Tinto Maps #3 France Feedback

BeyondExpectation · Apr 19, 2025

The key Pavía gave isn't consistent with the portrayal of Valentinois; if they are an HRE member, then their land not in the HRE should be striped blue. If they're not, then their land in the HRE should be striped purple.

Solo_Adhémar · Apr 19, 2025

The counts of Valentinois had land in both the HRE and in France that's accurate. They paid homage to the Dauphin since at least the 1240's for their lands in Valentinois & Diois (at least most of it, that's a bit more complicated), and to the king for their land in Vivarais (everything on the right bank of the Rhône that is). The imperial lands east of the Rhône indeed joined the kingdom with Dauphiné at the end of the war in 1355 (not 1338). These were bound by a treaty to Viennois (1252 iirc), which the last count renewed with the king this time (some time after the act of Transport of Dauphiné in the 1370's or so) essentially annexing Valentinois & Diois to Dauphiné at that point (and ceeding it after his death on condition that it does remain perpetually part of Dauphiné). But not Vivarais which was already part of the kingdom and some parts of south valentinois which werent part of the county (& went to Papal States).

Finally, the Dauphin himself gave homage to the duke of Burgundy (since Humbert I in the early 1290's) but his possessions were still nominally in imperial land.

Mef · Apr 29, 2025

While we're still waiting on updated population numbers, I had a look at the numbers in the OP and historical estimates.

In 1328, the Chambres des Comptes conducted an enumeration of fiscal households, which gives some insight into the population of France very close to the start date of the game. The numbers can be viewed here.
There are many areas that weren't included in this survey, but demographers have used this historical document to calculate a population in the modern borders of France of 21 million.
Even though France had been very overpopulated at this time, after two relatively peaceful and stable centuries, this number has generally been dismissed as too high (it took until 1750 for the population to reach this number "again").

For the following estimate I will use a number of 4 people per household rather than 5 people, which gives a total population estimate of 16.8 million, which is very much in line with what you usually see.
The total population shown in the OP in the modern borders of France is 15.8 million, so the game seems to be working with a similar estimate.

I tried my best to match the historical population numbers to provinces on the map, but I obviously don't know what the borders between different administrative divisions looked like back then with perfect accuracy (and neither did the people who did this survey in 1328, presumably).
Areas not included in the survey are shaded black.

Since the game's population (that was shown in the OP, again we don't know if there have been any changes made) is already fully in line with typical estimates, there isn't any pressing need for changes, however I do have one major suggestion to make:

The farmland stretching from Paris to Flanders (i.e. the arena for some of the most famous battles of the Hundred Years' War) was extremely densely populated by all accounts, even reaching up to 100 people/km². I believe that some population could be added here, specifically the provinces of Amienois, Vermandois, Haut-Artois, Bas-Artois and Roman Flanders which are mostly all farmland.
While the area of the divisions in the survey may have been different from the provinces owned by France in the game, the gap between the historical "census" and the game is still massive. Here's the comparison for Northern France:

	Game	1328 Estimate
Amiens	120 941	462 864
Vermandois	133 903	522 648
Senlis	181 492	262 424
Paris	347 459	467 944

Artois and Flanders weren't included in the survey, but they are generally believed to have had similar population densities.

There are some other minor improvements that could be made, such as removing some population from Limousin and the Massif Central and adding some to Toulouse, but I think that the 1337 population setup is generally in a good spot.

torgal39 · May 4, 2025

Pavía said:
Hi! What's better than having Tinto Maps on a Friday? I think that getting more maps on a Thursday might do the trick.

As in previous feedback posts, here is the list of changes:

Added the following new locations (141):

