• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Economy 2.0 Dev Diary #2

Welcome back to the second dev diary detailing the changes coming in the next patch. If you missed it, check out the first part here. Today we are covering a few important changes not directly related to the economy and we’ll go over what you can expect when loading up your existing cities.

Let’s start with Rent. Most likely you have run into complaints of “High Rent” in the game, so let’s talk about it. To complement the Land Value changes in patch 1.1.0f1 in March, we have tweaked how Rent works. First of all, we removed the virtual landlord so a building’s upkeep is now paid equally by all renters. Second, we changed the way rent is calculated. For those interested, the calculation looks like this:

Rent = (LandValue + (ZoneType * Building Level)) * LotSize * SpaceMultiplier

This of course affects the “High Rent” notifications you may have encountered, but we’ve tweaked those directly as well, so they are now based on the household’s income. That means that even if they currently don’t have enough money in their balance to pay rent, they won’t complain and will instead spend less money on resource consumption. Only when their income is too low to be able to pay rent will they complain about “High Rent” and look for cheaper housing or move out of the city.

Besides rent, households and companies need to pay for the building’s upkeep, which in turn affects the level of the building. When they pay the full upkeep fee, the building condition increases by a constant amount until the building levels up and the tenants start paying towards the next level. Similarly, if they cannot pay it, the building condition decreases by the same amount until it’s in such poor condition it collapses.

BUILDING UPGRADES UNLEASHED
From zoned buildings automatically leveling up to the City Service building upgrades you choose and place manually. While this update doesn’t directly relate to the Economy 2.0, it shares the same patch and deserves a little spotlight. Gone are the days when you had to bulldoze the entire building to remove, or just move, an upgrade. Now, all upgrades can be removed by selecting the building, finding the upgrade in the Selected Info Panel, and clicking the bin icon.

Sub-buildings.png

Deactivate or delete Extensions or relocate Sub-buildings through the Selected Info Panel

For sub-buildings, there’s even more control. They can also be removed using the bulldozer, you can pick them up and move them, or turn them on and off as needed. Moving them is particularly handy now as they don’t have to be placed in connection to the main building. As long as they are within the predefined radius and have pedestrian and/or road access, they will work like before. Sub-buildings like the Elementary School Playground just need a pedestrian path connecting them to the rest of the city, while sub-buildings like the Bus Depot Extra Garage will need road access to function. We’re excited to see how you take advantage of this new freedom in your cities, so don’t hesitate to tag us on social media if you’re showing off screenshots.


EXISTING CITIES
Now you might wonder how all of this affects your existing cities, so let’s get the most obvious question out of the way first. Saves from before the economy rework still work, though we expect they will have a transition period as the simulation adapts to the changes. When it comes to modded saves, we can’t make any guarantees, but keep an eye out for updates or instructions from the modders. Mods that affect the simulation are likely to be affected by the update.

When you load up your city (and unpause) there are a few things you should keep in mind. With Government Subsidies removed and City Service upkeep increased, the cost of running your city just increased. If your city relies on ambulances, hearses, fire engines, police cars, and garbage trucks coming from Outside Connection, make sure to enable the Import City Services policy in the City Information panel, but don’t forget that your neighbors charge a fee to help you out. All this is expected to create a negative money trend, but depending on your city’s finances, your tax income might be enough to offset the new costs once the calculations catch up. If you’re struggling for money, don’t forget that you can increase taxes, reduce service budgets, or temporarily turn buildings off to save on their upkeep cost.

Demand adjusts quite quickly, so don’t be alarmed if some of your demand bars empty or fill up when you start playing. With the increase in industrial manufacturing space, your industry will be on a hiring spree that’s likely to drive up your residential demand - unless your city has workers already looking for a job. We recommend giving it some time though as companies (commercial, industrial, and office) readjust their production and employee numbers to be profitable, which we expect will overall lead to an increase in unemployment in your city.

With the new calculations for residential density demand, your citizens may also start looking for different types of housing or move around the city. Thankfully, the new calculations for rent and resource consumption should help them afford the type of housing they prefer, and we expect most (if not all) of your “High Rent” notifications will disappear after letting the simulation run for a while. If you keep seeing these or they start to come back, then make sure to check your unemployment and provide citizens with jobs so that they can pay their rent.

With time and some tweaks, your existing cities should adjust to the changes, so you can get back to realizing their full potential. And as always, don’t hesitate to ask for help if you encounter any situations you’re unsure of how to handle and report any bugs you might run into here.


