Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

[bart153]

hey, Białystok is a city, so is Warsaw, the provinces should be Podlasie and Masovia

Will there be Polish language in the game?

 

[Mef]

Some quotes from this article on food in Sweden during the 17th century:

1685 was generally a normal agricultural year in Sweden but, in the previous year, bad harvests hit the southern parts of the country. In 1684–1685, therefore, 250,000 barrels of Crown grain were ordered from Riga and Tallinn to several ports in Sweden. However, the order was not realized in full. Belatedly, in the first half of 1685, only a total of 104,842 barrels were sent. In the 1690s, large quantities of Crown grain were transferred to the kingdom’s fortresses. 1695–1699, it seems that all grain exports from Sweden’s possessions in Estland, Ingria, and Livonia – Reval (Tallin), Pärnu, Narva, and Nyen (now St. Petersburg) – went to Sweden or Finland. Starting in 1697, Sweden also received supplies from Riga. In the catastrophic hunger year of 1697, 69,000 barrels were demanded from Riga, Reval, and Ösel, to be transported to Sweden and Finland and, in 1698, c.50,000 barrels were ordered to Sweden, Finland, and Ingria. In 1699, 45,000 barrels were ordered to Sweden and to Swedish Pomerania but only 32,000 arrived. 25,000 of these barrels went to Sweden.

The second phase, not well covered in the graph, coincides with the Great Northern War of 1700–1721 (Sweden against Russia, Denmark-Norway, and Saxony-Poland-Lithuania). Without a doubt, this was a period with troubled, declining foreign trade. During the war, Sweden successively lost its grain-rich possessions on the other side of the Baltic Sea. From around 1705, supplies from these areas were dwindling and finally cut off. Sweden now finally had to rely on its own food production and what could be imported via English or other neutral ships.

It appears that Sweden depended on grain imports in the 17th century, chiefly from its possessions in the Baltic. Riga and Reval are mentioned especially as ports that exported grain. Losing access to the grain from these areas was a big blow to the country.
This adds just one more argument to the suggestion that Latvia and Estonia should be major agricultural producers - both of fiber crops and sturdy grains (not wheat ) - rather than being so focused on lumber and livestock (with almost all of their locations woodlands or forests).

 

[Em Ay Ef]

Locations
View attachment 1141100

And here's my next batch of feedback on Polish location names, which already stretches over these three posts.



Let's start by the coast.

• Karthaus ("Kartuzy" in Polish) is quite lacking in historically significant towns. The name "Karthaus" refers to an abbey which eventually gave rise to the town, but this place didn't have much administrative importance before the 19th century. Perhaps naming the location after Chmielno (Ger. "Chmelno") or Goręczyn would be justified? Both were the seat of a castellan at least.
• Lebork: in Polish, it's "Lębork" (historically also "Łebno", "Lewino"). In German, it's "Lauenburg" (or "Lauenburg in Pommern" to distinguish it from the other Lauenburg, the one on the Elbe).
• Considering the sheltered nature of the south coast of the Baltic, with ports frequently protected by long chains of barrier islands, at times connected into long peninsulas, wouldn't it make sense to add a little tactical depth by having the Gulf of Gdańsk, as well as the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons, represented as small sea locations not unlike those in Frisia? Fleets were known to use those protected bodies of water as hiding spots in times of conflict, avoiding naval battles in the open sea.

And here's some dynamic Polish names just in case you haven't gotten them all already:

• Danzig: "Gdańsk".
• Putzig: "Puck".
• Berent: "Kościerzyna".
• Bütow: "Bytów".
• Dirschau: "Tczew".
• Tuchel: "Tuchola".
• Schlochau: "Człuchów", historically "Słuchów".
• Schwetz: "Świecie".
• Graudenz: "Grudziądz".
• Marienwerder: "Kwidzyn".

• Torun: there's a typo, it should be "Toruń".
• Löbau (Pol. "Lubawa") could potentially be divided, its southwestern part becoming separate under the name "Michałowo" or "Brodnica". These towns were the heart of the historical Ziemia Michałowska province.
• Golub-Dobrzyń
  Could you disclose if this location represents the lands around Golub, belonging to the historical province known as Ziemia Chełmińska and restricted to the right bank of the Drwęca, or is it the area surrounding the town of Dobrzyń nad Drwęcą immediately across the river from Golub and thus in Ziemia Dobrzyńska province? My money is on the latter, but this is hard to make out from the map.
  In any case, the towns of Golub and Dobrzyń nad Drwęcą hadn't been merged until the mid-20th century, and prior to that they belonged to distinct historical areas. As such, this question is important from the location naming perspective.
  If the location turns out to be Golub on the right bank of the Drwęca, then my only suggestion would be renaming it "Golub", removing the anachronistic association with Dobrzyń nad Drwęcą.
  If the location represents the westernmost part of Ziemia Dobrzyńska bound by the left bank of the Drwęca, we should ideally look for a new name. Dobrzyń nad Drwęcą was neither big nor important, and administratively these lands were divided between Rypin and Lipno, both already present as locations. There aren't any significant towns to the west of either Rypin or Lipno, making it hard to find a suitable replacement for Dobrzyń nad Drwęcą, but there is one to the east which could help. See, Ziemia Dobrzyńska, the wider province, isn't named after Dobrzyń nad Drwęcą but after Dobrzyń nad Wisłą, southeast of Lipno, on the Vistula river (hence the name "nad Wisłą"). It seems weird in the first place that Lipno is a location while Dobrzyń nad Wisłą isn't, being included in Lipno. But if you were to rename Golub-Dobrzyń "Lipno" (and tweak the borders a little), the old Lipno location could be used to represent the more significant city of Dobrzyń nad Wisłą.
  Spoiler: A map of the area's subdivisions for clarity.

