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Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

Welcome everyone, today I’ll talk about the Scandinavian region. Part of it was the first maps we drew for Project Caesar back in early spring of 2020. Today we will look at all parts of the Scandinavian Peninsula (including Denmark & the Kola Peninsula). Greenland & Iceland will be looked at in a separate map talk.

Countries
SCA_countries.png

Scandinavia has only five location based countries at the start of the game. Denmark, who is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and their vassal Schleswig is in the south. On the peninsula proper, we have Sweden and Norway who are in a union at the moment as they share the same King. Scania was sold off to Sweden by the Danes five years before the start of the game.

There is no need to show off a Dynasty map, as Denmark does not exactly have a ruling King at the moment, and the rest is ruled by Magnus IV of the Bjälbo Dynasty.

Locations

sca_northlocations.png

sca_eastlocations.png

sca_westlocations.png

sca_centralocations.png


sca_southlocations.png

While Scandinavia has a lot of locations, we have to remember that this is a huge area, and together with Kola & Karelia, it is the same size as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy & Benelux together.. The size of locations are smaller in the south, particularly where the population was and still is relatively bigger.


Provinces
sca_provinces.png

We have tried to follow historical traditional province borders here, but some ended up too big like Småland, Lappland or Österbotten, which were cut into pieces, and some are just too tiny to matter.

Now I wish I had time to write up a history about each province here, but I’ll just add a few fun tidbits.

Satakunta, which is the Finnish name, is named in Finnish like the old regions of Svitjod, which were divided into “hundreds”. It was also refered to Björneborgs län, named after Björneborg (Pori in Finnish), a town founded by Johan III when Ulfsby was no longer accessible from the sea. The regiment from the area was the last Swedish Army Regiment that has ever won a battle inside Sweden, and their military march is a song I think every Finnish Citizen want to play repeatedly on TV during the Olympics..

Småland, which is divided into Tiohärad and Kalmar Län here, should really be referred to as Småländerna, as there were 12 small countries there.. Compared to the 3 other much larger countries of Svealand, Östra Götaland and Västra Götaland. And now why is Östra Götaland not containing Kinda?

Topograhy
sca_topography.png

It's mostly flatland.. I went by the rule that if the peaks are less than 500 meters it's flatland, and you need to have over 1,000 meters and rather uneven to be a mountain. Norway is interesting there.. We do have a lot of impassable areas in Norway, making this one of the most fun parts to play in.

Vegetation
sca_vegetation.png

There are some farmlands in Denmark, Scania and in Götaland, but the rest is basically a big forest.. And up north it's even worse.

Climate
sca_climate.png

Yeah, well. There is a reason I moved to Spain..


Cultures
sca_culture.png

Most of the north east is still Sami, and the Finnish tribes have not unified into the more modern Finnish culture. We decided to call the modern Meänkieli with their more ancient name of Kven. We still have Gutnish on Gotland, but the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish cultures have been becoming more monolithic already.

Religions
sca_religion.png


The Finnish are mostly Catholic, but the Sami, Tavastian, Savonia, Bjarmian and Karelians are mostly still following their old pagan beliefs. There are still some Norse people in the forests of Dalarna and Västmanland..

Raw Materials
sca_rawmaterials.png

It is mostly lumber, fish, wild game, fur and iron. We of course have the famous copper mountain as well.

Markets
sca_market.png

Scandinavia is divided by the rich markets of Lübeck and Riga. A strong Scandinavian country will probably want to set up their own unified market.


Population
sca_pop.png



Not many people live up in the north..
sca_eastpops.png


sca_west_pops.png

sca_south_pops.png

I liked nice round numbers as estimates, but the team I hired for content design are mad men, and wanted the distribution to feel more organic.. For the far north of Scandinavia we know that people were semi nomadic, and that some people lived there.. But if it was 100 there, or 250 there or 20 there it's just guesswork..


And let's end with a quote from the Greatest of Poets..

Jag vill, jag skall bli frisk, det får ej prutas,
Jag måste upp, om jag i graven låg.
Lyss, hör, ni hör kanonerna vid Jutas;
Där avgörs finska härens återtåg.



Next week Pavia is back with some German maps…
 
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I also do wonder what being a dominion means. Hopefully we will get a more in-depth explanation of subject types in a future TT
I wonder if we'll be able to create other historical Swedish dominions, such as the ones in the Baltic. Not sure if it's accurate to actually have them as vassals in the game. They were administered differently from older provinces, however, as they had no representation in the Riksdags, unlike the old provinces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominions_of_Sweden#Baltic_Dominions
 
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I have a question about the Sami peoples. without trying to bring up any controversy, as I know that historians might not have consensus about this, but:

are the southern Sami people currently present in the map? Because to me it seems like the Sami culture should be present more south, though it could be that they are, just too much of a minority to show up on the map?
I guess even in medieval times they should at least stretch to the Jämtland area, probably also a bit more south and west into Norway, which at least contemporary historians are considering to be true.

