Tinto Maps #3 France Feedback

[pasglop]

For some compound feedback:

Angoulême province should be Angoumois


People from there might correct me but IIRC Haut Artois is just Artois, while Bas Artois is Cambrésis.

Montfort-sur-Meu should just be Montfort, the "sur-Meu" was added during the revolution. Some other X-sur-Y names might be in the same situation but Montfort is the only one I am certain of.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

small semantic suggestion: ”marsh” usually refers to a grassy wetland, in difference to ”swamp” which is wooded wetland. Could the topographical terrain type of ”marsh” be renamed to ”wetland”? Just a small localization change so it should be easy to do. This would basically mean:
wetland+grassland=marsh
wetland+forest/woods=swamp
which is accurate to the geogrpahical definitions of these words.

Edit: might as well add some source: https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/wetland/

 

[donbg]

Very nice seeing this! Have you considered reducing the number of different cultures by merging some langues together or would you say there is sufficient historical reason to not merge them? (e.g. Gallo merged with Angevin, Poitevin with Saintogeanais, Alpine with Provençal). Linguistically, at least, these mergers could make sense.

 

[Davincie]

Are you sure about adding the Cathars? Their existence is still controversial and hotly debated among historians, so you might be walking into a historical minefield here.

 

[Pollllo]

It's a pity that the next feedback is not Poland and the Baltic Sea Region.

Approximately when can we expect it??? We had to wait a very long time for today's feedback, so I'm impatient.

I bet my badges Silesian as a culture has been removed and Polish is wholly it's own.

 

[Pilum2211]

I bet my badges Silesian as a culture has been removed and Polish is wholly it's own.

That or Polish has been split up more to be in line with Germany and France. (Considering there have even been plans to add Northumbrian out of English)

 

[Pollllo]

That or Polish has been split up more to be in line with Germany and France. (Considering there have even been plans to add Northumbrian out of English)

Either way the united Polish state would have all of these cultures be native to it otherwise it'd be a clusterfuck. Doesn't really make sense to split it up for the sake of the small tags at the start of the game, because they are ruled by the same dynasty; it does not correlate to seperate cultures as necessary.

 

[Sulphurologist]

small semantic suggestion: ”marsh” usually refers to a grassy wetland, in difference to ”swamp” which is wooded wetland. Could the topographical terrain type of ”marsh” be renamed to ”wetland”? Just a small localization change so it should be easy to do. This would basically mean: wetland+grassland=marsh wetland+forest/woods=swamp
which is accurate to the geogrpahical definitions of these words.

When embracing that term, perhaps the terrain type should be represented more on the map, but with different inherent maluses.
I'm working on a global wetland map that would make sense for the late medieval / early modern era, but it's difficult to get consistent global results.

My gut feeling goes out towards this subdivision:

in-game combo	IRL subdivision	Habitation	Maneuvering/logistics	Combat	Sieges
Wetlands + farmlands	Polders or controlled floodplains	no penalty	no penalty / conditional high penalty*	no penalty / conditional high penalty*	high penalty
Wetlands + grasslands	meadows / uncontrolled floodplain	minor penalty	minor penalty	minor penalty	minor penalty
Wetlands + sparse	"marshes" (herbaceous) and bogs/fens (peatlands)	medium/high penalty	medium/high penalty	medium/high penalty	high penalty
Wetlands + woods/forest	swamps	high penalty	high penalty	very high penalty	very high penalty

* conditional high penalty: polders/ controlled floodplains were very effective during wars to hamper the opponent. Ghent was considered unsiegable for the majority of the modern era, because they could flood the wetlands on demand; similar to what occurred in West-Flanders during WW1.

This subdivision of meadows would also allow for interesting terrain in the Hungarian plains, which has a very interesting wetland landscape (more on that when that TM drops).

A simple wikipedia schematic to assist my reasoning:

 

[Imperialismo]

Lovely work as usual!

 

[Palando]

Thanks

From @Palando in this post.

"Secondly, the Landvogtei Hagenau (Unterelsass) shouldn't be owned by Austria, as they lost it in 1330 to Emperor Louis the Bavarian. Louis's chancellor Albert II of Hohenberg was the bailiff in 1337, and Louis handed it over to his relative, the Rhenish elector in 1341. Alternatively, they could be replaced with another tag like Lichtenberg or Fleckenstein."

He'd also like to say "Colmar was a free city that wasn't owned by the Habsburgs." Please consider the corrections.

Now, I realised that you also added Mühlhausen, which would be another candidate for an independent tag. Colmar and Mühlhausen would be at least two out of the Decapolis (10), and maybe even Straßburg could be split into two Straßburgs - the bishopric and the free city.

The Lordship of Lichtenberg (ruled by the Lichtenbergs until 1480) and the Abbey Murbach could also be independent tags that would help representing the fractured Alsatian lands. But given the shape of the Murbach province, I think that Pavia and his team already plan to add this maybe later on, as it really nicely follows the contour of the territories owned by the immediate abbey.

The Habsburgs didn't really own anything sizeable in those areas at that time; only minor territories around Hohlandsberg and Albrechtstal (=Weilertal) (Hohkönigsburg was acquired only later during the reign of Emperor Maximilian I).

