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I don't think their existence is controversial; there was a crusade to fight them, and we have inquisitorial records regarding their activity in the first quarter of the 14th century.

PS: I'm (or at least, I was before joining Paradox) a historian.
It is worth stating though that several of the authors quoted on that first wikipedia page like Mark Gregory Pegg and R. I. Moore do not believe the Cathars existed. The crusade happened for sure, and they thought there was a heresy there. But the revisionist (or at least a decade ago, I have not kept up with the debate) view was that they were essentially hunting for ghosts. I would not go as far as to call the crusade purely a political one (a rather presentist thing to say) but I do believe it was more of a combination of religious hysteria and political expediency than a crusade against an actual existing heresy. It's not much of a surprise the Fournier register is from a century later. He essentially came in looking for Cathars, and thus was predisposed to finding them.
 
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I'm going to bring this up since you guys plan on doing Italy next; Wouldn't make it more sense for Nice be in the region of Italy during this time period? I can understand the province of Savoy to be in France from a geographical and cultural perspective but Nice can very well considered part of Italy since it was culturally, geographically and especially politically part of Italy until the mid 800's, it wasn't in the jure Kingdom of France and it was owned by it only during the Italian and Napoleonic wars, if you can mayby change the province a bit to more accurately resemble the county of Nice like you did with Savoy it would be also perfect.
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1000018993.jpg
 
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- I don't know if there is any sort of representation of temporary raw goods, but "Dyes" in Toulouse/Lauragués region seems to represent Pastel activity, which only lasted for a century or so (approximately from 1450 to 1560, when replaced by Indigo). The "raw good" otherwise would rather be Wheat. (I don't know how this could translate in game terms however)

Speaking of dyes, it appears to me that this resource doesn't show up where dyes were made, but where they were traded. For example the map of Poland shows dyes as local goods in Lviv and Danzig, IIRC - rich trading cities which likely traded in dyes but not necessarily the exact places where carmine bugs were collected or processed.

Perhaps it's done this way to make standout cities like Lviv and Toulouse a little special thanks to the rare trade good.
Or maybe it's because assigning dye production to specific locations proved impossible (in case of cochineal, this industry was widespread in much of rural Poland and Ruthenia, but likely didn't attain the status of dominant good anywhere). So putting it on the map would involve the arbitrary decision to award the extremely profitable resource to a couple of random locations, giving them undeserved strategic importance while all of their neighbors scrape by on legumes and hemp.
 
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Maybe by the end of next week or the start of the following one, but there are some WIP Middle Eastern minorities that we need to implement first.
So that means Middle East TM after Carpathia and the Balkans? Exciting! Religious map is going to be interesting there!

P.S.: For Italy, Papal States Benevento or riot, and island for Venice or double riot! :D
 
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Yes. The one that probably is more fringe is the division between Poitevin and Saintogeanais, but any possible merge didn't feel very consistent, either (E.g.: Would you name it Poitevin, Saintogeanais, or Poitevin-Saintogeanais?).

"Pointevin-saintongeais" is exactly what this language is called in French, where it is legally recognized as a language comprising of two dialects.
Wiki tells me it's also called "aguiainais" sometimes, but I've no idea how this name reads, as in whether it's formal or derogatory. Perhaps someone from France could weigh in.

Either way, naming issues shouldn't outweigh accuracy. If there's little distinction between the cultures, does it really make sense to keep them separate?
What if somebody plays as Poitou (if it's a releasable); is Saintongeais distinct enough to justify having to integrate Saintongeais just like they'd need to integrate Angevin or Francien?
 
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"Pointevin-saintongeais" is exactly what this language is called in French, where it is legally recognized as a language comprising of two dialects.
Wiki tells me it's also called "aguiainais" sometimes, but I've no idea how this name reads, as in whether it's formal or derogatory. Perhaps someone from France could weigh in.

