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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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Is there a reason the White Sea is composed of several tiles, while the Gulf of Finland isn't ?

Will some lakes be navigable ? If so, is the absence of tiling confirmation that Ladoga isn't ?
 
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Where are the Moksha Mordvins and Mansi/Khanty peoples of the Ural Mountains?
 
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There's plenty to chew on here I love this.

The first Tinto Maps to show uncolonized land! Though I am a little disappointed there's no Finnish tags at all. Will there be a way for the Finnish people to have some agency over the course of history, or are they fated to be punching bags between Russian and Scandinadian forever? Also it seems much of the uncolonized land has Russian location names. Is this just a placeholder, a deliberate choice, or a necessary limitation of lack of data on the indigenous toponymy?

I see Perm's placeholder "Expert Scholar" dynasty has been replaced with "Cherdyn". Good to see progress on that front.

I see large wastelands like Karelia are still part of provinces. Mixed opinion there. It looks real nice if you take it as a map of administrative divisions, but it could be confusing if the Province map mode is one players are expected to spend a lot of time looking at for strategic decisions.

And we really need more granularity in climate than just "continental". Moscow and St Petersburg have no business having the same climate as Prague!

Finally, I would like to ask what the small spread of Tengriist pops on the religion mapmade represents. They do not align well with the culture map, and whatever the "Pomors" are they don't seem related to the steppe people, and some are in locations that are marked Novgorodian on the culture map! Is this an oversight, or is there historical basis for some Russians in the far backwater of Novgorod abandoning Christianity and "going native" in their religious practices.
 
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i think Moscow had a bit of luck too , there was a time Smolensk felt as the one with highest potential to unify Rus lands but they got a bad streak of events and wars.

also i feel Russia should somewhat be like HRE because i know this might create a spark but
Russia = gathering of Rus entities under a tsar, the equivalent of Reich to the germans centralised like under Ivan the terrible or not like under Rurikids. the tsars over such gathering of Rus states were called "Tsars of all of Russias" this included those in kyevu (in Ruthenian to not start a war).
so there was a system , lost ground to reclaim like the whole south , tsars to elect and chance to unify the gathering of states into 1 . so i feel there is potential to have a kind of chineses or japanese like system mandate of heaven to be used here in a new way ? like the one chosen to be Tsar of all of Russias get to lead to Russian coalition of states and later in the game anyone with enough mandate can unify the nation and form Russia
 
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Suzdal was a separate principality in 1337, under Prince Konstantin. He was given Nizhny Novgorod in 1341, after the death of Ivan Kalita.

Dmitrov, Kostroma, Beloozero, Mologa, Starodub, Nizhny Novgorod should all be a part of the yoke.

For the cultures, I suggest the following six East Slavic cultures, with very mixed borders:
- Novgorodian (violet)
- Muscovite (cool green)
- Polotskian (western half of warm green)
- Chernigovan (eastern half of warm green)
- Kyivan (light brown)
- Galician (yellow)

1719581398254.png


Having wheat in Tver and western Muscovy in wrong. Wheat was more common around Vladmir, Suzdal, Starodub, the region that is called Opolye.

The Karachev dynasty is weird. Every ruler there successfully claimed to be a Rurikovich, even if the modern Y-DNA analysis proved them wrong.

I'll go through the map of provinces later and provide detailed feedback. Oh boy, does it need some.
 
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Oh yeah another question, what are the criteria for deciding what areas are impassable wasteland and what are not? Mountains make sense, but are the forest wastelands in Russia because of low population or something similar? The White Karelian wasteland looks like it exists to also help Sweden form historical borders with Russia, as the wasteland's western border seems to follow those.
The usual criteria are 'very little population lives here' + 'it is impossible to move an army through here'. From there, it may vary from wasteland to wasteland.
 
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Could you provide a screenshot of the political map with rivers?

Could you add the principalities of Mari?
Can the Permian culture be divided into two?
Zyrians
 
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Looks great!
I have just one critique: It seems that you have portrayed all Karelian people as Orthodox in 1337. In my opinion, this is not correct.
At least two academic sources – Shepherd and Lind – agree that the Karelians living in Novgorod's territory (or sphere of influence) were mostly pagan at that time. Novgorod did not actively convert Karelians to Christianity before the late 14th century.
Shepherd: "Finally, at the end of the fourteenth century, Novgorod's actions indicate that it began to see the wisdom of instituting Karelian conversion policies." Lind: "This confessionally motivated campaign from the Swedes does not seem to have incited the Novgorodians into immediate action on account of the religious affinities of their Karelians. Rather these were left unattached as far as Russian Orthodoxy was concerned. This laissez-faire attitude, however, changed at the end of the 14th century."
Additionally, Lind writes that Karelian paganism remained strong until the 16th century, despite Novgorod's conversion efforts: "The Karelians still used their pagan altars; they still had their pagan priests (arpas); they did not observe the Christian fasts and feasts; and when their women gave birth to children, they first summoned pagan shamans who gave the newly born pagan names before they called upon the Orthodox Priests."
On the other hand, there is evidence of Christian burial customs in Karelia as early as the 12th century. Koivisto writes: "We can ascertain that after burying their dead in a northward orientation with furnished graves, people started to bury the deceased in a westward orientation without grave goods by the end of the 13th century. This latter practice is generally seen as reflecting the Christian burial custom."
To conclude, I think that Karelia in 1337 should have a mix of pagan and Orthodox pops. Unfortunately, I don't know the exact number of pagan and Christian people in Karelia at that time, and I doubt that anyone knows it, because there are few written records about medieval Karelia. But making Karelia 100% Orthodox would be inaccurate, in my view.

