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Tinto Maps #8 - 28th of June 2024 - Russia

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Maps! This week we’ll be taking a look at Russia!

As an introductory note, we’re just considering today the ‘Russian core’, which in 1337 comprised the different Russian Principalities, as far as the White Sea to the north, and the Ural Mountains to the east. The lands that would later be incorporated into the Russian Empire will be covered in future Tinto Maps (otherwise, we would have to cover like… 1/8th? of the land mass in just one DD).

Countries
Countries.png

Russia is divided into several Principalities in 1337. The dominant one probably is Muscovy, as its Grand Prince, Ivan I Danilovich ‘Kalita’ (‘Moneybag’) is also Prince of Nizhny Novgorod and Kostroma, and of Novgorod (by election, in this case). He also holds the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir, bestowed by the Khan of the Golden Horde, which makes him the ruler enforcing the ‘Tatar Yoke’ over other Russian Principalities (which in our game is represented through an IO; the coloring of the different countries is different tones of yellow as they are tributaries of the Yoke). The other main power in the region is the Grand Republic of Novgorod, with a completely different institutional structure, that allows them to pick their rulers. Their power comes from being the main trading power between the Baltic Sea and the Russian region, and it’s the overlord of two border countries, the Principality of Pskov, and the County of Oreshek, a buffer country in Karelia, as agreed with Sweden after a recent war. Several lands to the north and east are not owned by any country. As a final note, you may also see that Lithuania is the overlord of some of the principalities, some of them directly through Gediminid rulers (Polotsk or Vitebsk), while other over Rurikovich rulers (Smolensk or Rzhev).

Muscovy.png

Tatar Yoke.png

The starting diplomatic of Muscovy and the Tatar Yoke IO, for the sake of clarity.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Several branches of the House of Rurik rule over the Russian lands. Fun fact: we have 18 different branches portrayed in the game. The exceptions are a few principalities, and the ruler of Karelia, Prince Narimantas of the Lithuanian Gediminids. Also, the 'Cherdyn' and 'Vyatka' are randomly assigned dynasties, as we haven't been able to get the data for those countries on 1337.

Locations
Locations.png

We’re showing a less detailed region this week because, well, Russia is big. Feel free to ask for more detailed screenshots of specific areas, and I’ll try to provide them. We’re also showing some parts of the Steppe, Finland, and Kola, because of the scale of the map; take them as ‘unavoidable spoilers’, as we’ll talk more in-depth about them in future Tinto Maps.

Provinces
Provinces.png

The provinces of Russia. As usual, suggestions are welcomed!

Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain map modes. As discussed in previous Tinto Maps, we’ll read carefully your feedback, as we have plenty of room to polish them!

Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.

Religions
Religion.png

Eastern Orthodoxy is dominant in the region, although there are other religions in the area, as well; take ‘Animist’, ‘Tengrist’, and ‘Shamanist’ as wide categories, as we’d like to add a bit more granularity for them (although that will come later this year, don’t expect them to be added in the coming Tinto Maps, but maybe on the later ones). We’ve already seen some posts asking about Slavic Paganism; up until now, we’ve considered the Russian people to be Christianized, even if it was a more or less superficial process. If you’d like us to add this religion and some percentage of the population adhering to it, then I’d ask you for specific sources that could help us portray it (so, isolated references to it being followed here or there won’t be helpful, while academic sources saying ‘up to X% of the population was following Slavic rites’ might very much be).

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Quite different resources to other regions previously shown, with plenty of Lumber, Fur, and Wild Game in this region. I’ve also extended a bit the screenshot to the east, so you can see the mineral richnesses of the Ural Mountains, with plenty of locations with Copper, Iron, Gold, and Lead, making it quite juicy to colonize.

Markets
Markets.png

The counter to the richness of the natural resources of the region is its integration into the different markets, which at the start of the game are centered around Novgorod, Moscow, and Kazan. Fully exploiting the economic possibilities of Russia will therefore require effort and patience.

Country and Location population
Country Population.png

Location Population SW.png

Location Population SE.png


Location Population NE.png

Location Population NW.png

Not many people inhabit the Russian core, approximately 6M in total. This poses a series of challenges regarding the expansion of any Russian country. Also, we've divided into 4 different maps of the location population of the region, to make it possible to visualize. A side note: you might note that the population of NW Novgorod and Karelia is calculated a bit differently. That's because Johan took care of drawing the Scandinavian map in an early stage of development, and the Content Design team took over the rest of Russia at a later stage when we had already refined a bit more our population calculation methods. This means that when we do the feedback pass after this Tinto Maps, in a few weeks, we'll homogenize the style, as well.

And this is all for today! We hope that you’ll find it interesting, and give us great feedback! Next week we’re traveling to Carpathia and the Balkans! See you!
 
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While they were in many ways a quasi-ethnic group, I assume they will just be represented as a social class.
I would disagree. There is even a book describing intricacies of specifically Cossac culture(Тихий дон). Thay had unique language, unique traditions in marriage and way of life in general. I think it's more than qualified to be a separate culture compared to other separated in game cultures(like Northumbrian and English for example)
 
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Why are some Pomors tengrist?