WHAT’S NEXT?
Before we finish for today, we’d like to share our plans going forward. We will of course follow discussions and read feedback you share as you play with these changes. We’ve done extensive testing to get the changes as balanced as possible, but we know that some tweaking will likely still be necessary once you all start sharing your experiences.

We’ve already started work on the next major patch which we hope to have ready for you in Q3, and we want to give you a little sneak peek at what you can expect. As previously mentioned, we want to expand the service import to bring you more control. We’re also looking at what we can improve in the UI and how the game relays information to you, so you have everything you need to solve issues in the game. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Are there any issues you’ve struggled to solve in your city? Any information you have been looking for but weren’t able to find?

Last, but definitely not least, the art team has been cooking up some new free buildings for you all. We appreciate each and every one of you for sticking with us and giving us a chance to make Cities: Skylines II what it can and should be. Your patience and support mean the world to us and we hope the new service buildings and vehicles can serve as a token of our appreciation. Thank you for being a part of our community!

NewStuff.png

A sneak peek at some of the new service buildings and vehicles you can look forward to
 
  • 109Like
  • 54Love
  • 3
  • 2
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
This looks really interesting, and it's nice to learn about some of the inner workings of things.

I have to ask, what the heck is the "space multiplier" ? Like, the amount of space around the lot you've zoned? And is that "free" space, or unzoned space or?

I'd love to see more of these functions being shown off and their components explained as I honestly didn't know some of those elements were impactful.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
As a vanilla player, I believe these are necessary improvements and can enhance creativity for the game (like the placement of sub-buildings within a certain radius). New buildings are always useful because otherwise, the cities tend to look similar. In my opinion, the game gets better with every patch. Keep it up!
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
This looks really interesting, and it's nice to learn about some of the inner workings of things.

I have to ask, what the heck is the "space multiplier" ? Like, the amount of space around the lot you've zoned? And is that "free" space, or unzoned space or?

I'd love to see more of these functions being shown off and their components explained as I honestly didn't know some of those elements were impactful.
Space multiplier is probably the home size, so the same variable that gives the "spacious homes" to "small homes" modifiers we see in the happiness breakdown.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
We’re also looking at what we can improve in the UI and how the game relays information to you, so you have everything you need to solve issues in the game. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Are there any issues you’ve struggled to solve in your city? Any information you have been looking for but weren’t able to find?

I think one of the bigger things missing in the UI is knowing how one thing interacts with the other. For example, when you look deeper at the demand graph, you'll see various reasons why things are affecting the graph, which is great. It's when you see stuff like "Cost of living" driving down demand, and not knowing what that actually is, and/or presenting options on fixing it. Links to the in-game help system, or tooltips that show when hovering over UI elements would be hugely helpful to having a better understanding of the complexity of the system we're tweaking.

An example of a tooltip that would be helpful to me, is that when hovering over an info graph, getting a dynamic list of the potential things effecting that graph, or a more detailed breakdown of the data. If I hover over the unemployment rate, I'd to know what demographic(s) are driving the result (low educated teenagers, high educated adults, etc.), or "Low housing inventory", or cheeps from people with that info. That would give me a direction to go towards addressing the problem.

Other smaller UI items that are more quality-of-life issues:
  • Would love a UI toggle to make zoning blocks disappear. This would be so helpful when trying to put down footpaths or otherwise decorate my city.
  • Would love to be able to see the service area for buildings when I plop them. Something like when you see the network strength when you're plopping a network tower.
  • I would like to not have to switch to the ground pollution view so I can see roads and topography when snow is on the ground. I use a mod to disable the weather because of this.
  • A toggle to enable showing the actual height on topography and existing roads/footpaths when hovering over them. I currently have to go into terraform mode to get that info.
  • It would be nice to show the wind speed/direction and existing ground pollution as I am plopping down assets that pollute.
  • This is more gameplay, but it's really frustrating that planning elements like natural resource locations and topography are locked behind progression gates. I would really like to be able to know if my future beachfront neighborhood is sitting on the only patch of relatively accessible oil before I put it there without having to open the map in the editor, then remember where it is, then remember not to build there anyway.
In the more general sense of issues I've struggled to solve, is vehicle pathfinding causing traffic to backup in unrealistic ways. It seems like cars take the shortest route with the least amount of stops, which, on paper seems fine. The problem is that the cars behave as if the cims don't have eyes and refuse to adjust their route once it's set. If I see a clogged roadway, but I know a bunch of side streets are less full, I'm taking the side streets, regardless of stop signs or traffic signals. I don't know about you folks, but distance driven matters a lot less than to me than time spent driving does.