montreuil

corbie

breteuil

peronne

nesle

crepy

fecamp

louviers

bernay

laigle

st_sylvain

st_sauveur

belleme

Montmorency

brie_comte_robert

corbeil

villaines

st_sable

chateau_du_loir

le_lude

blain

beaupreau

passavant

beauvoir

mauleon_poitou

talmont

st_pol_de_leon

le_faou

chateaulin

carhaix

quimperle

hennebont

chatelaudren

monfort_sur_meu

fougeres

auneau

vitry_aux_loges

sully

romorantin

vierzon

st_aignan

chatillon_sur_indre

lignieres

boussac

sancoins

st_pierre_de_moutier

avallon

montreuillon

cercy

montcenis

aignay

arnay

beaune

auxonne

louhans

rosnay

villemaur

choiseul

grancey

montbozon

etain

fresnes

ligny

sarreguemines

morhange

vic_sur_seille

luneville

darney

arches

lichtenberg

benfeld

colmar

murbach

mulhouse

st_jean_dangely

lusignan

aulnay

charroux

rochefort

cognac

chabanais

jonzac

brosse

st_leonard

aixe

chambon

ussel

jaligny

montaigut

vichy

st_gerand

herment

vic_le_comte

allegre

chalancon

bage

perreux

villars

thoire

feurs

riverie

la_tour_du_pin

romans

privas

montlaur

la_mure

condorcet

mevouillon

castelnau_de_medoc

benauges

riberac

thiviers

limeuil

sarlat

belin

marmande

montflanquin

aire

orthez

gourdon

peyrusse

entraigues

verdun_sur_garonne

villemur

lautrec

st_affrique

nogaro

aspet

peyre

chateauneuf_de_randon

florac

st_ambroix

fenouillet

apt

tarascon

brignoles

barjols

draguignan

castellane

puget_theniers

bonifacio

Added the following Lakes and Impassables:

hourtin_carcans_lake

lagoon_of_sanguinet

lagoon_of_bages_sigean

lagoon_of_salses

lagoon_of_vaccares

lagoon_of_berre

massif_central

dore_mountains

vercors_massif

vivarais_mountains

maritime_alps1

cottian_alps1

graian_alps1

dauphine_alps1

dauphine_alps2

pennine_alps1

Added the following TAGs (5):

Bearn

Ferrette

La Marche

Mont de Marsan

Perche

Reviewed:

Vegetation and Topography

Setup

Pops

Raw Goods

Added Cathar Pops and Religion

As a note, after the review, the location density in France is more aligned with that of Iberia, while still not as high as that of the Low Countries, Germany, and Italy. As I mentioned in previous posts, this DOES NOT mean that we will be adding hundreds of new locations in each review, but that we're trying to level a map of which their first locations were added back in 2020, so we get a smooth transition between the most dense and the less dense regions.

Without further ado, maps:

Countries:
View attachment 1158095
We've added a few minor countries; Béarn and Mont de Marsan are PUs of Foix, La Marche is a PU of Bourbonnais, and Perche is a PU of Alençon. Apart from that, the ruler of Ferrette/Pfirt is Joanna of Pfirt, spouse and consort of Duke Albrecht II of Austria, therefore starting on a PU with him. There are also a few meaningful changes in the shape of some countries, of which the ones for Auvergne probably are the most relevant. Oh, and also there's now a connection between the northern and southern crownlands, as per the locations of Brosse and Limoges, which makes the county of La Marche (another addition, ruled by Louis of Bourbon in PU) to be divided.

Dynasties:
View attachment 1158563

Locations:
View attachment 1158102
Location map with all the new locations. You might also notice the new lakes and wastelands added; the Central Masif is not any more such a complex place (although we've kept a few wastelands there), and we've improved a bit the mountain passes in the Alps, so they're now easier to understand, with less disconnected chunks, etc.

Provinces:
View attachment 1158104
Lots of changes in this mapmode! We've made a great rework of it thanks to your feedback, and we think that now provinces read much more flavorful. If you would have any more naming suggestions, please let us know!

Terrain:
View attachment 1158106
View attachment 1158108
Regarding the topography, we've adjusted the Central Masif and the Alps, we've added some marshlands (mostly on the western coast), and some more hilly locations here and there. Regarding the vegetation, we've also read and applied your feedback; farmlands are a bit more distributed, and some regions are less forested (Britanny, Landes), while others are more forested (Auvergne). BTW, ignore the different coloring of Narbonne, it's a graphical bug that appeared while taking the screenshots.

Cultures:
View attachment 1158128
Not many changes here, I just wanted to share an updated distribution of the cultures, after the new provinces were added. For this reason, there's no need to repost the religious map. Although, I'm letting you know one thing: We're adding a few Cathars to the region! However, that's not yet fully ready, as we need to gather some additional data; I'll share it with you as soon as it's fully ready.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1158126
Reviewed materials. France is no longer half-covered by Olives!

Population:
View attachment 1158129
New pops! I'm not attaching the country level, as there aren't many changes (e.g. France now has 5.601M inhabitants instead of 5.646). I might also have spoiled some WIP up in the British Isles...