 

[Metroidkirby]

Thanks @Pavía and all of Paradox Tinto for the hard work

Some feedback on Normandy


Locations :
- Can't read the name of the location between Cherbourg and Coutances (It's 'saint-sauveur-le-vicomte' right ?). Renaming it to 'Valognes' or 'Carentan' would probably help.
- I'm still in favor of renaming 'Arques' to 'Dieppe' as it was already the main town.
- Now that 'Fecamp' gets its own location, Tancarville should be renamed to 'Lillebonne' or 'Harfleur' as they're major towns (Tancarville really shouldn't be the name of the location).
- Saint-Sylvain... well, it's kinda weird, because the town of 'Falaise' seems to be inside the location of 'Saint-Sylvain' (they're both South-East of Caen), also Saint-Sylvain is really tiny (like more tiny than Tancarville). So, I suggest a little tweak here. 'Saint-Sylvain' should be renamed to 'Falaise', and 'Falaise' to 'Flers'. It should work without moving the locations, but moving the border between Flers and Falaise a little to the South-West, and same thing between Flers and Domfront would be perfect.

Province :
- Ebroicien feels kinda weird with 'Evreux' beiing that far from the center. 'Ouche' would probably be a more fitting name with 'L'Aigle' and 'Bernay' in the middle of this province.

Goods :
- I know, I advised for sand in 'Harcourt', but with the locations moving, the sandpits are now in the 'Pont-Audemer' location. Swapping sand and stone between these two should do the trick.

 

[Mef]

Very happy with this. Impressive!

 

[Vispian]

I made a further comment on Alum Production HERE

The TLDR is that France should not have any Alum producing provinces until you get into the 19th Century. Historically speaking France has an Alum insecurity and thus for the Norman Cloth market and their paper production would suffer when cut off from major Alum supplies. Initially the Ottomans cut off Europe, forcing the Papal States to secure their own Alum mine at Tolfa, and the Papal states tried to monopolise and create a cartel around the mine. This forced France to again find sources of Alum abroad or over in Liege another major production centre after the Ottomans.

This is essential to represent because it forces the Player or AI to expand or secure their own Alum supplies in the lowlands, Italy or overseas if they want to develop the industries it requires. In addition the provinces you highlight (Millau and Ventadour) I could find no references to Alum and when researching their local economies both were heavily entrenched in livestock products.


- Between Huy and Flemelle (Liege) in the low countries would also become a major production hub of which would supply all of the French needs for Alum. I know Liege is marble and I think it should remain that but maybe another location that should produce Alum instead


- Andrea Günster and Stephen Martin, 'A Holy Alliance: Collusion in the Renaissance Europe Alum Market', Review of Industrial Organization, 47 (2015), 1-23.
- Sharon Farmer, 'Global and Gendered Perspectives on the Production of Parisian Alms Purse, c. 1340', Journal of Medieval Worlds, 1 (2019), 45-84 (pp. 73-74).
- John U. Nef, A Comparison of Industrial Growth in France and England from 1540 to 1640: III', Journal of Political Economy, 44 (1936), 643-666 (pp. 653-654).
- James L. Goldsmith, 'Agriculture Specialization and Stagnation in Early Modern Auvergne', Agriculture History, 73 (1973), 216-234.

 

[Pavía]

Did you fix the Bayonne province being in Iberia? (as in it shouldn't be, it should be in France)

It now belongs to the province of Gascony, yes.

 

[Urnus1]

I like the Lorraine changes, but the boundary between Rhenish Franconian and Lorrain in the Saulnois region still seems reflective of the situation *after* the Thirty Years War and the subsequent repopulation of the Saulnois region by Romance-speakers. This led to a large chunk of the region going from Germanophone to Francophone. According to the linguist Alain Simmer (Source: https://hal.univ-lorraine.fr/tel-01750396, p. 95):

La zone ainsi gagnée par le français se définit par une ligne passant au nord par Arriance, Morhange, Albestroff, Sarrebourg, Abreschviller, le Donon et, au sud, par Château–Bréhain, Marsal, Réchicourt–le–Château

The zone thus gained by French is defined by a line passing in the north by Arriance, Morhange, Albestroff, Sarrebourg, Abreschviller, le Donon and, in the south, by Château-Bréhain, Marsal, Réchicourt-le-Château

Particularly of note here is that Morhange, which in the maps posted lends its name to a predominantly Lorrain location, was just north of the affected region, whose southern boundary stretched south-east from Château-Bréhain (about 10km SW of Morhange) through Marsal (about 7km east of Vic-sur-Seille) to Réchicourt-le-Château (not far north of the modern département's southern border). That is to say, in 1337 Morhange and its environs were Germanic-speaking, and Vic-sur-Seille was not far to the west of the converted region. The below map showing the change seems to be more or less consistent with Simmer's description:

(Note: Morchingen = Morhange, Vic-sur-Seille is a little southeast of Château-Salins)
It's a little hard to tell what areas precisely are represented by the locations of Morhange and Vic-sur-Seille, but imo considering this it's incorrect to represent Metz as having a larger Germanic minority than the area directly to its east, or the area immediately to the west of Sarrebourg as Romance-speaking.

