Tinto Talks #16 - 12th of June 2024

[Vispian]

I DO NOT want characters being a mandatory way of interacting with other mechanics. I would very much prefer national foci over this. I will never care about any of these guys, and they will die every twenty years and have annoying events about them. This is a hateable and pointless system. The "cabinet size" represents nothing in real life, all of them are Swiss army knives able to do the same job and it is all really pointless.

Kinda like EU4 then. You get loads of annoying event about advisors there, they die every 20 years and are a key game mechanic.

Not really swiss army knifes when they all have the different stats and will perform better on different jobs of which there is more than any other paradox game. You say cabinet size is not realistic, okay but then your argument about ministers being able to do the same job is literally defunct. Since historically and even now ministers often do the same job and switch jobs. Cabinet Ministers were always in flux and changing positions.

So how is it pointless? Do you really care about advisors in EU4 and arnt they all swiss army knifes since they dont matter and can just be re-rolled until you get the buff you wanted. Here you can have whatever buff you want but how good they are depends on their stats.

 

[Bawhoppen]

So can I assume in most cases the buttons on provinces that were in EU4, like "raise/lower autonomy" or "harsh treatment" etc. etc. etc. will be usually be cabinet actions instead?

 

[RomanTheNotARoman]

Will there be negatives to having high population, low development locations?
Before the invention of the sewer system, during the industrial revolution, cities were singlehandedly killing nations with their filth.
Perhaps high development could correlate to the infrastructure of sanitary facilities in a city.
Also more broadly, will there be more depth to the health of a nation outside of the devastating plagues? Like syphilis.
Countries like China (for example) should get bonuses that reduce the negative effects of supposed high population, low development locations due to inventions like innoculation that improved public health.
Discoveries like innoculation of cowpox to prevent smallpox (Edward Jenner), the development of the modern sewer (Joseph Bazalgette). Maybe that last one is a bit late on the history scale.
My point is I think that medicine shouldn't be undervalued especially when populations now exist.

 

[RohenTahir]

We need system to expell one people out and invite other group. Just like it happened in Spain with Muslims (who fled to colonies\Morocco\Ottoman Constantinople) and Jews (who fled to Poland), or Frace expelled Hugenots who went England and Prussia or to Sweden or many religious miniorites fled to PLC (many Scottish or Dutch actually fled during reformation time and Golden Religious Freedom time in PLC) or Russia "colonizing" Pontic Steppe, Crimea region mostly ("New Russia").
We should be able to:
1. Expell some group of ppl from our country
2. Expell some group of ppl from one province to antoher (including our colonies)- it could be achived by creating "chain": you expell from one, attract in another province\region creating pops contorled flow.
3. Chose not only province to expell but whole certain groups (like another nation, religious group, defeated rebels) on country scale.
4. Being Horde or other "barbaric" country to mass killing pops, Teutonic Knights as "national religious zealots" eliminated most of Old Pruss ppl by kill or sell and attracted german settlers on their place for example, not mentioning hordes "achivements" (Timur and his mountains od skulls are comming to you Middle East x.x).

 

[Morthranduil]

I sincerely hope the only way of affecting migration isn't via characters.

I do not want that. I also really dislike the UI, and Johan saying this is the style they will go with really damaged my hype for the game.

I hate console accomodation and scalability by the way! I do not like the way any modern Paradox game looks.

Not writing this to cope or hate, but I just want you guys to know:

• I DO NOT want characters being a mandatory way of interacting with other mechanics.
• I WANT a more rustic, more readable and less Victoria 3/Crusader Kings 3 looking UI.
• I STILL DO NOT LIKE 3D models,

I just wanna say that your comments in this thread come across as full of negativity and it doesn't feel constructive or inspiring.

I have no dog in this one, just wanted to give you an advice, but I'd encourage you to wrap your suggestions with more positivity, and focus on what changes you'd like to see, rather than what you don't want and kills your hype.