  

• What's that location directly to the south of Stolp? Is it Rummelsburg (Pol. "Miastko")? This area doesn't have too many historical settlements, I'm kind of surprised it's a separate location.
• Is the green location south of Köslin Schivelbein (Pol. "Świdwin")? Or maybe Labes (Pol. "Łobez"), but that would've likely been visible on the map?
• Same question for the purplish location west of Köslin.
• Köslin itself (Pol. "Koszalin") could potentially be divided, with Kolberg (Pol. "Kołobrzeg") split off in the western half.
• Saatzig (Pol. "Szadzko") has declined rather dramatically over the game period, losing all prominence. It might be worthwhile to look into possible replacements; maybe Freienwalde (Pol. "Chociwel")?

Polish dynamic names:

• Stolp: "Słupsk".
• Schlawe: "Sławno".
• Bublitz: "Bobolice".
• Belgard: "Białogard".
• Neustettin: "Szczecinek".
• Dramburg: "Drawsko Pomorskie".
• Regenwalde: "Resko".
• Arnswalde: "Choszczno".
• Friedeberg: "Strzelce" (the full name is "Strzelce Krajeńskie", introduced as such after WW2; the part "Krajeńskie" likely served to associate it with the historically Polish region Krajna, which is actually located nowhere near Strzelce).

• Sulechów (if I see the name right) is fine as a location, but arguably it wasn't as prominent as Świebodzin next door.
• Is the green location west of Zielona Góra Crossen an der Oder (Pol. "Krosno Odrzańskie")?
• Wołów wasn't the ducal seat as often as Ścinawa just nearby (Ger. "Steinau").
• Lubań, at least the city, is part of Lusatia, but the location also encompasses a wide swath of Silesian land. I would suggest splitting off the eastern part of Lubań stretching from Głogów to Jawor, creating a new location there: either Lwówek Śląski or Bolesławiec. This would also make for a more interesting trade goods setup, Lwówek Śląski being a gold mining center, while Bolesławiec eventually achieving fame for its porcelain.
• Ząbkowice Śląskie was in fact subordinate to the older city of Ziębice (Ger. "Münsterberg"), which was the seat of the local duke.
• Trzebnica: the north part of this location covers the marshy valley of the Barycz, a major obstacle to movement between Silesia and Wielkopolska. The biggest town on this stretch of the Barycz, called Milicz, was changing hands between the dukes of Oleśnica, the bishops of Wrocław and the crown of Bohemia, eventually becoming one of Silesia's Freie Standesherrschaften and perhaps justifying the creation of a separate location in Milicz?
• Brieg is of course called "Brzeg" in Polish.
• Grodków should perhaps be reworked into Nysa (Ger. "Neisse")? Nysa was an important ducal and episcopal seat; Grodków was subordinate to Nysa since 1344 (technically, the ruling prince-bishop's title was "Fürst von Neisse und Herzog von Grottkau", but Nysa was the original and factual seat of power). The northernmost bit of the location could be handed off to Brzeg, as Nysa didn't really stretch this far north.
  Nysa did, however, stretch much further south, extending into Frywałd (modern Czech "Jeseník", hist. "Frývaldov", Ger. "Freiwaldau") in the west of Krnov. Frywałd was the largest town in the prince-bishopric and it remained part of Nysa until the First Silesian War, when Nysa was ceded to Prussia while Frywałd became part of Austrian Silesia.
• Krnov and Bruntál (Pol. "Karniów" and "Bruntal" respectively): the proposed layout looks a little unusual...
  First, the Duchy of Krnov didn't really control that much land to the west. Pretty much the entire western part of the location belonged to Nysa (aka Grodków), or specifically to the town of Frywałd under the authority of the bishops in Nysa. Accessing it from Krnov required crossing the mountains. It seems reasonable that these lands be moved from Krnov to Nysa, or even made into their own location if you wish to maintain today's political border between Czechia and Poland, which goes through the historical Duchy of Nysa, between Nysa in the north and Frywałd in the south.
  Now on to Bruntál, which didn't control all that much land. While it changed hands in the game period, the actual area affected doesn't really warrant map real estate. The Bruntál location could easily be removed, with the southeastern part merging with Opava (these lands were always part of Opava in the first place, even before Bruntál town was acquired), while the northern part can be merged with Krnov.
  
  Spoiler: A map of different lands in Austrian Silesia (Opava aka Troppau, Krnov aka Jägerndorf, Bruntál aka Freudenthal, and Frywałd in Neisse).

  
  Regarding the political layout, why did you choose to put Krnov in Opole and Bruntál in Moravia? Both belonged to Opava in 1337, while Opava itself was unified with Racibórz (whether as a single tag or a PU is probably up to debate). Opole didn't own any land in the neighborhood except for Prudnik, which it got in exchange for giving up its claim to Racibórz, but Prudnik seems to be within the Koźle location.
• Lubliniec could potentially be reworked so that it includes Strzelce Wielkie (current name: "Strzelce Opolskie"), which was the actual ducal seat and possibly the better name for the location.
• Racibórz is obviously a mistake. I assume this location is supposed to be Namysłów, in which case it could possibly take over the northern part of Brzeg, bordering Oleśnica.
  Another explanation I see is that the location is supposed to be Kluczbork. But in this case I would argue Namysłów takes precedence, being a ducal seat. (Kluczbork might be split off of it easily though.)
• Rybnik is of course where Racibórz should be. Rybnik was a relatively minor town in Racibórz Duchy and, while it would be fun to have, probably won't make the cut. There are more deserving cities even within Racibórz, such as Wodzisław and Pszczyna.
  The location of Rybnik/Racibórz should extend a little further to the west, into what is Opava. The city of Racibórz is west of the Oder, just next to Koźle; they should border each other.
• Koźle is a good candidate for division. As it is depicted, the location extends far west, into areas that historically had little to do with the dukes in Koźle. These lands were ruled by the owners of Prudnik, Głogówek and Niemodlin, having splintered off of primarily the duchy of Opole and remaining in Opole's political orbit. Koźle on the other hand was one of the subdivisions of the Duchy of Racibórz, later passing into the hands of Oleśnica (Oels).
  The new location, named Prudnik, Głogówek or Niemodlin, could take up the western tip of Koźle and some neighboring land from Grodków and Opole directly to the north.
• Żywiec is nice to have, but politically it always followed the same path as Oświęcim. I'm not sure if the two must be apart.
• Trenčín (Pol. "Trenczyn"): is it supposed to so big? It's easily the largest location around, meanwhile it represents a constrained mountain valley. For granularity's sake, Žilina (Pol. "Żylina") may be a good addition in the northern part of the location.