Conversely, buses will bypass bus stops and not stay on their routes because the drivers somehow know there isn't anybody at the stop, or nobody on the bus wants to get off. On paper, a bus being as efficient as possible makes logical sense. People want to get where they are going faster. On the other hand, these buses often take routes that contribute to the traffic problems that I am trying to alleviate. I cannot count the number of times I've seen a bus skip multiple stops so it can make an ill-advised U turn on a two-lane road, and back up traffic. Or they try and take a left turn when I've set up my routes to only take right turns to prevent intersections being blocked.

Thanks for all the info and all that you folks are doing!
 
  • 3Like
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
We’re also looking at what we can improve in the UI and how the game relays information to you, so you have everything you need to solve issues in the game. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this topic. Are there any issues you’ve struggled to solve in your city? Any information you have been looking for but weren’t able to find?

Please add a quick camera panning action button on the UI the moment when a traffic accident occurs. And please add a "Pause the game immediately when traffic accidents occurred!" toggle option!

Whenever a traffic accident happens in the city, it would always be in places we don't usually see while we are building our cities. That usually means, when we noticed an accident has occurred, we have to scramble and pan our camera around until we locate the site of the incident, and by then, the accident has already happened without knowing how severe it is, how far the cars have flown off the cliff/bridge/road, or how many vehicles/passengers were involved.

If we have these 2 features as part of the UI improvements, we can then do the following:

  1. The game pauses the game, alerting us a traffic accident has occurred.
  2. We switch our focus from building our city to the Quick Pan UI action button on the screen, near where the warning announcements show up at the top of the screen.
  3. Clicking on the Quick Pan action button will immediately pan our camera towards the location of where the traffic accident will about to start occurring.
  4. Let the players unpause and play the simulation at any speed they want.
  5. Let players enjoy watching the mayhem of cars crashing and stuffs! <---------- SUPER IMPORTANT FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING THE GAME FUN AND ENJOY THE SIMULATION!!!!!!
  6. Let the players figure out what to do about the accident location and improve from there.

Please consider the "enjoyment" of simulating traffic accidents for us players!!

If the players are tired of the traffic accidents occuring in the game, the option toggle to disable the "Pause game when traffic accidents occur" is there, and the players can go back to continue building the city whenever they want to.

Thank you!
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
This looks really interesting, and it's nice to learn about some of the inner workings of things.

I have to ask, what the heck is the "space multiplier" ? Like, the amount of space around the lot you've zoned? And is that "free" space, or unzoned space or?

I'd love to see more of these functions being shown off and their components explained as I honestly didn't know some of those elements were impactful.
Based on the formula, space multiplier should be the fraction of the building, occupied by one flat.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Based on the formula, space multiplier should be the fraction of the building, occupied by one flat.
That makes sense since in real life the area of floor space is usually a large factor in determining rent price. Assuming you’re right - the “space multiplier” could be something like [(floor area*number of floors)/(lot size)]/(number of families)?
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Hi, this are great news. I've some question/suggestion about the transport aspects of the games.

The first ones is if the following station buildings will be added in the future:
- smaller bus terminals
- smaller train stations and an elevated and underground version
- elevated metro stations (if they could also be built over roads it would be fantastic!)

The last ones are about the road upgrade system, in a future uptade the following feature will be introduced?
- possibility to swap the parking along the road for addition vehicular or transit only lanes;
- having the possibility to have asymmetric avenues with medians;
- the bridge style dependent only on the road with and not its type (for example having the same bridge style both for the 2-way 2lane road and fot the one way two lane road).
The stations are on our wishlist but I can't give a timeline for when they might be added to the game. There's no denying that the transport buildings we added in the free patches for Cities: Skylines were popular, so it's definitely something we have in mind for future content. ^^

As for the road-related wishes, I'll make sure they're all on our community wishlist. No promise they'll end up in the game though!