Either way, naming issues shouldn't outweigh accuracy. If there's little distinction between the cultures, does it really make sense to keep them separate?
What if somebody plays as Poitou (if it's a releasable); is Saintongeais distinct enough to justify having to integrate Saintongeais just like they'd need to integrate Angevin or Francien?
My searches on the internet indicate that "aguiain" is not derogatory, but not really an endonym either. Seems like it was coined in the late 20th century (perhaps by someone tired of saying "Poitevin-Saintogeanais"), but has not gained much widespread acceptance. This is perhaps not surprising given the controversy around the existence of said language in the first place (which based on my cursory and not at all scholarly research seems significant).
 
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Hi! What's better than having Tinto Maps on a Friday? I think that getting more maps on a Thursday might do the trick. :cool:

As in previous feedback posts, here is the list of changes:

Added the following new locations (141):
  1. montreuil
  2. corbie
  3. breteuil
  4. peronne
  5. nesle
  6. crepy
  7. fecamp
  8. louviers
  9. bernay
  10. laigle
  11. st_sylvain
  12. st_sauveur
  13. belleme
  14. Montmorency
  15. brie_comte_robert
  16. corbeil
  17. villaines
  18. st_sable
  19. chateau_du_loir
  20. le_lude
  21. blain
  22. beaupreau
  23. passavant
  24. beauvoir
  25. mauleon_poitou
  26. talmont
  27. st_pol_de_leon
  28. le_faou
  29. chateaulin
  30. carhaix
  31. quimperle
  32. hennebont
  33. chatelaudren
  34. monfort_sur_meu
  35. fougeres
  36. auneau
  37. vitry_aux_loges
  38. sully
  39. romorantin
  40. vierzon
  41. st_aignan
  42. chatillon_sur_indre
  43. lignieres
  44. boussac
  45. sancoins
  46. st_pierre_de_moutier
  47. avallon
  48. montreuillon
  49. cercy
  50. montcenis
  51. aignay
  52. arnay
  53. beaune
  54. auxonne
  55. louhans
  56. rosnay
  57. villemaur
  58. choiseul
  59. grancey
  60. montbozon
  61. etain
  62. fresnes
  63. ligny
  64. sarreguemines
  65. morhange
  66. vic_sur_seille
  67. luneville
  68. darney
  69. arches
  70. lichtenberg
  71. benfeld
  72. colmar
  73. murbach
  74. mulhouse
  75. st_jean_dangely
  76. lusignan
  77. aulnay
  78. charroux
  79. rochefort
  80. cognac
  81. chabanais
  82. jonzac
  83. brosse
  84. st_leonard
  85. aixe
  86. chambon
  87. ussel
  88. jaligny
  89. montaigut
  90. vichy
  91. st_gerand
  92. herment
  93. vic_le_comte
  94. allegre
  95. chalancon
  96. bage
  97. perreux
  98. villars
  99. thoire
  100. feurs
  101. riverie
  102. la_tour_du_pin
  103. romans
  104. privas
  105. montlaur
  106. la_mure
  107. condorcet
  108. mevouillon
  109. castelnau_de_medoc
  110. benauges
  111. riberac
  112. thiviers
  113. limeuil
  114. sarlat
  115. belin
  116. marmande
  117. montflanquin
  118. aire
  119. orthez
  120. gourdon
  121. peyrusse
  122. entraigues
  123. verdun_sur_garonne
  124. villemur
  125. lautrec
  126. st_affrique
  127. nogaro
  128. aspet
  129. peyre
  130. chateauneuf_de_randon
  131. florac
  132. st_ambroix
  133. fenouillet
  134. apt
  135. tarascon
  136. brignoles
  137. barjols
  138. draguignan
  139. castellane
  140. puget_theniers
  141. bonifacio
Added the following Lakes and Impassables:
  • hourtin_carcans_lake
  • lagoon_of_sanguinet
  • lagoon_of_bages_sigean
  • lagoon_of_salses
  • lagoon_of_vaccares
  • lagoon_of_berre
  • massif_central
  • dore_mountains
  • vercors_massif
  • vivarais_mountains
  • maritime_alps1
  • cottian_alps1
  • graian_alps1
  • dauphine_alps1
  • dauphine_alps2
  • pennine_alps1

Added the following TAGs (5):
  • Bearn
  • Ferrette
  • La Marche
  • Mont de Marsan
  • Perche

Reviewed:
  • Vegetation and Topography
  • Setup
  • Pops
  • Raw Goods
  • Added Cathar Pops and Religion

As a note, after the review, the location density in France is more aligned with that of Iberia, while still not as high as that of the Low Countries, Germany, and Italy. As I mentioned in previous posts, this DOES NOT mean that we will be adding hundreds of new locations in each review, but that we're trying to level a map of which their first locations were added back in 2020, so we get a smooth transition between the most dense and the less dense regions.