 

[Sulphurologist]

I made a further comment on Alum Production HERE

The TLDR is that France should not have any Alum producing provinces until you get into the 19th Century. Historically speaking France has an Alum insecurity and thus for the Norman Cloth market and their paper production would suffer when cut off from major Alum supplies. Initially the Ottomans cut off Europe, forcing the Papal States to secure their own Alum mine at Tolfa, and the Papal states tried to monopolise and create a cartel around the mine. This forced France to again find sources of Alum abroad or over in Liege another major production centre after the Ottomans.

This is essential to represent because it forces the Player or AI to expand or secure their own Alum supplies in the lowlands, Italy or overseas if they want to develop the industries it requires. In addition the provinces you highlight (Millau and Ventadour) I could find no references to Alum and when researching their local economies both were heavily entrenched in livestock products.


- Between Huy and Flemelle (Liege) in the low countries would also become a major production hub of which would supply all of the French needs for Alum. I know Liege is marble and I think it should remain that but maybe another location that should produce Alum instead


- Andrea Günster and Stephen Martin, 'A Holy Alliance: Collusion in the Renaissance Europe Alum Market', Review of Industrial Organization, 47 (2015), 1-23.
- Sharon Farmer, 'Global and Gendered Perspectives on the Production of Parisian Alms Purse, c. 1340', Journal of Medieval Worlds, 1 (2019), 45-84 (pp. 73-74).
- John U. Nef, A Comparison of Industrial Growth in France and England from 1540 to 1640: III', Journal of Political Economy, 44 (1936), 643-666 (pp. 653-654).
- James L. Goldsmith, 'Agriculture Specialization and Stagnation in Early Modern Auvergne', Agriculture History, 73 (1973), 216-234.

Alum was only discovered in liege in the 16th century though. Liege was renowned for its high quality coal ever since the late medieval era, so that'd make the most sense imo.

Considering coal in Béthune. This region only saw coal exploitation starting in the 1700s. Mons on the other hand (Borinage region, St-Ghislain abbey region) had coal extraction since the 13th century. So I believe Mons would be more appropriate than Béthune.

 

[Pavía]

At first glance I note a few things for Toulouse region :
- population distribution between Toulouse (49k) and Villemur (47k) locations looks weird. Maybe automatic distribution after splitting previous Toulouse location, but it should probably be much higher in Toulouse and lower in Villemur…
- Albi should have Coal rather than Lead
- I don't know if there is any sort of representation of temporary raw goods, but "Dyes" in Toulouse/Lauragués region seems to represent Pastel activity, which only lasted for a century or so (approximately from 1450 to 1560, when replaced by Indigo). The "raw good" otherwise would rather be Wheat. (I don't know how this could translate in game terms however)

My only suggestions are :

1. Switching ressources between Épernay and Vitry-en-Perthois.
2. Reviewing Reims population knowing it was way more populous than Épernay

Épernay's ressource

Épernay is the birthplace (and still the headquarter) of the main houses producing effervescent wine that is known as Champagne (Moët & Chandon in 1743, Perrier & Jouët in 1811). Dom Pérignon's Abbey is located in that location in Hautvillers who helped refine the product.

The bottom line: Épernay should be producing wine, while Vitry could be producing fruits.

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne

You even have a map where today's Champagne is produced in the Champenois region : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne#/media/File:Vignobles_champagne.svg

Before the 18th Century, the country around Épernay was producing normal wine.

It doesn't go out as far west as Vitry-en-Perthois.

Reims vs Épernay's population

Regarding the population of Reims being lower than Épernay, the only statistics I have is from 1793, where Reims (city) was 10 times more populous than Épernay (30K vs 3k). My understanding is that Épernay was a big village throughout the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period, while Reims was a real fortified city (with around 15-20K inhabitants). You might have better historical sources that say otherwise for 1337, though. I don't know.

Just changed the resources of Albi, Épernay, and Vitry-en-Perthois. For the population, take into account that we also portray the rural population, and we portray urbanization in a different way; Toulouse is set up as a city, while Reims is a town.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

next is poland ruthenia and the baltics lets goooo

 

[Mingmung]

next is poland ruthenia and the baltics lets goooo

Italy, actually. They need a little bit longer on Ruthenia/Poland/Baltics (which makes sense).

Here's to hoping for a Benevento exclave.

 

[Vispian]

Alum was only discovered in liege in the 16th century though. Liege was renowned for its high quality coal ever since the late medieval era, so that'd make the most sense imo.

Considering coal in Béthune. This region only saw coal exploitation starting in the 1700s. Mons on the other hand (Borinage region, St-Ghislain abbey region) had coal extraction since the 13th century. So I believe Mons would be more appropriate than Béthune.

Personally im not that bothered what Liege is. But my framework it anything before 1600 is fair to represent. There is an inherent balance between the economy of 1300s and 1700s I feel we should strike. Either way France should have no Alum (Havnt done the research on the one in Provence yet)