Then another question: is there a way to represent the true 'gold' of the North in the game somehow!?? Give me those DELICIOUS CLOUDBERRIES!
cloudberries-in-the-forest.jpg


I remember when I was in sweden, hiking trough some remote area, far away from civilization not to have any cellphone reach, unknowing that we had taken the wrong path for at least 30 minutes... to stumble upon this large marchy area with thousands upon thousands of these berries and a group of Sami people that were picking them, probably not amused that we found their 'secret' grounds... I guess the berries are a rarity indeed, but it seemed that to the Sami people even today it is an important part of their living/generating some money. I am sure a few 'berry' provinces here and there wouldn't hurt to bring some variety apart from the lumber and wild game in those northern areas...

Though I guess you could also represent them as 'medicine', wich maybe you already have since I spotted at least 2 of these 'raw materials' in Norway and Sweden.

I found this interesting article about how the cloudberry (and probably other berries) were used to ward off scurvy! So it certainly has some uses for the age of sail, as the Norwegians benefited from it greatly!
 
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This would make this area be one of the densest in locations in Europe, but also very depopulated, and basically useless.
Which tbh western norway basicaly was, especially Sogn and Firda at the time; basically isolated low population regions of little to no value; so it would be highly accurate to represent it in such a manner. The building of infrastructure and production in the region should be inefficient considering how decentralized the region was up until post ww1.
 
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and I agree that there's a couple of locations in the middle of Jylland that can be merged into neighbourghs,
I don't necessarily think they should be merged, I think they should be renamed and the borders redrawn, as both areas can easily be formed into Jellingsyssel and Løversyssel, with Vejle and Horsens being the main towns in these areas(and Silkeborg integrated into the Aarhus location)

Both Vejle and Horsens were market towns in the era, and it would represent better that the main area of population in Jutland is and has always been along the East Coast, where the soil is better for farming.

Also today, Horsens, Kolding and Vejle are neck on neck with each other in size, being the 7th, 8th and 9th largest towns in the country, all of them having between 61K and 63K inhabitants.
 
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What is the reason for Scania being a dominion insted of being integrated?
Because it wasn't really an integrated domain at the time? Scania as well as large parts of Denmark had been mortgaged out just 5 years prior to the start date by Christopher II, because of a bankruptcy.

The Danish Crown regained Scania less than 30 years after the start date.
 
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I showed my calculations in another post here. But in any case, the 30-40% number is completely absurd. If it were accurate, the Finnish language would hardly even exist today. Swedish rule and settlement in Finland at this point was still very young and would only intensify in the centuries following the start of the game! Please explain how the Swedish population could go from 30-40% in 1337 to 17.5% in 1610 under these conditions.
I challenge you to find a historian of Medieval Finland who would agree with that estimation. My medieval Finnish history major friend certainly finds the figures (and the geographical distribution) absurd.
Shouldn't... I meant to say shouldn't, hence why I'm saying that I agree with you.
 
I have a question about the Sami peoples. without trying to bring up any controversy, as I know that historians might not have consensus about this, but:

are the southern Sami people currently present in the map? Because to me it seems like the Sami culture should be present more south, though it could be that they are, just too much of a minority to show up on the map?
I guess even in medieval times they should at least stretch to the Jämtland area, probably also a bit more south and west into Norway, which at least contemporary historians are considering to be true.

Then another question: is there a way to represent the true 'gold' of the North in the game somehow!?? Give me those DELICIOUS CLOUDBERRIES!
cloudberries-in-the-forest.jpg


I remember when I was in sweden, hiking trough some remote area, far away from civilization not to have any cellphone reach, unknowing that we had taken the wrong path for at least 30 minutes... to stumble upon this large marchy area with thousands upon thousands of these berries and a group of Sami people that were picking them, probably not amused that we found their 'secret' grounds... I guess the berries are a rarity indeed, but it seemed that to the Sami people even today it is an important part of their living/generating some money. I am sure a few 'berry' provinces here and there wouldn't hurt to bring some variety apart from the lumber and wild game in those northern areas...

Though I guess you could also represent them as 'medicine', wich maybe you already have since I spotted at least 2 of these 'raw materials' in Norway and Sweden.

I found this interesting article about how the cloudberry (and probably other berries) were used to ward off scurvy! So it certainly has some uses for the age of sail, as the Norwegians benefited from it greatly!
Cloudberries are indeed delicious, but I think export is a pretty modern thing. The logistics wouldn't have allowed in the past, and even today it's an arduous ordeal and it keeps the price very high.
 
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I was thinking about how to best represent the region of Eastern Karelia and I may have come up with a solution, that is, in my opinion, far better than the current empty wasteland.