And some dynamic names:

• Kladsko: "Kładzko" (changed to "Kłodzko" after WW2).
• Těšín: "Cieszyn".

 

[Em Ay Ef]

And here's my next batch of feedback on Polish location names, which already stretches over these three posts.

I imagine there is a drinking game in game dev where you take a shot whenever this exact sentence comes up.

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

I wonder when the developers will publish changes for this region.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

I wonder when the developers will publish changes for this region.

They've only published the Low Countries one so far, and when I asked when they would publish the other ones Johan said when it's implemented.

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

They've only published the Low Countries one so far, and when I asked when they would publish the other ones Johan said when it's implemented.

All right. I think they released updated maps of the Netherlands last Monday, so that's what I was counting on today.

It seems to me that Iberia and France received less feedback than the Netherlands - if so, they could present both regions at the same time after the changes.

 

[Mef]

All right. I think they released updated maps of the Netherlands last Monday, so that's what I was counting on today.

It seems to me that Iberia and France received less feedback than the Netherlands - if so, they could present both regions at the same time after the changes.

They were still working on Iberia when posting the Italy thread, and every additional map thread is just going to increase the workload (since older threads still have new posts coming in). I wouldn't expect progress reports to be made promptly for these threads.

 

[pog67676767]

If they keep ruthenia as just one big blob I will be very dissapointed ):

 

[Mingmung]

What's the current take on Warszawa?

I'm honestly fine if it's already a location on the map instead of a name-change after an event. The other locations in its vicinity are important enough to keep around. It probably already existed back in 1337, but was obviously quite small, still.

 

[Em Ay Ef]

Locations
View attachment 1141100

Some thoughts on locations in southeastern Poland:

• Rzeszów is an important administrative center nowadays, but in the game period it was subordinate to Przeworsk, which is just a bit to the east.
• Hrubieszów was known as "Rubieszów" until the 19th century.
• Hrubieszów, Lubaczów, Krasnystaw: one of these locations contains Zamość, a city founded in the 16th century to become the leading urban center in the area. Might be fun to model this through an event that leads to name change, perhaps.
• Shatsk (Pol. "Szack") could potentially be replaced with Luboml, which was the powiat seat and is located just a bit to the south.
• Yavoriv (Pol. "Jaworów") deserves a makeover. The city isn't to the north of Lviv, but immediately to the west.
• And what's that ruddy location to the east of Yavoriv? Is it Kamionka Strumiłowa (or, as it is currently known, Kamionka Bużańska)?
• Dołyna was actually called "Janów" historically. But arguably it wasn't as important as the nearby city of Stryj.
• Bohorodchany (I assume that's what the yellow location next to Dołyna is; in this case the Polish name would be "Bohorodczany"): the real deal in this location is of course the city of Stanisławów, which wasn't founded until the 17th century. I assume Bohorodchany was chosen give the location a less anachronistic name, but Bohorodchany wasn't a very consequential settlement. I would suggest using either Tysmenytsia (Pol. "Tyśmienica") or Kalush (Pol. "Kałusz") in its place; both were granted city rights in the 16th century and Tysmenytsia was even the seat of a powiat.
• Bereschany (Pol. "Brzeżany") is significantly younger than nearby Podhajce, potentially warranting a name switch.
• Brody was granted city rights incredibly late, which makes me wonder if there's an older, more appropriate location name in the neighborhood.
• Ternopil (Pol. "Tarnopol") is the dominant city in that area, however it wasn't founded until the mid-16th century.
• Zalischchyky (Pol. "Zaleszczyki") remained a village throughout the game period. There was a city, called Czortków, just nearby if you would like to update the location's name.
• Khmelnytskyi (Pol. "Chmielnicki") was called "Płoskirów" until 1954.
• Rozhyshche (Pol. "Rożyszcze") and Lutsk (Pol. "Łuck") look like they traded places. Lutsk should be the one in the south.
• Kostopil (Pol. "Kostopol") is a relatively new name, only acquiring city rights in 1792 and not even appearing in the historical record until the mid-17th century. I would suggest renaming it "Bereźne", as this town has a medieval origin.
• What is that pink location to the west of Kostopil?
• Drahichyn (Pol. "Drohiczyn" or "Drohiczyn Poleski" to set it apart from the Drohiczyn within Łosice location; hist. also called "Dowieczorowicze") is a fairly young settlement to be put on the map in 1337.

I'll finish here, since my knowledge mostly pertains to the area within Poland's contemporary borders. The farther away I go, the less value my input would have.