I think that the Finno-Ugric peoples on the Baltic Coast should not be named "Ingrian" as this name applies to the Finnish Lutheran peasants who were resettled to the Ingermanland by The Swedes in the 17th century. In 14th century the region was (and to a very, very small extent is) inhabited by Izhorians and Votians.

Why there is Erzya but no Moksha?

Where are the Chuvash people?
 
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I read this 3 times as hair selections and was like okay cool… definitely missing something.
We want people to love the 3D models, right? What better for that purpose than having hair selections for them, as in GTA? :cool:

PS: Just joking, before someone comes and says how hateful 3D models are. :p
 
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Some location names could be replaced with more correct ones. I will list only the most important but probably return to this subject later:

In Muscovy:
Verya -> Vereya, although actual Vereya is situated a bit south of Mozhaysk. An ideal choice for the location between Vyazma and Mozhaysk would be Gzhatsk (modern Gagarin), but it was founded only in 1703. Another good option for this location is Nikolskoye: it has long history and there are remains of the Iron Age hillfort near it.
Noginsk -> Rogozha or Rogozh (both forms were used). It was renamed to Bogorodsk in 1781 and later to Noginsk in 1930, after Victor Nogin, Soviet revolutionary.
Kurovskoye -> Kurovskaya. It was renamed to Kurovskoye (i.e. changed its grammatical gender from feminine to neuter) in 1952 when its status was elevated from village to city.
Subinowa -> Undol. Subinowa is not a name of a settlement, but actually it's a part of toponym which can be traslated as Sobin's Wasteland (Собинова Пустошь or Собинская Пустошь) because of dense forests and swamps (and Sobin was just a personal name of some local dweller). In 1858 a settlement named Sobinka was founded here. Therefore, I recommend to replace current name with Undol. Undol was an old trade settlement which existed since 15th century (nowadays it's a part of the city of Lakinsk) and was situated just in 4 km from Sobinka, so it would be the same in-game location.
Vyazniki -> Yaropolch. Historically, Vyazniki was a part of Yaropolch. In the early 18th century Yaropolch fell into decline, and Vyazniki became more significant.

In Ryazan:
Yegoryevsk -> Vysokoye. It was renamed to Egoryevsk in 1778.
Kasimov - maybe renaming isn't necessary, but, just for reference, it was known as Gorodets Meshchyorsky before its razing and total destruction in 1376, then as Novy Nizovoy until 1471. Around 1445 this town was given to Tatar prince Kasim and later became known as Kasim's town, i.e. Kasimov.

In Beloozero
Vashky -> Vashki. The latter form is more correct, because in Russian it's Вашки, not Вашкы.

In Golden Horde:
Belinsky -> Chembar. It was renamed to Belinsky in 1948 (after Vissarion Belinsky, 19th century literary critic). Chembar is a placename of Turkic origin.
Michurinsk -> Kozlov. It was renamed to Michurinsk in 1932 (after scientist Ivan Michurin). Kozlov is a placename of Slavic origin, and there's no information about any predecessing Turkic settlements.

In Novgorod:
Already made some suggestions in this post: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ruthenia-baltic.1683125/page-30#post-29665447
 
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I would disagree. There is even a book describing intricacies of specifically Cossac culture(Тихий дон). Thay had unique language, unique traditions in marriage and way of life in general. I think it's more than qualified to be a separate culture compared to other separated in game cultures(like Northumbrian and English for example)
I'm not opposed to making them their own culture, but it might be redundant given it'll be tied to the Cossack social class anyways. If they do make them their own culture, it should probably work by having Cossack culture pops slowly appear and then a new social class being formed.
 
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It's a convention, one of the two possible ways of naming the country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Moscow . BTW, although it's not displayed in the map, the full dynamic country name is 'Grand Principality of Muscovy'.

But we're open to feedback, if the community thinks that Moscow is more appropriate as the English form than Muscovy.
I think using historical names like Muscovy is way more immersive and should always be done if possible.
 
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View attachment 1155221
Can we get some more zoomed in location maps of the region, particularly in western Russia? There are so many locations where it's not possible to read what their names are, or the names are not visible at all

Would also be a nice thing to get the zoomed in sections in the main posts each week, as it is a problem in some of the regions shown.
Sure. I considered breaking a bit more the map this week, already, but Russia was just on the border of what can be seen and what not, so I preferred to post just one map and offer more detailed ones if needed:

Locations 2.png
 
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Is Galicia-Volhynia part of the tatar yoke or is their natural color yellow?
It's a tributary of the Golden Horde, although not part of the Tatar Yoke IO.
 
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IMG_3830.jpeg

I have some feedback on the cultural mapmode in Russia, mostly focused on the Volga near the edge of the Russian region. I know we were told to only focus on the Russian heartlands, but the Volga bend is close enough for it to matter. The first thing I'd like to see added is a new Chuvash culture, which I have shown in red. The Chuvash are a Oghur Turkic ethnic group, notably they're the only Oghur language still alive today. Because of this the Chuvash language is completely unintelligible with all Shaz Turkic languages, notably including Tatar and Bashkir. They're quite a significant ethnic group and should definitely be added, though note that the border I drew isn't the actual linguistic border.

