead to an increase in unemployment in your city.

With the new calculations for residential density demand, your citizens may also start looking for different types of housing or move around the city. Thankfully, the new calculations for rent and resource consumption should help them afford the type of housing they prefer, and we expect most (if not all) of your “High Rent” notifications will disappear after letting the simulation run for a while. If you keep seeing these or they start to come back, then make sure to check your unemployment and provide citizens with jobs so that they can pay their rent.

With time and some tweaks, your existing cities should adjust to the changes, so you can get back to realizing their full potential. And as always, don’t hesitate to ask for help if you encounter any situations you’re unsure of how to handle and report any bugs you might run into here.


WHAT’S NEXT?
Before we finish for today, we’d like to share our plans going forward. We will of course follow discussions and read feedback you share as you play with these changes. We’ve done extensive testing to get the changes as balanced as possible, but we know that some tweaking will likely still be necessary once you all start sharing your experiences.

We’ve already started work on the next major patch which we hope to have ready for you in Q3, and we want to give you a little sneak peek at what you can expect. As previously mentioned, we want to expand the service import to bring you more control. We’re also looking at what we can improve in the UI and how the game relays information to you, so you have everything you need to solve issues in the game. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Are there any issues you’ve struggled to solve in your city? Any information you have been looking for but weren’t able to find?

Last, but definitely not least, the art team has been cooking up some new free buildings for you all. We appreciate each and every one of you for sticking with us and giving us a chance to make Cities: Skylines II what it can and should be. Your patience and support mean the world to us and we hope the new service buildings and vehicles can serve as a token of our appreciation. Thank you for being a part of our community!

NewStuff.png

A sneak peek at some of the new service buildings and vehicles you can look forward to
 
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So not saying the nicest thing possible is toxic?

Would you say false advertising and ripping off your customers is toxic?

It's cool to have your opinion, but don't state it as if it's a fact.
Claiming the company has engaged in false advertising soinds a lot like presenting an opinion as fact. It's also defamatory... arguably another example of ridiculous toxicity.
 
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Something I would like to see is a way to keep my roads, tracks, bridges, and paths at the elevation I intended instead of having them dip and bulge weirdly between nodes. That little dip the paths do before joining to the roads is so irritating to me. I spend much more time trying to make it look right than I do placing them in the first place. I know that the connections to the roads are procedurally generated, but could we have the connecting bit default to being level with the sidewalk instead of the surface of the terrain.

Could we have a smooth slope option so that my train tracks don't look like they are built for roller coasters? Or at least have an option to toggle snap-to-terrain on and off? It is aggravating to try to have a road go overground and wind up digging a tunnel (or worse, a trench), and it is equally maddening to try to connect two points with a straight tunnel and have it shoot halfway up the mountainside before it starts digging through. And since I'm in a rant apparently, can we have the option to turn retaining wall formation off? I want them when I'm constructing a mountain road; I don't want them when I'm trying to dig a tunnel instead. I want the ability to stop the game from assuming it knows what I want and make it listen to what I actually want.

And also something I really want? Stop signs. Yield signs. Signs that give one road priority over another. Traffic lights that have a cycle for traffic-crossing turns. Right now, all the cims are bad drivers with no concept of picking a lane. Since it might take major surgery to get that detail fixed, I'd at the very least like to have the tools to force them to behave at important junctions. Especially when I am building large roundabouts, slip lanes, and fancy intersections.

I know this isn't going to happen overnight, especially over the summer because you live in a civilized country with strong worker rights and protections, but maybe as a December present? Wrapped in a bow next to a shiny new asset builder and a bunch of bicycles?
 
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These dev diaries are really devoid of content.

They dont explain much, have lots of filler words.

A dev diary is traditionally a technical person explaining the challenges and solutions in detail.

Instead we got a PR person who gives us a word soup which really at its heart is a few points.

Economy 2.0 Dev Diary 2 bullet points

1. we removed the virtual landlord so a building’s upkeep is now paid equally by all renters.

2. we changed the way rent is calculated. Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier

3. This of course affects the “High Rent” notifications you may have encountered, but we’ve tweaked those directly as well, so they are now based on the household’s income.

4. Service building upgrades you choose and place manually within a radius. You can individually move, delete or turn them off.

5. Existing save shock

6. next major patch sneak peak in Q3 2024. Import service controls, UI improvements to show you info to help you solve issues.