We should also keep in mind that the devs also have a certain vision in their heads for the game, and might prefer certain things to be a certain way. No point in arguing when they stand that ground, I feel.

 

[Pleonast]

you don't play the king, you play the country.

Can we assign a task for the King?

 

[UrzaVsMishra]

I sincerely hope the only way of affecting migration isn't via characters. If it is, this game will feel as politically deep as CK3 and I do not want that. I also really dislike the UI, and Johan saying this is the style they will go with really damaged my hype for the game. I hate console accomodation and scalability by the way! I do not like the way any modern Paradox game looks. Imperator will be the last Paradox game that looks somewhat satisfying. I know they will never change the modern UI or the weird 3D models but meh, I can still play it, graphics aren't important. I played CK3 and loved it before they added all the meaningless disconnected extra screens and minigames.

Still I liked everything so far until the last two weeks. This won't be my dream game, but it will still be a great game to me. Hyped about the migration TT, as POP's and POP movements are the one thing I love in all PDX games. The migration and culture TT's might still turn this game into the best game ever made.

Not writing this to cope or hate, but I just want you guys to know:

• I DO NOT want characters being a mandatory way of interacting with other mechanics. I would very much prefer national foci over this. I will never care about any of these guys, and they will die every twenty years and have annoying events about them. This is a hateable and pointless system. The "cabinet size" represents nothing in real life, all of them are Swiss army knives able to do the same job and it is all really pointless.
• I WANT a more rustic, more readable and less Victoria 3/Crusader Kings 3 looking UI. This one is terrible, and I hope the release version is as far away from this as possible. At the very least stop making everything navy or blue, I would play CK3 or V3 if I wanted that samey UI. Even different forums on this site have more variation, geez.
• I STILL DO NOT LIKE 3D models, I hope they will get better, since it's obvious that you guys are deep in the sunk cost fallacy and we will never ever see them scrapped. So just letting you know that you have a long way to go and a million assets to make for it to be as good as possible, and I hope the throne room stuff will get smaller too.

No offense to any of the developers or artists, you are quite crushing it, but I think these are important for a lot of the fans. The visual things are moddable and not that important, but characters being way too important will move this game too far away from the tried and loved Europa Universalis formula, and it will make the game a lot more similar to other strategy games, removing one of the things that makes this series unique. Victoria did all three of these mistakes too, and I think not all of your games have to be Crusader Kings 3.

A very vocal, very minority (literally just you, bro) opinion. There's a lot of hate here for a paradox game that literally doesn't exist yet, maybe give it some time to breathe and smile a lil bit ok?

 

[Fatherlorris]

A very vocal, very minority (literally just you, bro) opinion. There's a lot of hate here for a paradox game that literally doesn't exist yet, maybe give it some time to breathe and smile a lil bit ok?

I don't hate characters, but god do I hate this mindset.

'woah there bro, less negativity, positive vibes only man, smile a bit, relax'

Airing concerns and being critical is good, having a forum be a HR positive vibes only baby daycare wah wah they said something mean zoomer slop factory, isn't.

 

[RE13BT]

Im curious about characters.
Does it means, for example, when we have a new colony, we get to chose a viceroy for that colony from a pool of characters the represents the aristocrazy of our country?

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

You hate UI being usable on computers with a larger screen than a Macintosh Classic, you hate being able to play the game without searching on the wiki which parts of the UI is actually a button, and you absolutely love a feature (pop movement*) PDS never got right? What?

I do not really hate scalability with a passion, but I do not think the excuses make this absolutely tasteless UI design right. The last three Paradox releases had the same navy blue, glossy, soulless and ugly UI that wastes a ton of space and is inconvenient to use. I think they shouls just put scaling and consoles a bit down the priority list.

*Stellaris pop movement took years of complaint by players to become ok-tier, imperator slave pops spend most of their time leaving their province and disrupting the production of goods, and vicky 3 migration is changed with every update because it sucks. I've not played vicky 2 but I hear it works (-ish) only because its basically hardcoded.