For those of you who are confused, this is the "wasteland" I'm referring to:

sca_northlocations.png


I propose making a couple changes to existing locations, while also adding a few new ones along with corridors connecting them. I have tried to illustrate these changes in the picture below:

karelia_changes.png


Explanations for each of the numbered items:
  1. Change the shape of the location of Kuhmo so, that some space in the south is freed up for Repola, while giving it some more territories in the north to include the Lentua, Lentiira, Kalliojoki & Vartius areas (circled area in the picture above, some of the aforementioned locations can be seen in the picture). The shape of Kuhmo seems a little bit off and it might be due to these areas being either in Suomussalmi or within the wasteland.
  2. Add the location of Repola. It was first mentioned in mid-1500s but has existed probably longer than that as it sits along old traderoutes.
  3. Add a corridor between Kuhmo and Jyškyjärvi (Rus. Yushkozero). The corridor could follow Lentua-Kiimasjärvi-Nuokkijärvi route.
  4. Add the location of Jyškyjärvi as it sits at the confluence of multiple waterways.
  5. Add a corridor between Jyškyjärvi and Uhtua. The corridor could follow along Upper- and Lower- Kuittijärvi lakes.
  6. Add a corridor between Jyškyjärvi and Kem. The corridor could follow the river Kem.
  7. Add the location of Uhtua/Kalevala. It sits along the waterways and also might have some cultural significance to some countries/regions...
  8. Add a corridor between Uhtua and Suomussalmi. The corridor could follow Kuitojärvi-Vuokkiniemi route.
  9. Add a corridor between Uhtua and Pääjärvi. The corridor could follow the Pistojoki-Pistojärvi route.
  10. Add the location of Pääjärvi. Honestly I don't have much information on this location, as it is already quite far from my home region. It was mentioned in a book I'm about to reference but any additional info is welcome...
  11. Add a corridor between Pääjärvi and Kouta (Rus. Kovda, maybe a typo there or am I mistaken?).
These changes were based on information found in the book called Kainuun historia I (Engl. The History of Kainuu vol. I) along with some personal knowledge I have as a local of the Eastern Finnish / Karelian regions. The picture below can be found on page 245 in the book I mentioned, the double lines are commonly used waterways and overland routes:

history_of_kainuu.jpg

Huurre M., Keränen J. (1986). Kainuun historia I, p. 245.

I hope this post reaches the devs, as these changes would go a long way in simulating the interconnectivity of the region, while retaining the sense of remoteness at the same time. :) Also, any comments / constructive criticism regarding this idea are welcome!
 
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For starters I want to say that I am positively surprised by many things! Having the tribal division and Finnic paganism on the map is huge and I was fully prepared to write a long argument for their inclusion. The area Sweden contols also looks close to pretty accurate. Thumbs up for all the people that worked on the map so far :)

Map overall

I'll just with the biggest problem which is the wasteland in White Karelia. I don't know your rationale for that, since the region was used for trade and military raids throughout the time perdiod, as others have already pointed out in the thread.

Second is the lack of lakes. The lakeland was a major obstacle for armies moving on foot, and right now it seems like it's not gonna do much. Visually speaking it's not great either and the shapes and sizes of the lakes are not spot on. Granted, many of them are narrow at points and the shorelines are quite convoluted. Maybe overdo the lakes a little and remove smaller islands to make it look nice and the lakes function as obstacles? Below is an example where the lakes look a little larger than on a satellite image.

This way, for example, Savonlinna / Nyslott would have the role it actually had historically, blocking movement from the east.

I'm also interested to hear how you'll handle rivers. Finland doesn't have many great rivers like the Danube, but plenty were navigable back then and the lakeland still serves as an important mode of transport.

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Provinces

Provinces look like they were based on the historical provinces (landskap, maakunta), which is good, but there is some wonkiness going on, which I reckon is just due to the shapes of locations. For example, Savolax should not reach the lake Oulu (Oulujärvi). Something very weird is going on around the border or White Karelia and Inner Österbotten. The border around Salla looks like the 1945 border once again. It should be a little to the east. Then up north in Eastern Lapland the Jäniskoski-Niskakoski triangle was sold to USSR in 1947.

I much dislike how Österbotten looks currently - it's just weird. Have it extend just a little east and north for pretty borders? I would also put the northernmost locations in "Inner Österbotten" over to the Lapland province. And since the whole "Inner Österbotten" is just an arbitrary invention, maybe we could change it to "Kajanaland"/"Kainuu" for example? Although this naming conventain is a little bit more modern (1600s). It's just that the whole "botten/botn/bay" name doesn't make that much sense when you go that much inland. I'll give you that it is hard to get it "feel" right.

It looks like Åland is a part of Uppland, which I must disagree with. I'd make it its own province just like Gotland. Afterall, it was its own thing back in the day: Kastelholms län.

And, oh, please rename Egentliga Finland to just "Finland" - thanks.

Karelia taking all of the isthmus is fine and makes for pretty borders. "Far Karelia" as a name doesn't work, because at least historians use the term to refer to the region between lake Onega and the Northern Dvina river. "North Karelia" would sound better in this context.

The border between White and Olonets Karelia is also a little bit too south in my opinion. I think most would place White Karelia north of Lake Segozero (Seesjärvi), but the administrative divisions have been quite varying throughout the times. Olonets Karelia on the other hand I would confine northwest of the river Svir (Syväri) just based on a "pretty borders" argument, although Karelians did live southeast of the river. At the very least it should not extend east of the south tip of lake Onega.


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1) Historical provinces of Finland. Situation before the Treaty of Teusina, which is why Österbotten looks like that.
2) Sketch for Finnish border adjustments.
3) Sketch for Karelian border adjustments.