Without further ado, maps:

Countries:
View attachment 1158095
We've added a few minor countries; Béarn and Mont de Marsan are PUs of Foix, La Marche is a PU of Bourbonnais, and Perche is a PU of Alençon. Apart from that, the ruler of Ferrette/Pfirt is Joanna of Pfirt, spouse and consort of Duke Albrecht II of Austria, therefore starting on a PU with him. There are also a few meaningful changes in the shape of some countries, of which the ones for Auvergne probably are the most relevant. Oh, and also there's now a connection between the northern and southern crownlands, as per the locations of Brosse and Limoges, which makes the county of La Marche (another addition, ruled by Louis of Bourbon in PU) to be divided.

Locations:
View attachment 1158102
Location map with all the new locations. You might also notice the new lakes and wastelands added; the Central Masif is not any more such a complex place (although we've kept a few wastelands there), and we've improved a bit the mountain passes in the Alps, so they're now easier to understand, with less disconnected chunks, etc.

Provinces:
View attachment 1158104
Lots of changes in this mapmode! We've made a great rework of it thanks to your feedback, and we think that now provinces read much more flavorful. If you would have any more naming suggestions, please let us know!

Terrain:
View attachment 1158106
View attachment 1158108
Regarding the topography, we've adjusted the Central Masif and the Alps, we've added some marshlands (mostly on the western coast), and some more hilly locations here and there. Regarding the vegetation, we've also read and applied your feedback; farmlands are a bit more distributed, and some regions are less forested (Britanny, Landes), while others are more forested (Auvergne). BTW, ignore the different coloring of Narbonne, it's a graphical bug that appeared while taking the screenshots.

Cultures:
View attachment 1158128
Not many changes here, I just wanted to share an updated distribution of the cultures, after the new provinces were added. For this reason, there's no need to repost the religious map. Although, I'm letting you know one thing: We're adding a few Cathars to the region! However, that's not yet fully ready, as we need to gather some additional data; I'll share it with you as soon as it's fully ready.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1158126
Reviewed materials. France is no longer half-covered by Olives!

Population:
View attachment 1158129
New pops! I'm not attaching the country level, as there aren't many changes (e.g. France now has 5.601M inhabitants instead of 5.646). I might also have spoiled some WIP up in the British Isles...

One more time, thanks for your feedback! We'll read your comments in this thread, and check if there are any more tweaks that we might have to do. The next region review that we will most likely share with you is Italy, as we have less feedback to implement compared to Poland and the Baltic region, and we want to make sure that we take the time we need to have a proper review of it before sharing.

See you tomorrow again, in the Tinto Maps devoted to Carpathia and the Balkans!
1720126356473.png

Is the small Arpitan exclave intentional?
 
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Some minor feedback for Artois-Hainaut:
  1. some shuffling of trade goods according to Guicciardini (I introduced him here)
  2. Saint-Omer should perhaps be indicated as a marsh (Lakes and floodplains of Brédenaerde and marais Audomarois)
  3. Rename Boulogne-sur-mer to Boulogne
    • 'sur-mer' was added centuries later due to conflict with Boulogne near Paris (wikipedia, sorry), which ironically had it's name derived from the Boulogne we're talking about here.
    • Before the 14th century, Boulogne (near Paris) was a small village called Menuls-lès-Saint-Cloud.In the beginning of the 14th century, King Philip IV of France ordered the building in Menuls-lès-Saint-Cloud of a church dedicated to the virgin of the sanctuary of "Boulogne-sur-Mer", then a famous pilgrimage center in northern France. The church, meant to become a pilgrimage centre closer to Paris than the distant city of Boulogne-sur-Mer, was named Notre-Dame de Boulogne la Petite. Gradually, the village of Menuls-lès-Saint-Cloud became known as Boulogne-la-Petite, and later as Boulogne-sur-Seine.
1720124265420.png
1720124709159.png