7. New free building assets, like a water tower and small recycling center.

Thata not much to be excited by, after a 3 month wait since the last major patch
 
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It's been mentioned a few times already, but I'll repeat it again for emphasis because CS2 is missing arguably the most important info tool from CS1:

Please bring back the route visualizer. If I click on a road segment with a bunch of traffic on it, I want to know where those drivers are coming from and where they are headed so I can look for gaps in my public transportation network. You can get this info if you pause the game, but it requires manually clicking every single car, then the location icon to figure out where the origin is, then again for the destination, and then trying to keep that in memory while you look at the other forty cars in the section. It would be way more helpful for the game to visualize all that for me, especially when I get bottlenecks in unexpected places.

Also, I'd like if it we could adjust the zone colors a bit. Residential has six different types, but some of the shades of green are similar to one another (row housing vs medium housing in particular) and the icons themselves are hard to distinguish as well. This is less of an issue when buildings are built, but when looking at zoned roads that don't have construction yet, it can be a struggle to tell them apart. I don't have the same issue with commercial, industrial, or office zones.
 
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That edit right there, with all due respect, is NOT a good idea
We can happily disagree. I'd love to see more building models in the game and this is easy way to get them. When you have for example a row house or an apartment building, it doesn't get rebuilt again to same size. It's quality might be improved like better windors, painted, new roof, yard improvements etc. That's where the extra money goes in real life, so doing the same in game would make a lot of sense to me.

What's the point of making 30 buildings and eventually only see 6 of them? Why not randomize and allow all 30 being visible always?
 
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Alright, let's remember to remain constructive and respectful to each other when posting. I don't care whether you support us or dislike us, you don't get to insult your fellow forum posters just because they have a different view of things. You're better than this! Be kind to each other. <3

And now to some questions. ^^
Will this solve high density residentials and commercials not leveling up? My city has 200k citizens. I haven't seen a single high density commercial or residential at level 5 (which are required for signature buildings)
Also will this solve mass high res abandonment? It's been reported with saves attached.

The problem I see here is that the buildings very often take the largest plot possible, resulting in long rows of identical houses, as there's rarely more than one model per plot size. Chance for smaller house built for - say, less wealthy family - on a larger available land is nonexistent. Especially problematic if building on a grid, the american way.

Also, any plans for traffic tweaks, especially the illegal moves in the foreseeable future? The things I've seen... Most of the traffic jams I see come from cars deciding to make a random u turn into already stationary traffic, blocking everything behind them and the nearest intersection or five. The values for illegal turns are way too high.
It should give your buildings a fighting chance to level all the way up. It may still take time depending on how the households and companies are doing, but if you continue to have buildings "stuck" at a lower level, please let us know so we can look into it.

As for traffic, it's a wish I see come up regularly, but I can't make any promises at this time. We'll have to look into what is possible and when we can dedicate resources to it.

Is FSR included in this patch? I'd love to have feature parity with Nvidia owners
:)
Not this time around but it's being worked on.

This all looks great. I'm especially excited about the expansion buildings being detached from the main building. Also the economy changes are most welcome. Have you fixed the issue where taxes go bonkers and income goes nuts? That bug is really annoying.
Yes, no more randomly high taxes. That issue has been fixed in the patch.

Please, can you help me to better understand this? So does it mean that if household has barely to pay a rent, it won't buy any resources? So - for example - I could have a poor city where people can just pay rent without any more money to spend on resources so there wouldn't be any commercial demand... Or does a household have some minimum demand for resources which it requires? So it actually has to have money at least for the rent and this bare minimum of resources...?

Anyway, I appreciate your work on these updates - seems like a step to the right direction to me :)
A household will stop buying resources to pay their rent so they can keep their home. If they continue to struggle to make rent and buy resources, they will complain about high rent and look for cheaper housing or move out of the city. So it's less of a permanent state and more of a means to survive a potential rough patch.
 
A household will stop buying resources to pay their rent so they can keep their home. If they continue to struggle to make rent and buy resources, they will complain about high rent and look for cheaper housing or move out of the city. So it's less of a permanent state and more of a means to survive a potential rough patch.
I hope you have got your balancing right.

It sounds pretty much like you can easily starve your city economically. The formula Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier literally means that with each improvement in terms of services, attractivity and so on the rent of any given residence in the affected area will increase, in turn limiting the available money for consumption more and more.
That sounds like the perfect recipe for a death spirale in which you are first smothering your cims and in the second step your economy.
 
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I hope you have got your balancing right.

It sounds pretty much like you can easily starve your city economically. The formula Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier literally means that with each improvement in terms of services, attractivity and so on the rent of any given residence in the affected area will increase, in turn limiting the available money for consumption more and more.
That sounds like the perfect recipe for a death spirale in which you are first smothering your cims and in the second step your economy.
I think you're on to something, but I don't think it's the simulation. I think it's the actual economy of the world we live in.