Hi Avanya,

Thank you for the progress update in this dev diary, you guys are doing some promising work in terms of gameplay and simulation. I have maybe more of an abstract question, but you mention that when a building “levels down” it simply gets abandoned and collapses. Why not instead have the building actually level down so that its rent decreases again and it settles into some intermediate wealth level. It seems that building level is attempting to model different wealth/social class levels, but the discussion seems to be on trying to get every building to level 5 (high-class). I can imagine a situation in the game where a building levels up, tenants can no longer pay rent, the building gets abandoned and collapses, and a new building takes its place, rinse and repeat. It would make more sense it seems for a building to reach some steady-state at some intermediate level so that it houses an appropriate wealth class of cim. In real life of course, not every house is a mansion and not every high rise is luxury apartments, so it would make sense for there to be a multitude of different level buildings in your city.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Looking forward to playing the new update!
Both leveling up and down (=collapsing) takes time. Each month tenants need to pay for the building's upkeep. If they can afford it, the building starts to progress towards the next level. If they cannot, it progresses towards collapse. Buildings may move back and forth if the tenants can sometimes afford the upkeep and struggle other times, but if the tendency over a longer period is for one or the other, the building will eventually level up or collapse.

Typically, buildings settle at a level the tenants can afford, but of course changes in the city can affect that. I might build a new commercial area that steals customers from existing commercial buildings. They have less sales and then start to be unable to afford their building. Or I build a new highway through an office area, resulting in citizens becoming unemployed or getting lower paid jobs, so they can't pay the upkeep cost on their homes.

This looks really interesting, and it's nice to learn about some of the inner workings of things.

I have to ask, what the heck is the "space multiplier" ? Like, the amount of space around the lot you've zoned? And is that "free" space, or unzoned space or?

I'd love to see more of these functions being shown off and their components explained as I honestly didn't know some of those elements were impactful.
It's essentially a value that indicates the size of a building. For example, if you have two high density residential buildings the space multiplier to let the game know how many people should live in each building. It isn't necessarily tied to the size of the building but also represents the variations in apartments inside the building. And as that affects the number of tenants, it's included in the rent calculations.
 
Last edited:
Wholeheartedly agree... the play to win mentality translates into a pursuit of utopia in-game. I'd prefer to play an economic simulation that attempts to model real life economic decision-making. Choices in real life involve trade-offs and opportunity costs. For all the flaws this upcoming patch will (hopefully) fix, it seems to me this was the underlying goal in CS2's economic simulation.
Yeah we need to be held accountable when we screw up. Riots, shootings, violence and stores on fire when we mess up real bad.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Why not make upgrades to the building in the way that some can be places in close peoximity of thw building but not necessarily right next to it. Like for example some parks and buildings for university could be placed throughout the city. Making it a real student town.

Also events. I liked the match day in CS, but I feel like the events could be a bit better. For example related to the seasons, more demand for shops in winter for xmass, more demand for parks in summer where concerts can happen. Also big missing piece is stadiums that are designed for big crowds and add a lot of aesthetics to the cityscape.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I don't disagree with your concerns, but it seems to me that prioritizing the economy patch was really about winning back the majority of the audience that has abandoned the game. I pre-paid... I'm enjoying the game (700+ hours at this point). I'd like to receive the promised content--but if they don't re-earn the trust of their audience the risk is very real that the game will be dead in the water and we'll see nothing... ever again. I'd prefer they prioritize what's essential to maintain a viable business model for the game.

After almost 1 year of nothing, no significant improvement, I really don't know what to prioritize!
This game has serious problems from several points of view and not a single one of these individual aspects has been improved in many months.
The real improvement of this patch will remain to be seen, what real impact it will have on the game dynamics...we can only hope. The context that has been created in these 8 months after the release does not give confidence and does not bode well.
I think this is quite objective, unless you really want to kid yourself, stick your head in the sand and pretend nothing happened.

As an enthusiast I can only hope that the situation will be recovered because this game could potentially be a city builder's paradise...As a paying customer I was defrauded in an unworthy manner and the more time that passes the worse it will be.
 
  • 9
  • 5
Reactions:
Why not make upgrades to the building in the way that some can be places in close peoximity of thw building but not necessarily right next to it. Like for example some parks and buildings for university could be placed throughout the city. Making it a real student town.

Also events. I liked the match day in CS, but I feel like the events could be a bit better. For example related to the seasons, more demand for shops in winter for xmass, more demand for parks in summer where concerts can happen. Also big missing piece is stadiums that are designed for big crowds and add a lot of aesthetics to the cityscape.
It's already in this upcoming patch update.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
The context that has been created in these 8 months after the release does not give confidence and does not bode well.
I think this is quite objective, unless you really want to kid yourself, stick your head in the sand and pretend nothing happened.
The "context" that has been created is entirely subjective and has largely been contributed to by a very loud group of marginal users who haven't (apparently) bothered to try to play the game or understand its underlying simulation. And a great many users have had largely out of whack expectations for a vanilla game.