Seeing culture and religion maps change and changing them is like half my fun, do not strictly think of it as pop movement.

Kinda like EU4 then. You get loads of annoying event about advisors there, they die every 20 years and are a key game mechanic.

You get events granting you advisors, they are not as core as here (they are pluses to things you can attain outside of advisors, whereas it seems you need a minister to expel people here, so there are mechanics locked behind characters) and I do not love that system all that much too. It is just less bad than this.

Not really swiss army knifes when they all have the different stats and will perform better on different jobs of which there is more than any other paradox game. You say cabinet size is not realistic, okay but then your argument about ministers being able to do the same job is literally defunct. Since historically and even now ministers often do the same job and switch jobs. Cabinet Ministers were always in flux and changing positions.

All of them can do all the tasks, their number is completely arbitrary and does not represent anything. They are not strictly treasurers or religious advisors or anything specific, they are just a bunch of dudes who do a bunch of stuff. That is not good design. Also I do not see how anything is defunct you gotta connect your thinking here.

So how is it pointless? Do you really care about advisors in EU4 and arnt they all swiss army knifes since they dont matter and can just be re-rolled until you get the buff you wanted. Here you can have whatever buff you want but how good they are depends on their stats.

All of them do one job and they are divided into categories. Here they are all the same thing and all do the same thing. Just do national foci at this point, because it is and feels better.

I just wanna say that your comments in this thread come across as full of negativity and it doesn't feel constructive or inspiring.

I have no dog in this one, just wanted to give you an advice, but I'd encourage you to wrap your suggestions with more positivity, and focus on what changes you'd like to see, rather than what you don't want and kills your hype.

We should also keep in mind that the devs also have a certain vision in their heads for the game, and might prefer certain things to be a certain way. No point in arguing when they stand that ground, I feel.

I thought more people would agree with me, but apparently not. It seems people love seeing characters and doing stuff with them, but to me the depersonalization of history and rejecting individual centric models is the charm of EU4. Well, what can I do. I hope the devs don't get hurt or anything, I really like what they are doing but the last two dev diaries made me a salty old man.

A very vocal, very minority (literally just you, bro) opinion. There's a lot of hate here for a paradox game that literally doesn't exist yet, maybe give it some time to breathe and smile a lil bit ok?

If you look at my comments on any other Tinto Talk before last week you will see me using the word love thrice a sentence. Though I have really bad mouthburn from Victoria 3 and I have come to think that expressing my dislikes firmly and sternly is good feedback.

 

[Sevonen]

Pope might be upset if you employ an heretic as a Catholic ruler.

spell check: a heretic

 

[UrzaVsMishra]

I don't hate characters, but god do I hate this mindset.

'woah there bro, less negativity, positive vibes only man, smile a bit, relax'

Airing concerns and being critical is good, having a forum be a HR positive vibes only baby daycare wah wah they said something mean zoomer slop factory, isn't.

Lmfao sorry that's what you took from that, I merely mean that he used "I hate" about 69 times and he's literally never played the final product.
Being critical is cool, but he didn't really provide constructive feedback. Felt more like a bitch sesh.

 

[UrzaVsMishra]

I do not really hate scalability with a passion, but I do not think the excuses make this absolutely tasteless UI design right. The last three Paradox releases had the same navy blue, glossy, soulless and ugly UI that wastes a ton of space and is inconvenient to use. I think they shouls just put scaling and consoles a bit down the priority list.

Seeing culture and religion maps change and changing them is like half my fun, do not strictly think of it as pop movement.

You get events granting you advisors, they are not as core as here (they are pluses to things you can attain outside of advisors, whereas it seems you need a minister to expel people here, so there are mechanics locked behind characters) and I do not love that system all that much too. It is just less bad than this.

All of them can do all the tasks, their number is completely arbitrary and does not represent anything. They are not strictly treasurers or religious advisors or anything specific, they are just a bunch of dudes who do a bunch of stuff. That is not good design. Also I do not see how anything is defunct you gotta connect your thinking here.