The second culture I'd like to see added are the Moksha, who are a Mordvinic people who are often lumped together with the Erzya. This is because they are both Mordvinic speaking people's speaking similar Uralic languages, however the two languages are not mutually intelligible. I do have to applaud Paradox for not calling it a united "Morvin" culture, however sadly half of all Morvins were just forgotten about as the Moksha are weirdly absent. I have coloured them orange and they are directly below the Erzya, as they live just south of them.

Edit: Because Erzya culture is misplaced in game, Moksha culture should be moved alongside it to be west of Kazan.

Another change that should be made is to the Ingrian culture, as they're very hard to see in game. Ingrian and Karelian have almost identical map colours, which is especially annoying because they border eachother. I'd recommend changing them to Navy, as it would make them easy to distinguish them from the Karelians, while also making their colour similar to the turquoise of the Estonians.

Also, I have a question about the Pomor; are they considered Slavic, Uralic or a bit of both? As they're an ethnic group of Slavic settlers in the region who came from Novgorod. However, they're genetically Uralic in what seems to be a bit of an anthropological mystery. So I wonder how that will be represented in game, as they're a Slavic people with a Uralic origin.
 
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1.I suggest moving border of arctic and continental climates a bit to the north. I don't know about the rest, but Vologda is NOT as cold as, let's say, Arkhangelsk, trust me.
2. Will there be regular druzhinas available to the russian states?
3.Will there be achievement like "Kinslayer" from Eu4?
4. Will there be possible for Russian principalities to form a coalition against the Horde, like IRL?
5. I, again, only suggest, to replace some production with Fiber Crops production, because hemp and flax were somewhat popular in Middle Ages Russia.
6.Will Tver reign supreme?
 
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Why are some Pomors tengrist?

I think that the Finno-Ugric peoples on the Baltic Coast should not be named "Ingrian" as this name applies to the Finnish Lutheran peasants who were resettled to the Ingermanland by The Swedes in the 17th century. In 14th century the region was (and to a very, very small extent is) inhabited by Izhorians and Votians.

Why there is Erzya but no Moksha?

Where are the Chuvash people?
"Izhorian" is just what the Russians called the Ingrians, the term is used nowadays to distinguish "native" Ingrians from Ingrian Finns. Though I agree Votians should probably be their own group maybe, but lumping them with Ingrians isn't the worst thing in the world.
 
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Will the Cossac culture be implemented? They were Severians and Ruthenians, who migrated into the Steppe, and formed nomad-like culture.
We definitely want the Cossacks to be portrayed somehow in the game, although we have yet to decide exactly how.
 
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Cultures
View attachment 1154688
Cultures! As in other regions, we decided to have three different cultures in the Russian region, Novgorodian, Muscovite, and Severian. The design here is different than in the Ruthenian region, because Russia was more politically divided in the High Middle Ages, and would later be more culturally unified later on, while in Ruthenia, the situation would be the opposite. In any case, the four of them are East Slavic cultures, and we're open to feedback, of course. Apart from that, there are a bunch of different cultures bordering the region: Karelian, Pomor, Komi, Udmurt, etc. We might add some more minorities of these cultures, in the feedback pass after this DD. Also, take into account that the minorities over the Tatar lands (currently under the Kazani and Mishary cultures) are not yet done.
1719589300779.png


Why is this culture named Kazani and not Tatar?
Tatar yoke was named after them.
 
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are Moscovites going to have some kind of ability to collect duties from Russian principalites for the Golden horde?
We have an IO with some specific features, and its leader is a ruler nicknamed 'Moneybag', so...
 
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I guess that we'll receive feedback to put some more marshes on specific places on the map, then. ;)
Agree, but I won't be of use here. The authors on that topic can't even decide what exactly can be called a "marsh" in Russia. Some maps mark a certain area as swamp, others do not, some have peat bogs where others show a farmlands. Kanin Peninsula sometimes is a swamp, sometimes a grassland. Land south of Onega and Ladoga has same issue. All of that is for the sources BEFORE the begining of large scale land reclamaiton projects. As the result it's hard to estimate the amount of such terrain. Would be also nice to know what developers consider as a marsh for the purpose of this game.

Best example on why you need a specialist here is: Atlas Russicus barely marks Pinsk Marshes. :rolleyes:
 
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Am I bonkers, or are there two different colours of Lumber in the goods map? It looks like the Lumber in the south is a different colour.

Edit: Nevermind, looks like all the goods in the south are lightly shaded for some reason.
 
Now, this might not be the exact thread to ask this, but I was wondering if there will be a difference between ice-free and non-ice-free ports, and if so, will they have special mechanics? Given that it is something that has always been important for Russia.
We will talk about this in a future Tinto Talks.
 
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