One more time, thanks for your feedback! We'll read your comments in this thread, and check if there are any more tweaks that we might have to do. The next region review that we will most likely share with you is Italy, as we have less feedback to implement compared to Poland and the Baltic region, and we want to make sure that we take the time we need to have a proper review of it before sharing.

See you tomorrow again, in the Tinto Maps devoted to Carpathia and the Balkans!

Hi Paradox, I'm from Franche-Comté, thanks for ur history job about this region. I have just some modification that i could suggest to u. The province of Poligny might be more hills or plateaux than flatlands because of the jura's mountain chain which pass by the city of Poligny. Same for the province of Luxeuil because of the south part of "ballon des vosges". Finally the province of St Claude is more mountains than hills.

Thanks u so much for your games and your work.

perceval350 · May 5, 2025

Another argument for Ponthieu, Aquitaine and Montpellier to be French vassals in an integrated PU with England and Mallorca is the fact that as the start of the HYW, Ponthieu was confiscated by Philippe VI. I'm not saying that this kind of interaction absolutly needs to be in PC, however I believe that this historical example also shows how portraying Montpellier, Ponthieu and Aquitaine as they are currently portrayed kinda misses the point of western european feudalism and all its caveats

Calliyop · May 12, 2025

Hello there, dear mapmakers and warmongers!

I hope everyone is fine and that 2025 is profitable to everyone, as these last days brought joice to my heart, with the announcement of Europa Universalis V.

I've been advised to post here this whole letter, which may be more appropriate indeed.

After nearly two years and a half of mapmaking on a specific project, though yet unfinished, I think it's time to show you the current state of my Santonie /Santony map.

You will probably ask: hey friend, what's Santonie, actually?
The answer is simple: it's the region I call this way, which encompasses the traditional French provinces of Aunis, Saintonge and Angoumois.
The region name itself derives from the Gallic tribe of Santones / Santoni, who gave their name to the province of Saintonge, and to the city of Saintes, nowadays a medium-sized locality of about 25 000 inhabitants.

How the region is depicted by Paradox Tinto, according to Tinto Talks #3: France Feedback.

As a mapmaker for seven years now (let's say a bit more, but I began seriously making maps by Spring 2018), I gathered mapping experience, which should help me progressing quickly, but in the same time, my map projections have become even more complex, displaying tons of details.

Nevertheless, despite this ongoing project, I decided it was time to share with you its current state, as to present the way I imagine a historical simulation, on a deep geographical level. As said, the map has been started in early 2023, thought as a hyper granular map fit for Grand Strategy Games.

By this time, Europa Universalis 5 was not announced, and we were one year and a month before the publication of the first Tinto Talk.

So, as promised: here is my current map of Santonie. Enjoy!

Until recently, the symbols of habitats were larger, but I had to resize them, after revisiting an old map of Malta, where the population density is one of the highest in Europe. Also, no regional borders at the moment.

I added a map legend to bring better information, so that you will better understand my vision behind this map.
Each terrestrial tile is equal to an area, which owns a locality. Or not, depending on the time period represented (aka those famous tiles you have to colonize in CK3!).

This project is also serious in its territorial division, since it is in majority based on the French communes (inherited from historical parishes), as well as it reflects authentic countrysides and historical entities (examples: county of Benon in Aunis, county of Cosnac in southwestern Saintonge, represented here as viscounties). I've also taken some liberties, as you'll find with the area of Sauzelle, on Oléron island, which isn't a commune but represents an habitat, which historically was dedicated to salt exploitation in the surrounding marshes.

The map is intended as the base of a simulation, with three different levels of control over territories: the area / locality on the deeper scale, the viscounty / viguerie on a medium-sized scale, and the provincial, wider scale. I've also found some balance, thanks to the observation of managing and administration: that's why I put a maximum limit of twenty five locations per viscounty, and more or less the same number of viscounties per province. Although I've not tested this on other parts of the world yet, it seems to me reasonable, as the more you have to manage from one place, the more tedious it becomes. In these various types of management, localities would be managed as local territories, focused on economy, population (and maybe more) ; viscounties would be the kind of place for regional governments, like a first step of centralization ; and finally, provinces would be managed in the same way than states are in Europa Universalis IV, like proclaiming an edict, or maybe putting taxes (on salt or something else). This way, I believe, would faithfully depict low, medium and high jurisdictions.