Locations

Locations seem to be a little all over the place. A weird mix of Swedish and Finnish names but that will sort itself out when you roll out dynamic naming. But more pressingly there are a lot of locations named after places that were founded hundreds of years after game start, some even in the 19th century.. The actual locations of some of the locations make little sense, and some borders are very weird. One good source for naming is the map of 1635 sockens but some of the shapes are very wonky too.


Nyland / Uusimaa

Looks good but Kotka was not founded until 1878. "Kymi" (1642) makes for a good alternative, but I would say go for "Pyhtää" (1380) as it was the big parish before Kymi became a thing. The border in the east should reflect the position of the eastern fork of the Kymi river.


Karelia / Karjala

Fredrikshamn should be "Vehkalahti". Frediskhamn/Hamina was founded in 1653 so I think it's not the best name for the location.
Vederlax/Virolahti good. Viborg/Viipuri good. Björkö/Koivisto good.
Villmanstrad should be "Lappee".
Kyyrölä I would rename to "Muolaa" (first mentioned in the 1300s).
Konevets is just the monastery, so I would rename it to "Sakkula" since that pogosta has been around from the 1200s.
Kexholm/Käkisalmi is good.
Lahdenpohja I would rename to "Kurkijoki", as it has been mentioned in the records way earlier. The location also extends too far west.
Heinjoki should be renamed to Jäskis/Jääski.
Jäskis should then be renamed to Ruokolahti.


North Karelia / Pohjois-Karjala

Salmi is good.
Sordavala/Sortavala is good.
Suojärvi is good.
Loymola should probably "Pälkjärvi".
Vartsila should be "Tohmäjärvi" or maybe "Kitee".
Joensuu should be "Liperi".
Ilomantsi is okay, but should include that Mökhö-thing or whatever you mean by that location.
Lieksa should be "Pielisjärvi".
Juuka and Joensuu should be "Liperi"
Nurmes I would remove.

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Savolax / Savo

Kouvola should probably be "Valkeala" or maybe "Itis" / "Iitti".
Ristiina is okay.
Heinola is not in Savolax to begin with, so this should probably be Mäntyharju.
Mikkeli is fine, but should preferrably have its original name "Savilax" / "Savilahti", which was used until the 1600s.
Kangasniemi should be "Pieksämäki".
Joroinen is good.
Olofsborg should be "Nyslott" / "Savonlinna".
Savonranta probably wants to be "Rantasalmi" instead.
Kuopio is good (but one could make an argument for "Maaninka", which was meant to be central location before Kuopio was founded).
Rautavaara is good. PS. Can we have iron in the place literally called "iron hill"?
Idensalmi / Iisalmi is good BUT that should be the northernmost location in Savolax.
Kajana / Kajaani should be in Kajanaland / Kainuu, not Savolax.

Tavastland / Häme

Liljendal should probably be "Uusikylä"
Janakkala is good.
Somero seems good.
Forssa is too new so go with either "Portas" / "Porras" (1500->) or even more OG and use "Loimo" (<-1500).
Tavastehus / Hämeenlinna is good naturally.
Lahti (1878) should be "Hollola" (1328).
Itis is good but the shape and location of the location is a little weird.
Joutsa should be "Hartola".
Jämsä is good.
Jyväskylä (1823) should be "Laukas" / "Laukaa".
Laukas should then be "Rautalampi".
Saarijärvi is okay probably.
Viitasaari is okay probably.

Satakunta

Raumo / Rauma is good. Björneborg / Pori is good. Sastmola / Merikarvia is good. Hyttis / Huittinen is good. Sastamala is good.
Ulfsby / Ulvila is not good. It should probably be "Hämeenkyrö" or maybe "Ikaalinen", although the latter was cut off of the former only in the 1600s.
Tammerfors probably should be "Pirkkala".
Orivesi should be "Ruovesi".

Finland / Suomi

Åbo / Turku is good.
Nystad (1622) probably wants to be "Kaland" / "Kalanti".
Salo should be Muurla.
Pöytis / Pöytyä is good.

Österbotten / Itäpohja

Koppo - I guess you mean Koppöstad as in Kristinestad (1649), which should probably be "Lappfjärd" / "Lapväärtti" (1303).

Storkyro / Isokyrö is good. Korsholm / Mustasaari is good. Vörå / Vöyri is good. Lappo / Lapua is good. Pedersöre / Pietarsaari is good. Kaustby / Kaustinen is good. Karleby / Kokkola is good. Brahestad / Raahe is good. Uleåborg / Oulu is good.

Kuivaniemi (1867) should be "Ijo" / "Ii" (~1374).
Simo is quite modern but I guedd you need something for location density.
Kiemi should be "Kemi".

Inner Österbotten and Eastern Lapland

Everything looks more or less okay as far as the names go, but do take a look at the shapes of the locations, please? For example, they way Kajaani, Paltamo and Sotkamo are in relation to each other makes no sense.


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Topography, Vegetation and Climate

Well, people have already been arguing about this in the thread so no point saying much else. If you've ever been to eastern Finland, you'd think that it is not "flatlands". I understand that you need to make rulings based on some logic, but being from Kainuu it feels very silly when you classify my hilly homeland as "flatlands" just like the Netherlands or Denmark.