All of them do one job and they are divided into categories. Here they are all the same thing and all do the same thing. Just do national foci at this point, because it is and feels better.

I thought more people would agree with me, but apparently not. It seems people love seeing characters and doing stuff with them, but to me the depersonalization of history and rejecting individual centric models is the charm of EU4. Well, what can I do. I hope the devs don't get hurt or anything, I really like what they are doing but the last two dev diaries made me a salty old man.

If you look at my comments on any other Tinto Talk before last week you will see me using the word love thrice a sentence. Though I have really bad mouthburn from Victoria 3 and I have come to think that expressing my dislikes firmly and sternly is good feedback.

I do agree with expression of opinion, and I also dislike Vicky 3 pretty completely. I find the hate for 3d portraits amusing, but they also have suggestions for improvement.
Didn't really get that same from your original post.
This one, however, significantly more well reasoned and thought out. I agree with many of your sentiments.

 

[Zazzzzar]

Just do national foci at this point, because it is and feels better.

I'm confused at this request. Generic national foci like you see in HOI4 when you run out of unique ones? Are you saying you would prefer to see it even more like a button you set and forget?

I understand criticising a feature that doesn't go far enough depth-wise but when a feature offers more than you want (even if the extra stuff doesn't mean much to you personally) I don't understand the request for less features. It seems like Cabinet Actions function exactly the same how you would want a national focus to work but PC's is wrapped up in a "ministers taking action" aesthetic with more depth like minister skills and the potential for storytelling/events.

Even if the extra stuff isn't for you, it seems weird to request the devs to offer less for players to interact with.

 

[LordHoth]

1 - no (its implied in the cost of court)
2 - no
3 - yes atm, but in theory it can be limited.

It would be more historical I think for certain cabinet positions / actions to be limited, but then it's tough to hard code what these limits should be.

Again, looking at it from a miniscule detail point of view, in historical bishoprics, the bishop would determine that secular administration would be headed by one primary person (stiftsvogt), but of course their lands could be divided into several stifts as well (more an exception than the rule). But the stiftsvogt could of course assign assistants in secular administration (the primary assistant would have been the "stift writer"), while the official episcopal administration would be more emphasising matters both spiritual and temporal (a temporal lord would, at the same time, not be involved in the determination of the spiritual matters).

I would think therefore that dependent on the type of a country (primarily secular or temporal lord) there could be some limitation on how many "secular" vs "temporal" folks there could be in the cabinet.

 

[bokorthedust]

spell check: a heretic

The h is silent

 

[bokorthedust]

I'm confused at this request. Generic national foci like you see in HOI4 when you run out of unique ones? Are you saying you would prefer to see it even more like a button you set and forget?

I understand criticising a feature that doesn't go far enough depth-wise but when a feature offers more than you want (even if the extra stuff doesn't mean much to you personally) I don't understand the request for less features. It seems like Cabinet Actions function exactly the same how you would want a national focus to work but PC's is wrapped up in a "ministers taking action" aesthetic with more depth like minister skills and the potential for storytelling/events.

Even if the extra stuff isn't for you, it seems weird to request the devs to offer less for players to interact with.

I think he means foci like in Vicky 2.

 

[MelKaven]

Will these be unique governments like the Chrysanthemum throne and the Shogunate?

 

[Aart]

How does employing a ruler exactly work? Can the ruler or whole ruling house be changed via events or even decisions? Like when my ruler dies and he doesn't have any suitable heir, will I be able to choose a ruler out of some pool? is there a way how I or the other countries may get involved in this?
Or even employing a ruler for other countries, like putting a puppet or your relative on the throne?

If you (as a ruler) employ a heretic (as an advisor)

 

[lordhartmn]

Maybe I missed the information but developement represent the capacity to get more pop into a province/location (1% being tents and 100% skyscraper basicaly if I understand) but does the province/location size matter for "max popoulation" ?