In this territorial system, viscounties would sometimes stretch over multiple provinces (for instance: viscounty of Aulnay, northeast of Saintonge, which was both part of Poitou, to the north, and of Saintonge, to the south).

Though this map project is not over yet, it is influenced by Paradox games since I make maps and even before. As such, I also want to represent commercial goods, and especially plenty of local, diverse resources, not limited to one per area / locality, but up to five per terrestrial tile. Yes, FIVE.

That is due to personal research lead commune by commune, which let me see how much settlements economy could be complex in the past, and still is today...! Although it might seem too much, I believe this kind of representation would simulate realistic, diverse economy, instead of the traditional one per province (or one per locality as projected in Project Cae... ahem, Europa Universalis 5

).

Making this kind of well developped maps takes a lot of time. So, take this in consideration, as I present to you other maps, depending on progress made.

Here is one dedicated to local resources in Aunis. It's quite unfinished, even so as I hesitate about the exact resources showed in the center, as well as the exact number of resources to display depending on the area / locality (three is too much in some of them, but not enough in some other ones). Among these resources are fish, grapes, salt, clay, sand, crustaceans, shells, fruits, legumes, cattle, wooden logs, wheat / cereals, honey bees, horses, deers, marsh birds (both meant for hunting), sheeps and goats, poultry, stone, and finally fiber crops. All of these for the moment, for the province of Aunis. This may seem a lot, but I would ideally add more, like cutting stone into different types, depending on its nature (sandstone, limestone, granite, shale, slate...).

These resources would be exploited by workers, or pops, in order to produce goods. Cereals would remain cereals, for example, but cattle would give meat, milk and hides ; of which, milk would be turned into cheese, and hides into leather. On these ones, maybe shortcuts could be useful, but my preference goes to simulating a deep economy. Honeybees, on their side, would produce honey. Clay would be used for bricks, and salt... would remain salt, ah-ha, ready to be used and consumed.

To add some context about demographics, here is how population was distributed in the sole province of Aunis, first around the year 1800, and second as it is today, around the year 2020. I didn't gather much information for the centuries before 1800, but as far as I know, Ré island was already quite populated inhabited in the middle ages (estimations between 8 000 to 10 000 people in the middle ages, 14 500 people in 1700, 16 700 in 1774).

And finally, a map about cultures and dialects: this one focuses on Saintongeais and its variations. To its north are Poitevin dialects (or at least, how I saw them several months ago - it needs to be reshaped), and to the south, Medocan represents a part of Gascon language.

I'd like to specify I'm no linguist, however I came to this result after all the time spent on this project, trying to understand how these different areas behave through time. As such, maybe someone with better local linguistical knowledge would do a better job. Thus, I still am proud of it. The various saintongese dialects of Angoumois also are displayed. One thing can be noticed due to the spreading of Pontese dialect: it highlights the town of Pons as the center of Saintongese culture. Since two thousand years, the provincial capital is the city of Saintes, to its north, chosen by the Romans, but before Roman domination, Pons was the capital of Santones tribe and a noticeable oppida. Funny to see how much it still prevails in its legacy.

And this means the end of this topic, aimed at sharing you my works, as well as to bring several ideas to anyone wanting to create maps, and dream of the ways to manage areas, or even more! Create a mapgame of its own!

I hope you did enjoy it. If you've got any question, don't hesitate to ask! It will be a pleasure to read you.

Some small things I'd like to add here, as I believe Tinto Team will read this post: I've got some ideas for you, about naval management. I've learnt shipbuilding will only be available in towns or cities, which is great. May I give you the following suggestions? I think each port should have a limited capacity of boats it can welcome. But also, that each port should condition which boat can be welcomed, depending on boat's draft, as well as its tonnage. Because EU5 is meant at being amplified on economic and trader matters, I believe boats should have a capacity of trade goods they can bring aboard. Which would enhance maritime gameplay, if not already implemented.

As the night stretches, I have to go. See you, fellow historians and commanders, take care of yourself... and remember, as some great people said before me: Be ambitious!

matfer13 · May 12, 2025

I noticed that there has been a mistake in the naming of French country and that's the Duchy of Bourbonnais

Which should be just called Bourbon, sinnce in english the ruler's title was the Lord/Duke or Bourbon amd therefore it should be called the Duchy of Bourbon

Calliyop · May 12, 2025

Sulphurologist said:
When embracing that term, perhaps the terrain type should be represented more on the map, but with different inherent maluses.
I'm working on a global wetland map that would make sense for the late medieval / early modern era, but it's difficult to get consistent global results.