Might I suggest that you at least bring the Lapland hills down to around Kainuu? As in the yellowish on the map below?

Vegetation look like it is pretty much spot on. Not a lot of the forests had been cut down for cultivation at this point of time.
Nothing to argue about the Climate map.


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Cultures and Religion

This one need some correcting I'm afraid. Finns (Proper) should be quite contained inside the Finland province. Tavastians on the other hand should take pretty much everyhing they have on the western and southern coasts. Karelians should extend all the way to the Kymi river. The map below depicts the situation around the 1200s. The black lines indicate the Swedish settlements. The seoncd map estimates the range of ancient Kvenland based on archaelogical digs.

The books I've got handy say that Tavastian and Karelian settlement clashed roughly around the Kymi river. No Tavastians lived east of it, and only some evidence is for Karelians having been west of it. Savonians and Tavastians on the other hand clashed around Mäntyharju and Pertunmaa so the cultural border between hem looks pretty good. Kvens should propbably extend all the way down to Korsholm. As for the Swedish settlement in Nyland, their colonisation had stopped at Pyhtää.

Some people were also talking about the numbers in this thread, and the Swedish population does seems quite high. Meanwhile, the overall population seems a little low? I'm sure you ran your own estimates based on some data, but if 1560 population was just shy of 300k, some estimates would place the population in the range of 50k to 80k already in the 1200s.

Also, there shouldn't be Finns on Åland.

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Source 1: Blomstedt, Y., Laaksonen, E., Pärssinen, E., Suvanto, S., Kiuasmaa, K., & Korhonen, T. (1985). Suomen historia: 2, Keskiaika, valtaistuinriitojen ja uskonpuhdistuksen aika, kansankulttuurin juuret. Weilin + Göös.
Source 2: Julku, K., Paavola, K., & Societas historica Finlandiae septentrionalis. (1986). Kvenland - Kainuunmaa. Pohjoinen : Pohjois-Suomen historiallinen yhdistys [distributor]

For Karelians in the east I didn't find any good sources just now, but surely they lived south of the Svir river in the 1300s? Russians didn't start settling north of Svir until much laters as well. The Karelians and Veps were slowly migrating north due to the Slavic expansion, but they shouldn't be quite that far north at this point.

Behold my adjusted culture map:
AD_4nXcI98w_mTiUnh3vszIwZle8dkUdg41t-srjtcwHEvhk_3DIkeV67j7dWYLRS2G5XKgjEzCJkMIYfVHzJr0_Z_O5ywWOD5U7XPEoTEJ8Ne3s9yOL00N_z7Mk7Fx-4uF8GMJb8IBRVVAvpzhv0ApOZ_vJP7xP


Religion-wise things look accurate enough. What I would change is the name, though. "Suomenusko" is a term used to refer to modern practices emulating and preserving the old ways. It would be better to use the term "Finnic Paganism", as it is called in English as opposed to "Modern Finnish Paganism", i.e., "Suomenusko".

Raw Materials

Raw materials map looks like what I'd expect. Maybe I'd like to see more fish around the great lakes and rivers, because they were actually exported and exchanged for grain. Maybe throw medicament somewhere in there among the furs, because beavers were hunted not only for their fur but also for their... medicaments. Finland never had a lot of iron mines, but maybe all of the bog and lake iron is worth something - one or two extra iron locations somewhere in the lakeland? I also think that Karelia had copper somewhere but couldn't find any sources just now. Maybe that's the tin you've got there already. Additionally, I'd love to see some livestock around the Bay of Bothnia, as there were "a lot" of them around that area specifically because crops didn't do that well.
 
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Filling in the blanks
1721475584916.png

So as others in this thread have already said, this impassable is bad, nonsensical and worst of all, completely ahistorical. Viena Karelia, also known as White Karelia or East Karelia, was not some uninhabited wasteland. It was populated, relatively important historically and was travelled through by both armies and merchants, as other people have already shown in their posts.

For example, the drainage basin of the Kemi river is in this impassable "wasteland". This river and its tributaries and lakes were used for east-west travel by karelians for centuries. The village of Uhtua, modern day Kalevala, is located in this black space. The lands of the rune-singers, the place where Elias Lönnrot found ancient finnic mythology preserved in oral tradition for many generations.

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And it's just erased. I don't really know what happened behind the scenes, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is fixing this, as others have said. But unlike others, I will provide a concrete suggestion of what to put here in this "empty space".

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Note that these are just my suggestions. Do your own research. Also note that Alakurtti is a rather modern name, a settlement founded in the 1800s by finns.

Now it's important to note that this area wasn't very settled in 1300s yet. But this was the case for the locations directly west in modern-day Finland too, so I see no reason to make a distinction between them. At game start these lands should be Sami majority like in the west and north, with potential for colonization and settlement that happened historically in the game's time period. Aforementioned Uhtua and the Kuittijärvi area in general were settled in the 1500s by Karelians.
Here is a more detailed source about the settlement of Karelians in Viena, available in swedish so Johan can read it without translation:

EDIT: @Jarzki you posted while I was writing this lol, well the more people post about this the better

EDIT 2: Instead of Alakurtti, you could use Koutajärvenpää. This area was pretty empty during eu5's timespan, but Koutajärvenpää is known to exist in the 1800s and is said to be the northernmost Viena Karelian village according to finnish wikipedia: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koutajärvenpää
So it is not ideal, but better than nothing. Also make sure the location's border includes it.