Sources:
Shepherd, D. J. (2005). A Brief Survey of Views On Christianization in Karelia. Russian History (Pittsburgh), 32(1–4), 491–511. https://doi.org/10.1163/187633105X00277
Lind, J. H. (2004). The politico-religious landscape of medieval Karelia. Fennia - International Journal of Geography, 182(1), 3–11. Retrieved from https://fennia.journal.fi/article/view/3743
Trade Routes and their Significance in the Christianization of Karelia by Andreas Koivisto. 2006, Slavica Helsingensia 27, The Slavicization of the Russian North. Ed. by Juhani Nuorluoto. https://blogs.helsinki.fi/slavica-helsingiensia/files/2019/11/sh27-Koivisto.pdf
 
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What more can you tell about the mechanics of the Tatar Yoke?
Not yet, we will talk more in detail about the game's content in the future, I'm sorry.
 
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Cultures
View attachment 1154688
Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.
I think you should definitely add Chuvash culture!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvash_people

They are Turkic-speaking but Orthodox Christian in faith. They were settled rather than nomad tatars

1719581862491.png
 
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Before I wondered how the lack of non-ferrous metals (copper, gold, silver, lead) in Russian region will be represented in Stellaris 2 Project Caesar. It was quite a problem in XV century and later, when The Great Duchy of Muscovy had to rely on trade with Livonians and other western merchants, so finding minerals in the Ural mountains was a huge deal. Indeed, I see there is little to no of those precious resources.
 
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"Time to start flame about Eastern Slavic cultures. 3 second before start of flame... 2... 1... go!"
Let's go! :)

I'm truly uncertain about the cultures... Don't they look far-fetched? The Rutenian culture is incredibly important. It allows us to simulate the real historical process, showing how the Ukrainian and Belarusian identities developed in western Rus. But what are the Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian supposed to symbolize? Moscow's expansion is only beginning, so why are the surrounding principalities, even hostile ones like Tver, also labeled as Muscovite? Honestly, this feels like a gamey choice, and I believe the Caesar project shines best when it leans on history, not when it tries to fit history into gameplay.

We have a wealth of historical data indicating that in the 14th century, the Eastern and Western Rus languages began to diverge into two distinct languages. From the Western language, Ukrainian and Belarusian would later emerge. However, there was no significant split in the Eastern Rus language. Yes, there were various dialects, but the differences were minor.

I understand that portraying the cultures of 14th century Rus is a complex issue. Due to the assimilation efforts by Moscow later on, many cultures did not survive to the present day. But wouldn't unified Rus culture be better choise? Similar to the case with Ruthenia? This would be a simplification, but a logical one, unlike the invented cultures of the Muscovite, Severian, and Novgorodian. It might disrupt the balance, as there would be a large, unified culture in this region from the start. But wouldn't that make the region more unique? And this uniqueness would be dictated by history, not gameplay reasons, which I see as a win. We already have a historical political division in the region. Is it worth putting an artificial cultural division on top of it?

As an alternative, I would make several cultures in the region, but mix them up in the locations. We will take the peoples who lived on this territory before the emergence of Kievan Rus, and show that during its short existence, the principality did not assimilate all these people (as in reality it was). There will be several cultures in the region, and while playing in this region, the player will have to assimilate them. But the player will face this task when playing for any principality, be it Moscow, Tver or Novgorod. And it won’t be that Novgorod will start with its unique Novgorodian culture, and Moscow with its Muscovite...

In any case, I am not a historian, just an enthusiast. But as someone with a great interest in this region, the cultures currently presented in the game seem contradictory and illogical to me... Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could provide a better alternative.
 
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View attachment 1155123
Is there a reason the White Sea is composed of several tiles, while the Gulf of Finland isn't ?

Will some lakes be navigable ? If so, is the absence of tiling confirmation that Ladoga isn't ?
1. Different stages of development (the different shapes of sea tiles are something already noticeable in previous Tinto Maps, there is a planned task to homogenize them).
2. Maybe some, but usually not; our criteria is 'Would an oceanic fleet be able to come into this sea tile?' If not, then it won't be connected, as it would cause several problematic issues. It's already connected for markets and trading purposes through the rivers, though.
 
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