My gut feeling goes out towards this subdivision:

in-game combo IRL subdivision Habitation Maneuvering/logistics Combat Sieges
Wetlands + farmlands Polders or controlled floodplains no penalty no penalty / conditional high penalty* no penalty / conditional high penalty* high penalty
Wetlands + grasslands meadows / uncontrolled floodplain minor penalty minor penalty minor penalty minor penalty
Wetlands + sparse "marshes" (herbaceous)
and bogs/fens (peatlands) medium/high penalty medium/high penalty medium/high penalty high penalty
Wetlands + woods/forest swamps high penalty high penalty very high penalty very high penalty

* conditional high penalty: polders/ controlled floodplains were very effective during wars to hamper the opponent. Ghent was considered unsiegable for the majority of the modern era, because they could flood the wetlands on demand; similar to what occurred in West-Flanders during WW1.

This subdivision of meadows would also allow for interesting terrain in the Hungarian plains, which has a very interesting wetland landscape (more on that when that TM drops).

A simple wikipedia schematic to assist my reasoning:
View attachment 1158230

Oh, my. Thank you man, this kind of research will help me a lot for my own works.

Calliyop · May 12, 2025

matfer13 said:
I noticed that there has been a mistake in the naming of French country and that's the Duchy of Bourbonnais
View attachment 1297013
Which should be just called Bourbon, sinnce in english the ruler's title was the Lord/Duke or Bourbon amd therefore it should be called the Duchy of Bourbon
View attachment 1297014

Quite true, this title was based on the town of Bourbon-l'Archambault, which gave its name to the surroundings as Bourbonnais; but the title of nobility / political entity should be name Bourbon indeed, to differentiate it from the geographical / administrative point of view.

Antichain · May 14, 2025

The map is awesome! Great Work!
I just have some troubles with the location of Machikoul (to be honest, this is the place where I live, so I am very on the details) :
in gray : Why is it in Naoned location? Historically, it was always in the Baronny of Retz (which is represented by Machikoul location)
in yellox : Why is it in Machikoul location? Historically, it never was inside the Baronny of Retz.
Some more questions :
Will there be an event around 1430's for the owner of the location which implies Gilles de Rais, a man who inspired Bluebeard (I won't detail furthermore on that topic...)?
It doesn't seem there is Lac de Grand-Lieu, one of the largest french plain lakes, which should lie right between Machukoul and Naoned location. Will it be implemented?
Finally: On the location of Beauvoir, Just on the South of Machikoul location, there is irl a place named Bouin, which was on the period of time of the game an island. Right again : Will it be implemented ?
I thank you to have read this commentary.

LordThanatos · May 21, 2025

Pavía said:
We're adding a few Cathars to the region! However, that's not yet fully ready, as we need to gather some additional data; I'll share it with you as soon as it's fully ready.

I was just checking back through some of these regional talks and was wondering if this had been shared, yet? I'd love to see the setup for the Cathars at some point. Perhaps during a Tinto Flavour for France, if it hadn't been shared, yet?

It's a shame we just miss out on the Authié brothers attempt at a Cathar revival twenty years before the start date, and the burning of their last known Perfect by just a decade. Despite that, the Cathars should still be interesting, given that they're without much support, hunted by inquisitors and without any formal hierarchy by this point (If they ever really had one. It's contentious.).

Search

Tinto Maps #3 France Feedback

BeyondExpectation

Colonel

Solo_Adhémar

Major

Mef

Field Marshal

torgal39

Recruit

perceval350

Major

Calliyop

Corporal

matfer13

General

Calliyop

Corporal

Calliyop

Corporal

Antichain

Recruit

Attachments

LordThanatos

Captain

in-game combo	IRL subdivision	Habitation	Maneuvering/logistics	Combat	Sieges
Wetlands + farmlands	Polders or controlled floodplains	no penalty	no penalty / conditional high penalty*	no penalty / conditional high penalty*	high penalty
Wetlands + grasslands	meadows / uncontrolled floodplain	minor penalty	minor penalty	minor penalty	minor penalty
Wetlands + sparse	"marshes" (herbaceous) and bogs/fens (peatlands)	medium/high penalty	medium/high penalty	medium/high penalty	high penalty
Wetlands + woods/forest	swamps	high penalty	high penalty	very high penalty	very high penalty