If the rent goes up, people will consume less which, in turn, creates less jobs (and lower paying ones). Prices increase because rent increases, but the demand is still low and no jobs are available... and so on and so forth.
And then the bubble bursts and you get thousands unemployed, entire neighbourhoods abandoned and business going bankrupt.
The whole economy is in a rut and it will take years of subsidies and planning to get back to a functioning economy with less people less ambitious zoning or planning...

I really want to see that in my city if I don't intervene :D
 
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I hope you have got your balancing right.

It sounds pretty much like you can easily starve your city economically. The formula Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier literally means that with each improvement in terms of services, attractivity and so on the rent of any given residence in the affected area will increase, in turn limiting the available money for consumption more and more.
That sounds like the perfect recipe for a death spirale in which you are first smothering your cims and in the second step your economy.
This is exactly how the economy in the game SHOULD work! The areas in your city that are more attractive should also have higher rent, and it should be the job of the player to find the right balance between necessary services, cost of living, and cultivating education and employment opportunities so cims can afford the cost.
 
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I hope you have got your balancing right.

It sounds pretty much like you can easily starve your city economically. The formula Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier literally means that with each improvement in terms of services, attractivity and so on the rent of any given residence in the affected area will increase, in turn limiting the available money for consumption more and more.
That sounds like the perfect recipe for a death spirale in which you are first smothering your cims and in the second step your economy.
Yes, welcome to real life. Areas with better services and more attractive environments have higher demand, and so have higher rents which yes can lock out lower income people from living there. And if it gets bad enough without higher paying jobs to compensate, it can squeeze even middle income households to a point where they have to cut back on disposable spending to be able to afford rent and basic needs. This is realistic and happens in a lot of places.

I've seen a lot of times in these forums one of the rather basic misconceptions a lot of people seem to have when playing, which is that you should be aiming to provide all the best quality and coverage of services to all your citizens all the time, as soon as the service becomes available. But the thing is that just creates high living desirability therefore demand, and therefore high rent everywhere in the city thus pricing people out of living anywhere in your city. The reality is you don't need to be providing the best service to everyone and often especially for a smaller city with little workplace or welfare infrastructure in place to support it, it's not a desirable thing to do. So people just plop services down everywhere right away and make their city so desirable everywhere that it can't support the income levels of the people working there and then wonder why everyone is complaining about rent being high.
 
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The serious thing, yet another, is that apparently there is not even the certainty that the patch will be released by the set date, in addition to the fact that it's not known, at least for now, what real improvements we can objectively benefit during the game mouse and keyboard in hand.


Furthermore, I don't see the real reason why the possible release of MOD assets is always talked about "MAYBE" for Q3, thus postponing it to the infamous summer holidays for 1 month. There's something that doesn't add up to me, it seems as if there was a pre-set schedule...As far as I know, a bug can be solved even tonight, like the extraordinary one that afflicts CS2, and therefore consequently if it is resolved in short can be published what we should have already 8 months ago.


Furthermore, I don't see why we couldn't have at least the promised content creator packs included with the patch and which instead won't be released together with the patch.


Furthermore, when can we have animations of firefighters, doctors with stretchers, people playing on sports fields?





Sorry if I have these legitimate doubts, but unfortunately I think and reflect...
 
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Hi, this are great news. I've some question/suggestion about the transport aspects of the games.

The first ones is if the following station buildings will be added in the future:
- smaller bus terminals
- smaller train stations and an elevated and underground version
- elevated metro stations (if they could also be built over roads it would be fantastic!)

The last ones are about the road upgrade system, in a future uptade the following feature will be introduced?
- possibility to swap the parking along the road for addition vehicular or transit only lanes;
- having the possibility to have asymmetric avenues with medians;
- the bridge style dependent only on the road with and not its type (for example having the same bridge style both for the 2-way 2lane road and fot the one way two lane road).
 
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Hi Avanya,

Thank you for the progress update in this dev diary, you guys are doing some promising work in terms of gameplay and simulation. I have maybe more of an abstract question, but you mention that when a building “levels down” it simply gets abandoned and collapses. Why not instead have the building actually level down so that its rent decreases again and it settles into some intermediate wealth level. It seems that building level is attempting to model different wealth/social class levels, but the discussion seems to be on trying to get every building to level 5 (high-class). I can imagine a situation in the game where a building levels up, tenants can no longer pay rent, the building gets abandoned and collapses, and a new building takes its place, rinse and repeat. It would make more sense it seems for a building to reach some steady-state at some intermediate level so that it houses an appropriate wealth class of cim. In real life of course, not every house is a mansion and not every high rise is luxury apartments, so it would make sense for there to be a multitude of different level buildings in your city.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Looking forward to playing the new update!
 