Guicciardini's notes on which trade goods were imported from France to Antwerp in 1560s
- Brouage region: salt - check!
- Toulouse: woad (Dyes) - check!
- Bretagne and Normandy: Canvases and other linen - perhaps one more fiber_crops in Normandy area?
- Provence: olive oil, saffron, grain - saffron as spices?; maybe also one or two wheat/sturdy_grains?
- Luxury cloth: Paris, Rouen, Tours - perhaps for buildings present at start of game?
- Champagne: Borate (dyes) - one or two wheat/legumes provinces into dyes?
- Montpellier: Spanish green (dyes) - as medicaments is a rare good, perhaps in one of its neighboring locations.
- Lyon: Yarn (wool/silk) and Hennep (Fiber crops) - present in La Tour, but perhaps one mor province in the region?
- General: wine, honey, terpentine, tar, paper, glass, prunes and brazil wood - not useful
 
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Looks like you swapped Neuchâtel and Delémont as I commented in Tinto Maps #3
However, I think you forgot to swap the cultures of the 2 locations (Arpitan and Franc-comtois) creating a weird Arpitan exclave in Switzerland
 
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When embracing that term, perhaps the terrain type should be represented more on the map, but with different inherent maluses.
I'm working on a global wetland map that would make sense for the late medieval / early modern era, but it's difficult to get consistent global results.

My gut feeling goes out towards this subdivision:

in-game comboIRL subdivisionHabitationManeuvering/logisticsCombatSieges
Wetlands + farmlandsPolders or controlled floodplainsno penaltyno penalty / conditional high penalty*no penalty / conditional high penalty*high penalty
Wetlands + grasslandsmeadows / uncontrolled floodplainminor penaltyminor penaltyminor penaltyminor penalty
Wetlands + sparse"marshes" (herbaceous)
and bogs/fens (peatlands)
medium/high penaltymedium/high penaltymedium/high penaltyhigh penalty
Wetlands + woods/forestswampshigh penaltyhigh penaltyvery high penaltyvery high penalty
* conditional high penalty: polders/ controlled floodplains were very effective during wars to hamper the opponent. Ghent was considered unsiegable for the majority of the modern era, because they could flood the wetlands on demand; similar to what occurred in West-Flanders during WW1.

This subdivision of meadows would also allow for interesting terrain in the Hungarian plains, which has a very interesting wetland landscape (more on that when that TM drops).

A simple wikipedia schematic to assist my reasoning:
View attachment 1158230
Actually based on the schematic, it seems like you should switch the order of "meadow" and "marsh" (meadow being adjacent to swamp). But I think the following may be better from a naming perspective:

Wetland + Grassland = "Marsh"
Wetland + Sparse = "Mire"
Wetland + Forest = "Swamp"
 
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1. It's Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte, correct. I think that we may change it to Valognes, as it effectively become a more important town in Cotentin.
2. Looks like a good suggestion.
3. Renaming it to Harfleur also looks like a good suggestion.
4. We'll check this, as well.
5. Ouche doesn't look as convincing to me, TBH.
6. Just swapped the materials.

Thanks for your feedback on the feedback!
Could settlement toponyms in Project Caesar have optional suffixes that are only shown in text, but not on the map? Kind of like how Imperator shows the province a town belongs to, where prepositional suffixes (e.g. sur X, an der X, upon X, in X, am X, de X, etc.) are separated from the main name (since the former mostly serves to disambiguate it). This would help make the location map more readable.
 
Will the English Channel be called "La Manche" if you are a french tag?
 
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To be honest, there are a lot of adjustments to be made in the HRE lands, as it's a very tricky region. But we'll come to that in a Tinto Maps, in a few weeks.
Thanks. I suppose that's mostly related to the owners of each province and maybe trade goods; because I think you likely don't want to increase the provincial density there even further (apart from maybe Krain to get in all those non-Habsburgs possessions?), do you? But I certainly wouldn't mind more spoilers for the HRE provincial map ;)

Fingers crossed Tende is added by the Italy team
San Marino and Benevento are more important :p
 
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