But first, some dynamic Polish names (I lack the knowledge to comment on Ukrainian names, so I'll just copy them from the map even though many have pointed out errors and inconsistencies in these spellings):

• Sambir: "Sambor".
• Drohobych: "Drohobycz".
• Brest Litovsk: "Brześć Litewski".
• Ratne: "Ratno".
• Kovel: "Kowel".
• Volodymyr: I would suggest "Włodzimierz Wołyński" to set it apart from the other Włodzimierz in Russia.
• Belz: "Bełz".
• Lviv: "Lwów".
• Zhydachiv: "Żydaczów".
• Kosiv: "Kosów". The town is so young and small that I wonder if there's a more appropriate name for the location, but I don't know enough about these lands to have any valuable input.
• Kolomyia: "Kołomyja".
• Butschatsch: "Buczacz".
• Halych: "Halicz".
• Rohatyn: "Rohatyn", same.
• Busk: "Busk".
• Radekhiv: "Radziechów".
• Terebowlja: "Trembowla".
• Sbarasch: "Zbaraż".
• Horodok: "Gródek".
• Ostroh: "Ostróg".
• Kremenets: "Krzemieniec".
• Rivne: "Równe".
• Dubno: "Dubno".
• Korets: "Korzec".
• Volodymerets: "Włodzimierzec". It seems really small to have a whole location representing it.
• Dubrovytsia: "Dąbrowica".
• Liubeshiv: "Lubieszów". This also feels a little small and young in comparison to other places that have been made into locations.
• Kobryn: "Kobryń".

Now back to the area I'm more familiar with...

Provinces

Any suggestions for provincial naming are pretty welcome, as in the last DD!

• The first thing that comes to mind is that Polish provinces were traditionally named along the following model: "Ziemia Sieradzka","Ziemia Wiska", "Ziemia Dobrzyńska", translating to "Land of Sieradz", "Land of Wizna", "Land of Dobrzyń". It's really the same thing that you adopted in Italy with provinces like "Terra di Bari".
  Perhaps it's worth a try changing those province names to the "Ziemia" model, but for now I'll be commenting on what city should actually be chosen for which province.
• "Płock" should be "Gostynin", while "Ciechanów" could be renamed "Płock". Not really sure about Pułtusk, as it's a collection of separate lands, which apparently include a fair bit of the traditional province of Ciechanów (but not Ciechanów itself).
• If the location Czersk will change name to become Warszawa, perhaps the same should apply to the province?
• "Białystok" should be called "Podlasie". Not after a town but it's the traditional name of the region, and references to it are present in many city names (eg. "Biała Podlaska").
• Perhaps change "Kozienice" to "Radom"?
• "Pajęczno" to "Piotrków" and "Wieluń" to "Sieradz".
• And since Pajęczno, Wieluń and Łęczyca constitute a separate state to emphasise that this region wasn't considered a part of Wielkopolska and Małopolska, why not give similar treatment to Kujawy? It was historically its own entity, comprised of the provinces of Lipno, Inowrocław and to some extent Kulm.
• "Lipno" should give way to "Dobrzyń".
• The layout of Lipno and Inowrocław is also a little shaky from a historical standpoint. I elaborated on it a little in my previous post about the area, but the general idea is as follows: the lands on either bank of the Vistula were generally separated, with provincial borders following the river rather than crossing it. On the south bank, two provincial centers were in Brześć Kujawski and Inowrocław; on the north, there were Chełmno and Dobrzyń nad Wisłą.
• I'm not entirely sure that Gniezno and Koźmin need to be in separate provinces from Kalisz. Historically, they were the same województwo, and they're all rather small. The województwo also included Żnin, but because of distance alone it'd make little sense to put Żnin under Kalisz in the game. Perhaps Żnin and Gniezno could be merged into a single province, while Kalisz and Koźmin make up another?
• Marienburg could be divided to split off Warmia in the east.
• "Těšín" could be replaced with "Racibórz", as that duchy was older; it even included Těšín for some time.
• [EDITED TO ADD: "Lublin" could be called "Lubelszczyzna", at least as a dynamic name. The suffix "-yzna" is another way of turning city names into regional names in Polish.]

Regarding terrain, Poland seems flat, but this flatness is quite uneven upon closer inspection. Some parts of the country are cordoned off by ranges of hills, which aren't that tall but still make a big difference to movement in comparison with open flatland.

As @SulphurAeron points out in his excellent thread, quite a lot of the areas which the map renders as flat are in fact covered with rolling hills. The recognition of those lightly hilly areas would increase the tactical depth of the map by a lot.

In Poland, there are several latitudinal belts of low hills dividing the country into historical regions. In the north, the hilly lakelands emerging from ancient glacial moraines protect the Baltic coast and Prussia from incursions from the south; in central Poland, a crest of hills runs from the Vistula through Kielce in the direction of Upper Silesia, enveloping the heartland of Małopolska, with Kraków safely tucked right between these hills and the Carpathians; the major mountain chains in the south of Poland are surrounded by numerous foothills too, and so keeping the land flat all the way until the Hungarian border just won't work.

Spoiler: A map of hilly areas in Poland (in darker green).

Then there are marshes, with some missing as well:

• There could be marshes in the mouth of the Vistula; the area was only drained when Dutch settlers arrived to do it.
• The Noteć river valley was renowned for its bogs, which protected Wielkopolska from the north.
• Similarly, in the south of Wielkopolska the Barycz and Obra rivers provided a marshy border with Śląsk.
• In the northeast, the Biebrza and Narew rivers remain a floodland wilderness up to this day.
• The Pilica river between Mazowsze and Małopolska was also mentioned as a boggy defensive line.
• Similarly, the Bzura protected Mazowsze from the west.
• In the east, the great marshlands of the Pripyat could encroach even closer on the Bug river.

Spoiler: And a handy map of the wetlands in Poland (current area).

Now I don't know much about historical vegetation, but from what I glimpsed in sources on other subjects:

• Southern Prussia and Podlasie should probably get more forest rather than woods; these areas were largely deserted after the Baltic crusades and the fall of the Yotvingians.
• The forests between Pomerania and Wielkopolska could maybe be thinned out a little, and shift towards the east. The western part of Pomerania was likely undergoing deforestation for longer, while settlement in its eastern part was younger, and thus more woodland remained.
• Similarly, the grasslands east of the mouth of the Vistula could give way to some woods; these lands were sparsely populated still.
• I'm not so sold on the amount of forest in northern Mazovia and along the southern course of the Vistula. Some of the locations on the river banks might be better off as woods than full forest; the settlements there were denser.
• Wasn't Red Ruthernia also a little bit more open landscape?
• The older centers of development in Poland (so Wielkopolska, Silesia, Kujawy) could probably see some more scattered farmland.
• There's also the dense belt of forest going across Silesia, known as Przesieka Śląska. It stretched between the Wieluń borderlands in the north towards the Oder, crossing the river and continuing to the south until it blended into the montane forests that separate Poland and Bohemia; this longitudinal stretch of forest helped form the traditional division between Upper and Lower Silesia.

Cultures

My principal observations:

• Polish shouldn't yet be the dominant culture in the northeast. These lands were hardly inhabited in 1337; Polish settlers were only beginning to move in.
• Polish should be a minority in southern Prussia though, with some areas in the southwest having been colonized by Polish groups before the Germans got there.
• There should probably already be more Slovak, Rusyn and Wallachian minorities along the northern edge of the Carpathians, even encroaching on the southeast edge of Silesia.
• And speaking of Silesia, am I alone in feeling that, in the 14th century, the regional variation of Polish was so big that singling out Silesian as distinct from the rest of the continuum seems a little bit out of place?

Raw Goods

And some observations on the goods too:

• Are only Gdańsk and Lwów responsible for the production of dyes? That's odd, Poland was one of the leading sources of cochineal prior to the Columbian exchange.
• With Poland's vernacular architecture rather partial to brick rather than stone, perhaps a higher amount of clay-producing provinces would make sense?
• It feels like cloth could be a bit more prominent, early on in the west, but taking up increased intensity later on in Red Ruthenia, where luxury fabric was made with silk imported through the Black Sea. Either way, more fiber crops would be good to represent Poland's linen and hemp production, aside from wool.
• What kind of fruit is represented on the trade map? If it's about good old apples, Poland's biggest apple farming center is in the location of Grójec.
• In Lower Silesia, the marshy Barycz river valley became the leading site for fish farming in Europe, typically associated with the city of Milicz. It might be an interesting adidition to the trade map, perhaps even as a location of its own (Milicz has other, historical and tactical grounds for seeing it as a separate location from Trzebnica, which seems to include it).
  The curious trivia here is that throughout Poland's history, freshwater fish tended to have more importance than sea fish, partially because of the relative inaccessibility of the coast and the abundance of major rivers and lakes.
• Żuromin produces wild game, but fur might actually be more fitting. The area is a marshland and beavers were frequently hunted.
• Wild game, however, might make an appearance in densely-wooded Podlasie instead of the big splotch of wheat.
• I really wish the bee industry was represented in Project Caesar, with honey and wax being an important sector of the economy, especially in earlier centuries.
• Will sugar make an appearance? The west of Poland (under Prussian administration) was where sugar beets were cultivated for the first time, and the sugar industry boomed in the latter part of the game period.
• Same with potatoes - after the Columbian exchange, potato farming swept the Polish countryside in the 18th century.
• The last one is kind of odd, but Poland was an absolute powerhouse in terms of hops farming; particularly the east of Poland around Lublin. Poland was likely the first European country to adopt hops farming and use it to flavor beer. And so: it feels weird to even type it out, but... is hops a spice?

Thanks for going through this incredibly long post!
Just for the record, this was part five, with the previous batches of feedback available here: one, two, three, four.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Hi, maybe on the previous 48 pages someone has already made a good map concerning the division of the big blob Ruthenian culture, but I'll put here my suggestion:

The need for such division is that it is obvious that in 1337 on such a huge territory with low density and control you cannot say about one unified 'culture'. As an example I see the separation of Czech/Moravian/Slovakian cultures by the developers in the game, so I applied a similar principle for splitting up the Ruthenian culture group.

Concerning the Ukrainian lands, I'm pretty sure it represents quite well both 1337 situation and further historical development.

- Galician (Halychan) and Volhynian cultures ave very obvious choise, based on Galician/Volhynian duchy (previously separate duchies). As for 1337, they should be expanded further to the west to the Calician-Volhynian border with Poland (even at the beginning of the 20th century there was a significant Ukrainian population there).

- Ruthenian culture should be expanded further to the south to the Wild Fields (but with almost no pops in 1337). Based on the Duchies of Kyiv and Pereyaslav.

- Severian culture shouldn't go so far to the north (look at the map where the Severian tribe previously lived). It is based on the Duchy of Chernihiv. Smolensk was a part of the Duchy of Severia in the GDL in the 15-16th centuries, but culturally these lands followed different paths and are not associated with the term 'Severia'. Severian culture should be limited around the rectangle Chernihiv - Gomel - Bryansk - Kursk.

- Feel free to propose better cultures for Belarusian lands. For me southern Belarus is always associated with Polesian culture and based on the Duchy of Turov-Pinsk. Northern parts can be associated with the dominant Polatsk Duchy in that region.

I also attached the map of the duchies of the Kyivan Rus for comparison.

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

Hardcore locations & provinces update:

@Pavía

Brand new locations sorted by provinces (Silesian, Kashubian and Prussian locations are written in both Polish and their own languages):

Suvalkija

1. Sejny
2. Siedlce

Ostrów (part of Masovia)

3. Wysokie Mazowieckie
4. Ostrów Mazowiecki
8. Mińsk Mazowiecki

Ciechanów (part of Masovia)

5. Maków Mazowiecki
6. Mława

Warszawa (part of Masovia)

7. Wołomin
9. Warszawa

Łomża (part of Masovia)

10. Kolno
11. Wizna (remove Goniądz)
12. Łomża

Płock (part of Masovia)

13. Grodzisk Mazowiecki

Allenstein (part of Prussia)

14. Angerburg (in Polish: Węgorzewo) new place - Lötzen (in Polish: Giżycko) in old place
15. Rößel (in Polish: Reszel) new place - Allenstein (in Polish: Olsztyn) in old place
16. Braunsberg (in Polish: Braniewo)

Marienburg (part of Prussia)

17. Elbing (in Polish: Elbląg)

Osterode (part of Prussia)

18. Soldau (in Polish: Działdowo)
19. Deutsch Eylau (in Polish: Iława)

Danzig (part of Pomerania)

20. Tiegenhof (in Kashubian: Nowi Dwór)
21. Oliva (in Kashubian: Òlëwa)

Neustadt in Westpreußen (part of Pomerania)

22. Neustadt in Westpreußen (in Kashubian: Wejrowò)

Stargard (part of Pomerania)

23. Preußisch Stargard (in Kashubian: Starogarda)
24. Konitz (in Kashubian: Chònice)

Kolberg (part of Pomerania)

25. Kolberg (in Kashubian: Kòlbrzég)

Innowrocław (part of Kujavia)

26. Aleksandrów Kujawski

Żnin (part of Greater Poland)

27. Wągrowiec

Kalisz (part of Greater Poland)

28. Ostrów Wielkopolski
29. Gostyń

Wschowa (part of Greater Poland)

30. Leszno

Zielōnŏ Gōra or Grinberg (part of Lower Silesia)​

31. Góra (in Silesian: Gůra)
33. Polkowice (in Silesian: Polkowic)
34. Bolesławiec (in Silesian: Bolesławjec)

Głogůw (part of Lower Silesia)

32. Lubin (in Silesian: also Lubin)

Gorlicy (part of Lower Silesia)

35. Zgorzelec (in Silesian: Gorlicy)
36. Lwówek Śląski (in Silesian: Ślůnski Lwůwek)

Brosłōw (part of Lower Silesia)

37. Środa Śląska (in Silesian: Ślůnsko Środa)
39. Milicz (in Silesian: also Milicz)

Wałbrzich (part of Lower Silesia)

37. Jelenia Góra (in Silesian: Jelyńo Gůra)
38. Wałbrzych (in Silesian: Wałbrzich)

Brzyg (part of Lower Silesia)

40. Strzelin (in Silesian: also Strzelin)
41. Namysłów (in Silesian: Namysłůw)
42. Nysa (in Silesian: also Nysa)

Ôpole (part of Upper Silesia)​

43. Olesno (in Silesian: Růżano Gůra)
44. Prudnik (in Silesian: Prōmnik)
46. Strzelce Opolskie (in Silesian: Wielge Strzelce)

Psczina (part of Upper Silesia)

48. Pszczyna (in Silesian: Psczina)
50. Mikołów (in Silesian: Mikołůw)
51. Tychy (in Silesian: also Tychy)

Těšín (part of Upper Silesia)

47. Bielsko (in Silesian: Biylsko)

Rybńik (part of Upper Silesia)

49. Żory (in Silesian: also Żory)
52. Katowice (in Silesian: Katowic)
61. Bieruń (in Silesian: Bjerůń)
62. Mysłowice (in Silesian: Myslowice)

Glywice (part of Upper Silesia)

53. Ruda Śląska (in Silesian: Wjelgo Ruda)
54. Zabrze (in Silesian: Zobrze)
55. Świętochłowice (in Silesian: Śwjyntochlowice)
60. Gliwice (in Silesian: Glywice)

Bytůń (part of Upper Silesia)

56. Chorzów (in Silesian: Kynighuta)
57. Siemianowice Śląskie (in Silesian: Śymjanowice)
58. Piekary Śląskie (in Silesian: Piekary)
59. Tarnowskie Góry (in Silesian: Tarnowske Gůry)

Racibōrz (part of Upper Silesia)

45. Racibórz (in Silesian: Racibōrz)
46. Wodzisław Śląski (in Silesian: Władźisłůw)

Siewierz (part of Lesser Poland)​

63. Siewierz (in Silesian: Śewjyrz)
80. Wadowice (in Silesian: Wadowic)

​

Zagłębie (part of Lesser Poland)​

66. Będzin new place
67. Sosnowiec
68. Jaworzno

Częstochowa (part of Lesser Poland)

64. Olsztyn
65. Koniecpol
79. Olkusz

Lublin (part of Lesser Poland)

69. Włodawa

Zamość (part of Lesser Poland)

70. Zamość

Leżajsk (part of Red Ruthenia)​

71. Leżajsk
72. Jarosław
74. Biłgoraj

Przemyśl (part of Red Ruthenia)

73. Kolbuszowa

Kielce (part of Lesser Poland)

75. Białobrzegi
76. Skarżysko

Sandomierz (part of Lesser Poland)

77. Włoszczowa

Kraków (part of Lesser Poland)

78. Kazimierza Wielka
82. Bochnia

Żywiec (part of Lesser Poland)

83. Biała (in Silesian: Biołŏ)

Nowy Sącz (part of Lesser Poland)

81. Sucha Beskidzka

Brand new provinces

1. Suvalkija
2. Ostrów
3. Allenstein
4. Neustadt in Westpreußen
5. Stargard
6. Kolberg
7. Zielōnŏ Gōra (or Grinberg)
8. Gorlicy
9. Wałbrzich
10. Brzyg
11. Ôpole
12. Psczina
13. Rybńik
14. Glywice
15. Bytůń
16. Racibōrz
17. Siewierz
18. Zagłębie
19. Zamość
20. Leżajsk
21. Żywiec

 

[Tan Norey]

Such a division into East Slavic cultures would be more appropriate. Or unite the three southern ones within their borders into the Ruthenian one.

 

[Rayski]

With regards to the locations map, there are two minor updates I'd like to suggest:

1) Splitting location Kielce into Chęciny and Kielce.
This is the region of Holy Cross Mountains (Góry Świętokrzyskie), which historically was an important mining centre in Poland (I wrote more about it HERE). Having two locations there would allow to include copper (which was mined in the vicinity of Chęciny) and lead (mined around Kielce) on the map. With just one location either copper or lead would be lost.

As this location is already quite big, I hope cutting it in half wouldn't pose a problem.

Chęciny - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2) Would be great to split location Opava into Racibórz (northern part) and Opava (southern part).

Historically Opava belonged to Archidiocese of Olomonuc in Moravia and was under strong influence of Moravians/Czechs (same as Krnov and Bruntal, with which it formed Opavian Silesia / Opawski Śląsk painted in blue on the map below), while Racibórz was part of Archidiocese of Wroclaw and was a Polish/Silesian town.
This division survived to modern times and marks the border between Poland and Czechia today.
If done, Opava should be Moravian, while Racibórz Polish/Silesian.

P.S. 1 - Currenly Racibórz is totally misplaced (see the orange line on the bottom-right map). The location that is currently named Racibórz should be named Kluczbork or Namysłów.
P.S. 2 - Other than the points mentioned above, I love how the shape of Upper Silesian locations align with the bottom-left map!

 

[mathuser]

@Pavía Here is a map suggestion for Estonia and Latvia. The border corrections of the original map are shown first and location additions are next to it.

The 1422 map is used as the base along with other maps as well as roads, rivers and the coast to determine the borders. Note that the border with Lithuania is further south than it should be since the 1422 map of Livonia contains land occupied after 1337. There is also a location in Pskov added from something suggested in an earlier post.

Editing in slight adjustments for the borders:

Changing from the first suggestion, Lake Võrtsjärv is entirely within Fellin to follow the route along the lake to border Dorpat, which is downstream on the Emajõgi. The portion of Riga containing Kalnzeem just north of Mitau was transferred to Mitau in 1454, so it is part of Mitau, rounding its borders a bit. Kielkond is closer to Arensburg and some of Osel-Wiek is part of the Livonian Order already, so a mutual transfer should be fine as well as not having the location border the sea tile on the opposite side of the island. Last, there was some work done on the borders of the southern and eastern locations.

Spoiler: First suggestion

Spoiler: Map adjustments for the original locations

Predominantly inland locations are moved away from the coast, so Mitau, Karkus and Weissenstein as well as Goldingen are not coastal. Also, the Gulf of Riga freezes over and there is a lower density of coastal ports to correspond to this.

In Curonia, the Venta River passes through Goldingen, Pilten and Ventspils from southeast to northwest, so Pilten has been adjusted accordingly. Mitau should be an inland location, so Kandau extends further east to meet Riga at the Riga-Strand (Rīgas Jūrmala). The Baltic coast has Ventspils bordering Grobin, but a separate location between then could be considered.

Moving eastward, Bauske no longer borders Segewold, as the Daugava River connects Kokenhusen and Riga, and roads should follow this. Movement from Bauske to Segewold would really go through Riga. Selburg is shifted south and now borders Bauske as both are south of the Daugava River. Selburg mostly follows the borders of historical Selonia except some that is in Dunaburg and Kreslau. The easternmost part between the Daugava River and Lithuania administratively belong to Dunaburg and Kreslau. Plus the distance between Dunaburg and Zarasai is not that much.

Now for Livland, Wenden, Wolmar, Ronneburg, Kokenhusen and Marienburg have been adjusted to correct their borders. Kokenhusen takes up the western portion of the Archbishopric of Riga while Ronnenburg takes up the remaining portion of the Archbishopric in the historical Vidzeme region of Latvia. Due to the size of Ronnenburg, Laudohn (Ļaudona) and Schwanenburg (Gulbene) are suggested additions.

There is a noticeable change around Marienburg as the Bishopric of Dorpat has its southern border adjusted correctly. The portion of Marienburg between Ronnenburg and Walk has been moved to Walk since it is in the Estonian part of Walk, but it could be part of Ronneburg as well since the Archbishopric of Riga controlled it, too. Marienburg still has a part of Latgalia, so a separate location for Marienhausen (Viļaka) is suggested.

For Latgalia, Kreuzburg now corresponds to the portion of the Archbishopric of Riga in Latgalia. Dunaburg no longer borders Rokiškis but still borders Zarasai. Kreslau and Rositten are mostly the same. Kreslau may need to change to Kraslau for the Baltic German name. And there is an additional location in Pskov bordering Rositten that will be addressed in the additions.

On to Estonia, Karkus and Weissenstein have moved inland. Pernau has the coastal part of Karkus, as the Amber Road runs up the Gulf of Riga from Riga through Pernau. Karkus is inland, now bordering Walk and Wolmar is adjusted south. Weissenstein is inland between Pernau (as they are connected via river), Fellin, Oberpahlen, Wessenburg, Reval and Rappel (Rapla), which has been corrected from Jarva. Valjala is in Arensburg, so the location should change its name to Peude (Pöide), and its borders now contain Kihelkonna, which was owned by the Livonian Order (but after considering that the part of Osel-Wiek is transferred to the Livonian Order, Kihelkonna can stay in Arensburg as a mutual exchange and Kihelkonna is much closer to Arensburg).

Last in Dorpat, Walk has been adjusted to the south to correct its borders. Walk has the Estonian portion of land outside the Bishopric of Dorpat added to represent future borders due to territory changes. Dorpat itself has been extended to the northern part of Walk, so it borders Fellin. Some of Neuhausen has been moved to Izborsk since Estonia annexed part of the Pechory/Petseri land after World War I. Neuhausen has been shifted upward and it still borders Lake Peipus, but that part could also be a new addition of Pölwe (Põlva).

New Locations

A: Marienhausen (Viļaka) [Lettgallen province]- location of one of the Archbishopric of Riga's castles and the northern part of Latgalia as well as a defensive location against Pskov.

B: Schwanenburg (Gulbene) [Livland province] - location of one of the Archbishopric of Riga's castles as well as manors.

C: Laudohn (Ļaudona) [Livland province] - location of one of the Archbishopric of Riga's castles as well as manors.

D: Illuxt (Ilūkste) [Semgallen province] - a strategic location, although just 24 kilometers west of Dunaburg.

E: Hasenpot (Aizpute) [Kurland province]- the actual location of the Bisopric of Courland's southern portion; the coast at Sackenhausen (Saka) could be added, but that would take a small fishing location and break up the coast there.

F: Mohn (Muhu) [Ösel province] - the location became part of Swedish Livonia in the Livonian War (1583) before Ösel did in the Torstenson War (1645), and it is a location in CK3.

G: Lais (Laiuse) [Dorpat province] - the location of one of the Livonian Order's castles and a Polish administrative district; the Swedish King Charles XII established his winter quarters there for five months, serving as the administrative center of the Swedish Empire during the Great Northern War.

H: Pölwe (Põlva) [Dorpat province] - a military crossroads where the Battle of Erastfur occured nearby, but other locations could be used to break up the Dorpat province, such as Odenpäh (Otepää) or Ringen (Rõngu).

0: Vyshgorodok [Pskov province]- as suggested from a previous post, Vyshgorodok in the modern Pytalovsky District is a border location that built up over time as a defensive location.

Other locations like Tuckum (Tukums) and Treiden (Turaida) have been suggested as well. Tuckum would be fine between Kandau, Dobeln, Mitau and Riga, but Turaida is predominantly inland and there are no ports that would correspond to it.


Edit:

Treiden is also just a few kilometers from Segewold, so maybe Salacgrīva/Salasti on the coast would be a better mention since it had a port with a three-tower castle where the Battle of Salis took place; and it is in CK3.

Ludsen (Ludza) could be split off from Rositten, too.

Some posts suggest moving the salient part of Selonia from Dunaburg to a separate province, but there does not seem to be much strategic importance in that area.


And here are some historical maps below for reference.

1422 Teutonic Map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TeutonicOrder1422.png
17th Century Swedish Map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ducatuum_Livoniae_et_Curlandiae_Nova_Tabula,_1705.jpg
1820 Russian Estonia Map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Governorate_of_Estonia_1820.jpg
1820 Russian Livonia Map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Governorate_of_Livonia_1820.jpg
1820 Russian Courland Map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Courland_governorate_1820.jpg
1820 Russian Vitebsk Map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vitebsk_governorate_1820.jpg
1841 Map with Rivers and Roads: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kohl,_Karte_der_deutsch-russischen_Ostseeprovinzen.jpg

The 1820 Russian Maps are part of a larger atlas: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Geographical_Atlas_of_the_Russian_Empire,_the_Kingdom_of_Poland,_and_the_Grand_Duchy_of_Finland_(1820–1827)

And the third map in this post below has some trade routes with rivers as well.

Some maps via Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life & Thought - "Lithuania Ascending" by SC Rowell
View attachment 1141227
View attachment 1141228
View attachment 1141229
So a couple items from the maps I've linked any game maps of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania

1. Calling it "Duchy of Lithuania" vs Grand Duchy makes no sense. I am not aware of any document referring to either Lithuania nor referred to by Lithuanians themselves of them as a "Duchy".
2. Lithuanian Kyiv controls too much territory south. The Golden Horde should have what you've labeled Bratslav and Vinnytsia
   1. Admitted these boarders especially around Vinnytsia are not static but hard to represent that in game so i'd err on giving them to the golden horde
3. Kyiv is a modern spelling I don't much care for it in context though my knowledge of transliterating from cryllic isn't sufficient to offer a better choice
4. Galicia-Volhynia controls territiory that should be alligned with lithuania
   1. Id say Dubno; Rivne; Ostoh; Korets and east ward should be part of Kyiv
   2. Ratne should be as well
5. Pskov should be allied or dependent on Lithuania
   1. "Teutonic crusaders and the ravages of other Rus'ian princes. Pskov became a virtual client of the grand duke of Lithuania from 1322 until around 1400." (pg. 22)
6. Location naming changes
   1. Lyakhavichy > Novogorodok
   2. Vawkavysk > Dubno
   3. Merkine > Alytus
   4. Ashmyany > Medininkai/Asmena - hard for me to place without rivers
   5. Hieraniony > Asmena/Kreva - same as above, hard to place without rivers
   6. Svencionys > Videniskes
7. Trade Kyiv market should extend northwest-wards; perhaps as far as Grondno

edit - fixing quote year

Looking at all the other posts, I may update this if there is time.

A couple of things I want to say. First, it's great to see the good reception that this Tinto Maps has had, and reading such warm messages keeps us pushing forward. Secondly, just by reading all your posts, we're aware that there's plenty of room to improve the region. We will work hard to review the region according to this feedback, make it even better, and fulfill your expectations about it.

Thanks again for all the hardwork and keep doing a great job.

 

[killrocker]

Such a division into East Slavic cultures would be more appropriate. Or unite the three southern ones within their borders into the Ruthenian one.
View attachment 1147324

With all respect, this map is nonsense and here is why:
It is not based on any sorces.
Such map cannot be made because we have almost no sources of poples languages from this period. Everything we can say is: spoken languages of Kyiv, Rostov and Novgorod were differnt.
It is a dialect continuum and any borders would not make much sense.
Such division is not possible anyway, because we would see the impact nowadays, or in the past, but we don't.


But thank you for this map. Didn't know about its existence. I am gonna use it as an example of map, which we can't create.

 

[Em Ay Ef]

They were still working on Iberia when posting the Italy thread, and every additional map thread is just going to increase the workload (since older threads still have new posts coming in). I wouldn't expect progress reports to be made promptly for these threads.

they only now finished Iberia and promised France next. i assume map feedback threads will be coming more or less weekly from now on, depending on workload. the Poland and Baltics thread is by far the longest of all the map threads so far, so it may take them even longer to sift through it.

 

[Rozle]

Interesting cultural mapmode

 

[Rozle]

Maybe split Ruthenian?