Alternatively, use Kuolajärvi, which is slightly west of Alakurtti and is the historical name of the local Sami Siida: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siida

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For starters I want to say that I am positively surprised by many things! Having the tribal division and Finnic paganism on the map is huge and I was fully prepared to write a long argument for their inclusion. The area Sweden contols also looks close to pretty accurate. Thumbs up for all the people that worked on the map so far :)

Map overall

I'll just with the biggest problem which is the wasteland in White Karelia. I don't know your rationale for that, since the region was used for trade and military raids throughout the time perdiod, as others have already pointed out in the thread.

Second is the lack of lakes. The lakeland was a major obstacle for armies moving on foot, and right now it seems like it's not gonna do much. Visually speaking it's not great either and the shapes and sizes of the lakes are not spot on. Granted, many of them are narrow at points and the shorelines are quite convoluted. Maybe overdo the lakes a little and remove smaller islands to make it look nice and the lakes function as obstacles? Below is an example where the lakes look a little larger than on a sattelite image.

This way, for example, Savonlinna / Nyslott would have the role it actually had historically, blocking movement from the east.

I'm also interested to hear how you'll handle rivers. Finland doesn't have many great rivers like the Danube, but plenty were navigable back then and the lakeland still serves as an important mode of transport.

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Provinces

Provinces look like they were based on the historical provinces (landskap, maakunta), which is good, but there is some wonkiness going on, which I reckon is just due to the shapes of locations. For example, Savolax should not reach the lake Oulu (Oulujärvi). Something very weird is going on around the border or White Karelia and Inner Österbotten. The border around Salla looks like the 1945 border once again. It should be a little to the east. Then up north in Eastern Lapland the Jäniskoski-Niskakoski triangle was sold to USSR in 1947.

I much dislike how Österbotten looks currently - it's just weird. Have it extend just a little east and north for pretty borders? I would also put the northernmost locations in "Inner Österbotten" over to the Lapland province. And since the whole "Inner Österbotten" is just an arbitrary invention, maybe we could change it to "Kajanaland"/"Kainuu" for example? Although this naming conventain is a little bit more modern (1600s). It's just that the whole "botten/botn/bay" name doesn't make that much sense when you go that much inland. I'll give you that it is hard to get it "feel" right.

It looks like Åland is a part of Uppland, which I must disagree with. I'd make it its own province just like Gotland. Afterall, it was its own thing back in the day: Kastelholms län.

And, oh, please rename Egentliga Finland to just "Finland" - thanks.

Karelia taking all of the isthmus is fine and makes for pretty borders. "Far Karelia" as a name doesn't work, because at least historians use the term to refer to the region between lake Onega and the Northern Dvina river. "North Karelia" would sound better in this context.

The border between White and Olonets Karelia is also a little bit too south in my opinion. I think most would place White Karelia north of Lake Segozero (Seesjärvi), but the administrative divisions have been quite varying throughout the times. Olonets Karelia on the other hand I would confine northwest of the river Svir (Syväri) just based on a "pretty borders" argument, although Karelians did live southeast of the river. At the very least it should not extend east of the south tip of lake Onega.


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AD_4nXdHljSJxsqihMsFHpTSO2-gDCPC43WJiDbyUDSWy7vih7k8MKPTuCSTy4XXByhp7XIvSuMxrNIP5WiwfWqp9RkhBwQ2tXucxSqaDD1lydGUjCSccPwyO_1hx_-E1taIfrhZP-V_EOXZtxKXMPkjm2RhCTs


1) Historical provinces of Finland. Situation before the Treaty of Teusina, which is why Österbotten looks like that.
2) Sketch for Finnish border adjustments.
3) Sketch for Karelian border adjustments.


Locations

Locations seem to be a little all over the place. A weird mix of Swedish and Finnish names but that will sort itself out when you roll out dynamic naming. But more pressingly there are a lot of locations named after places that were founded hundreds of years after game start, some even in the 19th century.. The actual locations of some of the locations make little sense, and some borders are very weird. One good source for naming is the map of 1635 sockens but some of the shapes are very wonky too.


Nyland / Uusimaa

Looks good but Kotka was not founded until 1878. "Kymi" (1642) makes for a good alternative, but I would say go for "Pyhtää" (1380) as it was the big parish before Kymi became a thing. The border in the east should reflect the position of the eastern fork of the Kymi river.


Karelia / Karjala

Fredrikshamn should be "Vehkalahti". Frediskhamn/Hamina was founded in 1653 so I think it's not the best name for the location.
Vederlax/Virolahti good. Viborg/Viipuri good. Björkö/Koivisto good.
Villmanstrad should be "Lappee".
Kyyrölä I would rename to "Muolaa" (first mentioned in the 1300s).
Konevets is just the monastery, so I would rename it to "Sakkula" since that pogosta has been around from the 1200s.
Kexholm/Käkisalmi is good.
Lahdenpohja I would rename to "Kurkijoki", as it has been mentioned in the records way earlier. The location also extends too far west.
Heinjoki should be renamed to Jäskis/Jääski.
Jäskis should then be renamed to Ruokolahti.


North Karelia / Pohjois-Karjala

Salmi is good.
Sordavala/Sortavala is good.
Suojärvi is good.
Loymola should probably "Pälkjärvi".
Vartsila should be "Tohmäjärvi" or maybe "Kitee".
Joensuu should be "Liperi".
Ilomantsi is okay, but should include that Mökhö-thing or whatever you mean by that location.
Lieksa should be "Pielisjärvi".
Juuka and Joensuu should be "Liperi"
Nurmes I would remove.

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Savolax / Savo

Kouvola should probably be "Valkeala" or maybe "Itis" / "Iitti".
Ristiina is okay.
Heinola is not in Savolax to begin with, so this should probably be Mäntyharju.
Mikkeli is fine, but should preferrably have its original name "Savilax" / "Savilahti", which was used until the 1600s.
Kangasniemi should be "Pieksämäki".
Joroinen is good.
Olofsborg should be "Nyslott" / "Savonlinna".
Savonranta probably wants to be "Rantasalmi" instead.
Kuopio is good (but one could make an argument for "Maaninka", which was meant to be central location before Kuopio was founded).
Rautavaara is good. PS. Can we have iron in the place literally called "iron hill"?
Idensalmi / Iisalmi is good BUT that should be the northernmost location in Savolax.
Kajana / Kajaani should be in Kajanaland / Kainuu, not Savolax.

Tavastland / Häme

Liljendal should probably be "Uusikylä"
Janakkala is good.
Somero seems good.
Forssa is too new so go with either "Portas" / "Porras" (1500->) or even more OG and use "Loimo" (<-1500).
Tavastehus / Hämeenlinna is good naturally.
Lahti (1878) should be "Hollola" (1328).
Itis is good but the shape and location of the location is a little weird.
Joutsa should be "Hartola".
Jämsä is good.
Jyväskylä (1823) should be "Laukas" / "Laukaa".
Laukas should then be "Rautalampi".
Saarijärvi is okay probably.
Viitasaari is okay probably.

Satakunta

Raumo / Rauma is good. Björneborg / Pori is good. Sastmola / Merikarvia is good. Hyttis / Huittinen is good. Sastamala is good.
Ulfsby / Ulvila is not good. It should probably be "Hämeenkyrö" or maybe "Ikaalinen", although the latter was cut off of the former only in the 1600s.

Finland / Suomi

Åbo / Turku is good.
Nystad (1622) probably wants to be "Kaland" / "Kalanti".
Salo should be Muurla.
Pöytis / Pöytyä is good.

Österbotten / Itäpohja

Koppo - I guess you mean Koppöstad as in Kristinestad (1649), which should probably be "Lappfjärd" / "Lapväärtti" (1303).

Storkyro / Isokyrö is good. Korsholm / Mustasaari is good. Vörå / Vöyri is food. Lappo / Lapua is good. Pedersöre / Pietarsaari is good. Kaustby / Kaustinen is good. Karleby / Kokkola is good. Brahestad / Raahe is good. Uleåborg / Oulu is good.

Kuivaniemi (1867) should be "Ijo" / "Ii" (~1374).
Simo is quite modern but I guedd you need something for location density.
Kiemi should be "Kemi".

Inner Österbotten and Eastern Lapland

Everything looks more or less okay as far as the names go, but do take a look at the shapes of the locations, please? For example, they way Kajaani, Paltamo and Sotkamo are in relation to each other makes no sense.


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Topography, Vegetation and Climate

Well, people have already been arguing about this in the thread so no point saying much else. If you've ever been to eastern Finland, you'd think that it is not "flatlands". I understand that you need to make rulings based on some logic, but being from Kainuu it feels very silly when you classify my hilly homeland as "flatlands" just like the Netherlands or Denmark.

Might I suggest that you at least bring the Lapland hills down to around Kainuu? As in the yellowish on the map below?

Vegetation look like it is pretty much spot on. Not a lot of the forests had been cut down for cultivation at this point of time.
Nothing to argue about the Climate map.


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Cultures and Religion

This one need some correcting I'm afraid. Finns (Proper) should be quite contained inside the Finland province. Tavastians on the other hand should take pretty much everyhing they have on the western and southern coasts. Karelians should extend all the way to the Kymi river. The map below depicts the situation around the 1200s. The black lines indicate the Swedish settlements. The seoncd map estimates the range of ancient Kvenland based on archaelogical digs.

The books I've got handy say that Tavastian and Karelian settlement clashed roughly around the Kymi river. No Tavastians lived east of it, and only some evidence is for Karelians having been west of it. Savonians and Tavastians on the other hand clashed around Mäntyharju and Pertunmaa so the cultural border between hem looks pretty good. Kvens should propbably extend all the way down to Korsholm. As for the Swedish settlement in Nyland, their colonisation had stopped at Pyhtää.

Some people were also talking about the numbers in this thread, and the Swedish population does seems quite high. Meanwhile, the overall population seems a little low? I'm sure you ran your own estimates based on some data, but if 1560 population was just shy of 300k, some estimates would place the population in the range of 50k to 80k already in the 1200s.

Also, there shouldn't be Finns on Åland.

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Source 1: Blomstedt, Y., Laaksonen, E., Pärssinen, E., Suvanto, S., Kiuasmaa, K., & Korhonen, T. (1985). Suomen historia: 2, Keskiaika, valtaistuinriitojen ja uskonpuhdistuksen aika, kansankulttuurin juuret. Weilin + Göös.
Source 2: Julku, K., Paavola, K., & Societas historica Finlandiae septentrionalis. (1986). Kvenland - Kainuunmaa. Pohjoinen : Pohjois-Suomen historiallinen yhdistys [distributor]

For Karelians in the east I didn't find any good sources just now, but surely they lived south of the Svir river in the 1300s? Russians didn't start settling north of Svir until much laters as well. The Karelians and Veps were slowly migrating north due to the Slavic expansion, but they shouldn't be quite that far north at this point.

Behold my adjusted culture map:
AD_4nXcI98w_mTiUnh3vszIwZle8dkUdg41t-srjtcwHEvhk_3DIkeV67j7dWYLRS2G5XKgjEzCJkMIYfVHzJr0_Z_O5ywWOD5U7XPEoTEJ8Ne3s9yOL00N_z7Mk7Fx-4uF8GMJb8IBRVVAvpzhv0ApOZ_vJP7xP


Religion-wise things look accurate enough. What I would change is the name, though. "Suomenusko" is a term used to refer to modern practices emulating and preserving the old ways. It would be better to use the term "Finnic Paganism", as it is called in English as opposed to "Modern Finnish Paganism", i.e., "Suomenusko".

Raw Materials

Raw materials map looks like what I'd expect. Maybe I'd like to see more fish around the great lakes and rivers, because they were actually exported and exchanged for grain. Maybe throw medicament somewhere in there among the furs, because beavers were hunted not only for their fur but also for their... medicaments. Finland never had a lot of iron mines, but maybe all of the bog and lake iron is worth something - one or two extra iron locations somewhere in the lakeland? I also think that Karelia had copper somewhere but couldn't find any sources just now. Maybe that's the tin you've got there already. Additionally, I'd love to see some livestock around the Bay of Bothnia, as there were "a lot" of them around that area specifically because crops didn't do that well.
You made a lot of the same suggestions that I made, so I fully agree with these! The more people point out the same things, the more likely it is that they will be fixed.
 
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I see a lot of locations in northern Sweden that I'd like to comment on, so here goes:

"Silbojock" kinda implies "Jockmock", no? And the same goes for all other instances of ck/kk, it seems inconsistent.

Gellivaara seems like a mash up between Swedish (soft G) and Finnish (-vaara), but isn't it a Saami culture location?

Then I see a few potential misspellings, "Juckasjärvi", "Enontekis", "Gråtsk" and "Korpilombolo".

To be clear though, some of these comments do seem like they could be based on historical names, and I did find mention of "Gråtesk" (lol, achievement for conquering it as U?) on Wikipedia. But the others? Also on a similar note, was "Arjeplog" the historical name for that location? I ask because it used to be "Arjepluog" for most of the 20th century.
Gellivaara is indeed strange, seems to be some weird mashup. It's Jällivaare in Finnish or Jiellevárri/várre in Sami or Jellivaara in Mieänkieli.
 
I vehemently disagree, but given I was born in the Netherlands, I acknowledge my perspective is skewed.
Not that skewed. The photo shown has an outcrop that could be used for a castle, even. It's still in the rolling hills category for me, but barely.
Netherlands are a mostly featureless plains with some ditches, the effect on battles and fortifications would be quite different.

For the record, I'm from Mecklenburg, which is a fairly flat, but has some smaller hills and creeks everywhere, sometimes with noticeable inclines. I'd consider this rolling hills as well, given the contrast to level flood plains. I'm not a military historian, though.

The logic behind the classifications seems to be different in each area so far. And we don't know the effects at all. Maybe the battle talk next week will shed some light on it.
 
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Yeah but there are way more people in the balcans than Sandinavia, if let's say, Sweden can convert 20 people per year, they would be able to convert the vast majority of these locations in less than 50 years
In real history, that's kinda what happened though. The Sami would often become a minority after a generation or so when Scandinavians or Finns moved in due to very low Sami population numbers.
 
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I seriously doubt on the existence of Kvenland as a sedentary region by this time. The inhabitants of the region of Northern Ostrobothnia and beyond don't show evidence of substinence farming but fishing and foraging.
There are several possible explanations for the observed results. Firstly, due to a lack of indication of starvation in most individuals, it is possible that cultivation did not play any significant role in the diet of the people of Iin Hamina. Thus, harvest failures during the Little Ice Ace did not cause famine. Even though the history of cultivation in Northern Ostrobothnia is unknown, pollen studies indicate that it was likely very small scale (Reynaud and Hjelmroos 1980; Lahtinen and Rowley-Conwy 2013).
 
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