Like ALL SOFTWARE, this game needed improvement. For example, I would have liked to have seen bikes in the initial release (is that a bug, though, or an expectation?). I would have liked to have seen a prop line tool (much less props) in the initial release (is that a bug, though, or an expectation?). I would have liked to see an advanced lane-switching algorithm like TMPE had (is that a bug, though, or an expectation?).

I chose to enjoy and learn to play the game that was delivered.

In some ways, the entire fiasco has been grossly offensive. There are, quite literally, thousands dead in an active war zone only a few thousand miles from Finland--and gamers are acting as if their worlds have ended. THAT is the context. The response from many in the community has been gross and offensive, and totally out of proportion to the world in which we presently live.

Speaking as an enthusiast who has actually been playing the game (760+ hours) on a machine that can handle it, I haven't experienced the problems that you claim don't, "bode well," for our shared future. The vanilla CS2 experience is objectively superior to the vanilla CS1 experience--and the CS2 vanilla experience is on par with CS1 modded play. Every time I try going back to CS1 (those custom maps are irresistible at times), I'm stunned by how clunky the mechanics feel compared to CS2 (and waiting for it to load... even with the load screen mod? SHEESH!).

Is any game perfect on release? No ... has this company sustained a good faith effort to improve the game, despite the rancor and harassment and toxicity they've received? YES. What worries me as a player who is ENJOYING this game is that, at some point, due to all the angry and gross behavior from others in the community, someone at PDXCO is going to decide to throw in the towel. And then those of us who HAVE enjoyed this game will be stuck--because others in this community have lacked a mature and sober perspective.

"stick your head in the sand," is belittling and dismissive.

When someone else speaks from an experience that doesn't correspond with yours, your answer is to insult them? Please, you may not like the plain fact that others are enjoying this game. But you are absolutely not entitled to attack and harass them relentlessly online for speaking their point of view.
 
  • 9
  • 5
  • 2Like
  • 1Love
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
Hi CO!

This is a great step in the right direction! I can’t wait to start a new city or continue my existing ones under this new model!

After this patch, I think CO should focus on ironing out the remaining bugs that have been reported since October but remain unaddressed. I hope many are fixed in this patch, but I imagine some won’t be.

I do wonder if the previous Economy would have worked without government subsidies and if quirks like children living alone or with unemployed seniors had been addressed.

I would have wanted tools to curb rent growth or promote income growth, but I fear the objective of this patch is to largely do away with these issues by simply making them less likely. Only time will tell. I’ll provide more detailed feedback once I’ve tried the patch.

One point of feedback:

Would it be possible to divorce tax rates for residential zones based on education level? It seems odd. Surely, there’s some high wealth, low education find, and vise versa.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Both leveling up and down (=collapsing) takes time. Each month tenants need to pay for the building's upkeep. If they can afford it, the building starts to progress towards the next level. If they cannot, it progresses towards collapse. Buildings may move back and forth if the tenants can sometimes afford the upkeep and struggle other times, but if the tendency over a longer period is for one or the other, the building will eventually level up or collapse.

Typically, buildings settle at a level the tenants can afford, but of course changes in the city can affect that. I might build a new commercial area that steals customers from existing commercial buildings. They have less sales and then start to be unable to afford their building. Or I build a new highway through an office area, resulting in citizens becoming unemployed or getting lower paid jobs, so they can't pay the upkeep cost on their homes.
This is such an interesting mechanic.

So if I got it right, buildings will be able to both level up and down based on the tenants payments?

If I can suggest a better way to go through this (well thought) idea in a way that can give the player a clear visual feedback of this process:
-in my opinion a property should only be able to level UP until the tenants are able to pay the upkeep costs.
-when tenants can't afford to pay anymore, the property starts to become more and more scruffy WITHOUT leveling down (i.e. by changing building props to a scruffy version so that it looks like the property is not taken care of)
-that should happen increasingly for 2 or 3 times consecutively before the property eventually collapse.
-at that point tenants should already been moved elsewhere, otherwise they can face injuries or even death during the property collapse and survivors should become homeless.

I guess it must be a lot of work to create different variations of all the game props to render this idea, but that would be really cool.

Try to pass this idea to the Dev Team.. <3
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
@co_avanya

When disasters destroy properties, they should remain destroyed absent intentional government policies to replace them. And if there’s such a policy, there should be a cost. This promotes a choice for players: let cims look for new homes with a happiness cost or allow them to rebuild existing homes providing a happiness boost but real reconstruction costs for the city.
 
  • 7Like
Reactions: