Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

[gidaka]

This is a free lesson worth decades of work by historians on this region they never understood so they can understand this problem and fix their games:

ChatGPT - Rus Ruthenia Russia Differences

Shared via ChatGPT

chatgpt.com

Next, I would recommend watching this wonderful historical video from professional historians to learn to distinguish between the people in this region - the creation of Kyiv, Kyivan Rus', Ruthenia, the Cossacks and the Cossack Hetmanate, Muscovy which became Russia, and hundreds of years of struggle for freedom and independence with various bloody authoritarian dictatorial regimes:

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Next, I would recommend watching this wonderful historical video from professional historians to learn to distinguish between the people in this region - the creation of Kyiv, Kyivan Rus', Ruthenia, the Cossacks and the Cossack Hetmanate, Muscovy which became Russia, and hundreds of years of struggle for freedom and independence with various bloody authoritarian dictatorial regimes:

Firstly, you are commenting an outdated post, because this region has already been reviewed and updated:

Hello, map lovers! This might be a week full of joy for you, as we will have two Tinto Maps (as we also had last week!). Today, we will share our review of the maps of Poland, Ruthenia, and the Baltic, incorporating your feedback and suggestions.

Secondly, in CK3 I would strongly support the use of Rus name only, but I see no problem and controversy here. The game timeframe is 1337-1837 and the ChatGPT literally supports the devs' naming:

Thirdly, there will be Tinto Flavour for this region, the devs have confirmed that there will be unique content for Kyiv and other regional Ukrainian/Belarusian countries. They would like to have cossack-related flavour too. We will see what they have and then make further suggestions about the Hetmanate, for example. I have already suggested the ways for formation of modern-day Ukrainian/Belarusian/Russian cultures later in the game etc.

Btw, the video is really great.

 

[gidaka]

Firstly, you are commenting an outdated post, because this region has already been reviewed and updated:


Secondly, in CK3 I would strongly support the use of Rus name only, but I see no problem and controversy here. The game timeframe is 1337-1837 and the ChatGPT literally supports the devs' naming:
View attachment 1235916

Thirdly, there will be Tinto Flavour for this region, the devs have confirmed that there will be unique content for Kyiv and other regional Ukrainian/Belarusian countries. They would like to have cossack-related flavour too. We will see what they have and then make further suggestions about the Hetmanate, for example. I have already suggested the ways for formation of modern-day Ukrainian/Belarusian/Russian cultures later in the game etc.

Btw, the video is really great.

Thank you. I believe the term Ruthenia can be used as the cultural foundation from which the Ukrainian nation could later emerge. Similarly, in the north, the culture should be Muscovites, from which Russia would eventually form (as it happened historically).

Developers need to understand that there were no "russians" in the Middle Ages as they depict in Crusader Kings 3, who then supposedly migrated north. The Muscovites named their country "Russia" by the decree of Peter the Great, using the Greek variant. Before that, they were known as Muscovites.

Therefore:
1) Either before the formation of such nations as Ukrainians/Belarusians/Russians, the developers should use the general term that designated the entire people of Kyivan Rus' listed in the messages above (and these are not russians as in СK3). The developers should have used this option in the game СK3.
2) Or in the case of Russians and Ukrainians, call them local terms Ruthenians and Muscovites, who form Ukraine and Russia, respectively.

 

[Cuke]

Thank you. I believe the term Ruthenia can be used as the cultural foundation from which the Ukrainian nation could later emerge. Similarly, in the north, the culture should be Muscovites, from which Russia would eventually form (as it happened historically).

Developers need to understand that there were no "russians" in the Middle Ages as they depict in Crusader Kings 3, who then supposedly migrated north. The Muscovites named their country "Russia" by the decree of Peter the Great, using the Greek variant. Before that, they were known as Muscovites.

You do realize you're going round in circles, right? As of early XIV century, everyone from the Carpathians to the White Sea were Russians (in greek) or Ruthenians (in latin). This thread is for the Lithuanian part only, as depicted by the maps. If you want to discuss the Muscovite side - there are two other threads for that.

Therefore:
1) Either before the formation of such nations as Ukrainians/Belarusians/Russians, the developers should use the general term that designated the entire people of Kyivan Rus' listed in the messages above (and these are not russians as in СK3). The developers should have used this option in the game СK3.
2) Or in the case of Russians and Ukrainians, call them local terms Ruthenians and Muscovites, who form Ukraine and Russia, respectively.

It has already been done.

 

[gidaka]

You do realize you're going round in circles, right? As of early XIV century, everyone from the Carpathians to the White Sea were Russians (in greek) or Ruthenians (in latin). This thread is for the Lithuanian part only, as depicted by the maps. If you want to discuss the Muscovite side - there are two other threads for that.

It has already been done.

This is good. From the very beginning, my posts were about the history of this region in the games I played, developed by Paradox (CK2, CK3, EU4, Victoria 3) so that the same historical mistake would not happen here, when the developers do not distinguish between these 3 names and make everyone russians, although this term began to be used only after Peter I renamed Muscovy and did not apply to Belarusians and Ukrainians (this is the answer to your first question)

 

[Linbot#6018]

Firstly, you are commenting an outdated post, because this region has already been reviewed and updated:


Secondly, in CK3 I would strongly support the use of Rus name only, but I see no problem and controversy here. The game timeframe is 1337-1837 and the ChatGPT literally supports the devs' naming:
View attachment 1235916

Thirdly, there will be Tinto Flavour for this region, the devs have confirmed that there will be unique content for Kyiv and other regional Ukrainian/Belarusian countries. They would like to have cossack-related flavour too. We will see what they have and then make further suggestions about the Hetmanate, for example. I have already suggested the ways for formation of modern-day Ukrainian/Belarusian/Russian cultures later in the game etc.

Btw, the video is really great.

Please stop trying to present randomly generated chat gpt text as a source. This is actively damaging to the integrity of the conversation.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Please stop trying to present randomly generated chat gpt text as a source. This is actively damaging to the integrity of the conversation.

If you don’t see the context, I made a screenshot from the link in the message I replied to. Just to show that even his ChatGPT link says the opposite and there is nothing to complain about.
The conversation here was over months ago.

 

[Linbot#6018]

If you don’t see the context, I made a screenshot from the link in the message I replied to. Just to show that even his ChatGPT link says that everything is OK how the devs handled it and there is nothing to complain about.
The conversation here was over months ago.

Whether chat gpt supports how the devs handled it, is as about as relevant to the conversation as whether my cat supports how the devs handled it, that is to say, not in the slightest, and presenting this information to other people and expecting to be taken seriously is silly.

 

[bokorthedust]

Whether chat gpt supports how the devs handled it, is as about as relevant to the conversation as whether my cat supports how the devs handled it, that is to say, not in the slightest, and presenting this information to other people and expecting to be taken seriously is silly.

I beg to differ, that cat is your liege lord and what he or she meows about this subject, stands.

 

[Chieron]

Whether chat gpt supports how the devs handled it, is as about as relevant to the conversation as whether my cat supports how the devs handled it, that is to say, not in the slightest, and presenting this information to other people and expecting to be taken seriously is silly.

Come on. Gidaka started it with a Chat GPT "course", Kotyk just used the same tool to show that they were wrong. And the information discussed is not in question in any case. If this were specialized original research, condemning AI sources would make more sense.

 

[gidaka]

I did not know how game development works at Paradox, and I wrote this post based on games that have already been released. I will explain this with examples:

CK2 - Initially, the developers divided Kyivan Rus into two completely separate and unrelated states and two distinct cultures: Russians in the north and Ruthenians in the south. Later, they finally looked into historical books and made them into one culture. However, instead of calling them Rusyns, they became Russians (as I mentioned earlier, this term should only be used after Peter I declared that the Muscovites would become "Russians" starting from 1721).

CK3 - The developers removed Kyivan Rus from CK2 and replaced it with the Russian Empire in the Middle Ages!!! The culture remained unchanged, so they were still called Russians. This means that in a game about the Middle Ages, I am supposed to play as Russians in the Russian Empire (which is a historical absurdity).

Victoria 3 - For some reason, the developers are unable to find historical maps of Ukraine from this period, even though there are plenty. Firstly, the demographic distribution of Ukrainians is incorrect. Secondly, Ukraine itself is missing cities that were regional centers, for example, Katerynoslav. Ukraine is the only country in Europe that, instead of cities, has huge empty chunks on the map, while the rest of Europe is well-detailed. I'll even leave a map here as an example:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B0_%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%97_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8_1871.jpg

EU4 - The game has no mentions of Ukraine or the Hetmanate (you can check the YouTube video I linked earlier). However, it was already present on historical maps. For example, here is a map from 1648:

Name of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

***

If, in this game, the territory of Kyiv has the Ruthenian culture that can transform into Ukrainians, and the territory of Muscovy has Muscovites that can later form Russians, I believe this will be the first game in decades where the developers finally fix this. In that case, I will preorder the game.

 

[Paparrde]

The Breadbasket of Latvia

It is strange and incorrect that in recent feedback the most fertile soils in the Livonian state produce lumber and wild game (highlighted below). Semigallia lowlands are considered the Latvian breadbasket, therefore it needs at least one or two locations producing wheat.

1. Here is map of modern Latvia's farmland size based on economic significance. We can see that agriculture is mostly concentrated in Semigallia.

2. Here is a soil map from The Latvian National Encyclopedia, where the brown-colored soil between Dobele and Bauska is most fertile.

I suggest changing raw material of Mitau, Bauske, or Doblen to wheat to better represent Semigallia's agricultural potential.