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I hope you have got your balancing right.

It sounds pretty much like you can easily starve your city economically. The formula Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier literally means that with each improvement in terms of services, attractivity and so on the rent of any given residence in the affected area will increase, in turn limiting the available money for consumption more and more.
That sounds like the perfect recipe for a death spirale in which you are first smothering your cims and in the second step your economy.
This description actually sounds very much like real life. Doesn't the game allot wage increases to workers as their education level improves and their employers level up and become more profitable? I understand the question you're raising but I'd like to see this run in the simulation.
 
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Hi Avanya,

Thank you for the progress update in this dev diary, you guys are doing some promising work in terms of gameplay and simulation. I have maybe more of an abstract question, but you mention that when a building “levels down” it simply gets abandoned and collapses. Why not instead have the building actually level down so that its rent decreases again and it settles into some intermediate wealth level. It seems that building level is attempting to model different wealth/social class levels, but the discussion seems to be on trying to get every building to level 5 (high-class). I can imagine a situation in the game where a building levels up, tenants can no longer pay rent, the building gets abandoned and collapses, and a new building takes its place, rinse and repeat. It would make more sense it seems for a building to reach some steady-state at some intermediate level so that it houses an appropriate wealth class of cim. In real life of course, not every house is a mansion and not every high rise is luxury apartments, so it would make sense for there to be a multitude of different level buildings in your city.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Looking forward to playing the new update!
This is interesting... I've been modeling ad hoc the process you explain in a current build... If specific buildings in my neighborhoods collapse, I've been zoning lower density/types and smaller footprints until the zoned building remains sustainable and stops abandoning. Basically your idea automates what I'm doing manually.

@coavanya This also reminds me that we lost the history building designation. In CS1 we could limit upgrades to particular edifices, although the building would continue to increase in land value.
 
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The serious thing, yet another, is that apparently there is not even the certainty that the patch will be released by the set date, in addition to the fact that it's not known, at least for now, what real improvements we can objectively benefit during the game mouse and keyboard in hand.


Furthermore, I don't see the real reason why the possible release of MOD assets is always talked about "MAYBE" for Q3, thus postponing it to the infamous summer holidays for 1 month. There's something that doesn't add up to me, it seems as if there was a pre-set schedule...As far as I know, a bug can be solved even tonight, like the extraordinary one that afflicts CS2, and therefore consequently if it is resolved in short can be published what we should have already 8 months ago.


Furthermore, I don't see why we couldn't have at least the promised content creator packs included with the patch and which instead won't be released together with the patch.


Furthermore, when can we have animations of firefighters, doctors with stretchers, people playing on sports fields?





Sorry if I have these legitimate doubts, but unfortunately I think and reflect...
I don't disagree with your concerns, but it seems to me that prioritizing the economy patch was really about winning back the majority of the audience that has abandoned the game. I pre-paid... I'm enjoying the game (700+ hours at this point). I'd like to receive the promised content--but if they don't re-earn the trust of their audience the risk is very real that the game will be dead in the water and we'll see nothing... ever again. I'd prefer they prioritize what's essential to maintain a viable business model for the game.
 
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Yes, welcome to real life. Areas with better services and more attractive environments have higher demand, and so have higher rents which yes can lock out lower income people from living there. And if it gets bad enough without higher paying jobs to compensate, it can squeeze even middle income households to a point where they have to cut back on disposable spending to be able to afford rent and basic needs. This is realistic and happens in a lot of places.

I've seen a lot of times in these forums one of the rather basic misconceptions a lot of people seem to have when playing, which is that you should be aiming to provide all the best quality and coverage of services to all your citizens all the time, as soon as the service becomes available. But the thing is that just creates high living desirability therefore demand, and therefore high rent everywhere in the city thus pricing people out of living anywhere in your city. The reality is you don't need to be providing the best service to everyone and often especially for a smaller city with little workplace or welfare infrastructure in place to support it, it's not a desirable thing to do. So people just plop services down everywhere right away and make their city so desirable everywhere that it can't support the income levels of the people working there and then wonder why everyone is complaining about rent being high.
Wholeheartedly agree... the play to win mentality translates into a pursuit of utopia in-game. I'd prefer to play an economic simulation that attempts to model real life economic decision-making. Choices in real life involve trade-offs and opportunity costs. For all the flaws this upcoming patch will (hopefully) fix, it seems to me this was the underlying goal in CS2's economic simulation.
 
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