• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
  • 175Love
  • 119Like
  • 4Haha
  • 4
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:
Maybe not the correct thread to post this in, since it's about the Netherlands (but I do see them on the map here!) and sort of the related because Free Cities. Will Culemborg be reinstated as a free city? During this period it wasn't part of the any other Dutch county but instead a free city. It wasn't until the 18th century that it was incorporated into the Dutch Republic.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Area Names and Borders: (a bit more medival than modern)
View attachment 1168210
The "von Mark" dynasty, which later had a french cadet branch knwon as "de la Marck" should be called "von der Mark"
This seems mostly fine, outside of the border between Sachsen and Brandenburg. If Sachsen is intended to represent Meißen after it got enfeoffed with the Electorship, it needs to go farther north. As is it only has one of the Locations of the actual Electorship (Sachsen-Wittenberg).
I'd personally argue that the name doesn't really make sense though - It's a renaming of the general area and people that only came about because of something that happened in 1423 - Not exactly guaranteed. Call it Meißen instead and avoid "Sachsen" on the map altogether.

Likewise for the culture really. Most of the Electorship of Saxony at the start isn't even "Saxon", it's "Brandenburgish".
1722024843556.png
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Some corrections for provinces:

- Rheingau: exclude Offenbach and Erbach, include Heidelberg and rename to Bergstraße
- combine Erbach, Miltenberg, Buchen and Mosbach in the new Province Odenwald
- combine Offenbach, Hanau and Aschaffenburg in the new Province Maingau
- Hohenloher Ebene: exclude Backnang, Welzheim and Aalen, include Mergentheim and Tauberbischofsheim
- Riesgau: exclude everything exept Dinkelsbühl, include Aalen and Donauwörth
- combine Heilbronn, Vaihingen Backnang and Stuttgart (maybe also Welzheim?) in the new Province Neckargau
- move Baden to Uffgau (there are two locations by that name by the way, one in Ortenau and one in Vienna)
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
pardon if this has alredy been asked, but what is that "lusatia" in the map, I'm not aware of any principality with that name, so what does it represent?
 
I think it's a debatable abstraction of how federal/confederal work. For instance, the Stadtholder of the Dutch Republic had power and jurisdiction over the provinces on certain issues, and that actually evolved into the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Landless IOs fit much better for non-territorialized authorities... Such as the HRE.
The Stadtholder taking power was later periods but during the earlier periods of the Dutch republic’s history, the Provinces were practically independent states with their own laws, governing bodies, leaders and internal politics and the Estates General only serving as a representative of the provinces.
So this wouldn’t really be represented correctly by a conventional nation that only has one government and one law, or an IO since the Estates General (Federal Government) had its own Military and Diplomacy and Agency separate from the Provinces, unless an IO can be playable which hasn’t been revealed yet.
This is also the case for Swiss Cantons and US states, who are their own semi independent states with separate laws, leaders, structures (Basically a Vassal) and their Federal Governments only acting as a United Front for them during earlier periods.

I believe adding such a mechanic where a “Federal Government” acts as a representative of the subject states would make a nice addition to the game, a fun diplomatic focused way of playing the game, and it doesn’t need to be an IO, just a Playable Tag that gets its power through their Subjects, the core mechanics already exist in EU4 like Subjects giving Cash, Manpower, Forcelimit, allow recruitment, ship building, buildings.
In theory, if you Disable the liberty desire of these States and increase their Contribution to Overlord, you could theoretically achieve this with already existing mechanics
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I'm from Berlin (like for real), and I want to give some quick feedback on Brandenburg (Wikipedia link here):
I am not sure on what the current layout is based on; maybe the most significant settlements in the area? It looks like you partly mixed that with the provinces (Ruppin is a province and location), so for me your approach is not very clear.

Nonetheless, I suggest some changes to the provinces based on this map:
  • Altmark split in two to have Almark west of the Elbe river and Prignitz east of it
  • Citizi, I have never ever heard of that. If it ever existed, it doesn't exist anymore. I suggest to rename it to Jerichow and to make it significantly smaller so that it's representing those lands in between the Elbe river and Havel river
For locations, there is this map which is based on counties (Landkreise) of the Kurmark (source is here)


According to this map, the historical counties are: Altmark, Prignitz, Ruppin, Uckermark, Havelland incl. Potsdam and Brandenburg, Glien and Löwenberg, Niederbarnim incl. Berlin, Oberbarnim, Lebus, Zauche, Luckenwalde, Teltow, Bees and Storkow. At least Ober- and Niederbarnim existed for a very long time as Barnim was divided into two in 1451 (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreis_Oberbarnim). According to Christopher Clark's map in chapter 1 The Hohenzollerns of Brandenburg: HEARTLAND (I don't have the page no.), it's Altmark, Prignitz, Kurmark, Uckermark, Mittelmark, Neumark (not posting the map for copyright reasons).

Again I am not sure whether the location names are based on the most significant town, or the historical district or something else, and I need to do more research to give more proper feedback.

References
Clark, Christopher M. Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600–1947. Penguin History. London: Penguin Books, 2007.

Proposed Changes for Brandenburg

The quoted post already a good post that addresses the current inconsistencies. The current division of the provinces is already relatively good (locations aside for now), but unfortunately, the geographical division of the provinces doesn't fit at all.

Below, I have listed all the regions that I would historically consider the provinces of Brandenburg. Everything else (Havelland, Teltow, etc.) I would allocate under these provinces as locations, particularly into the Mittelmark in this case.

Proposed Provinces:

  • Altmark
  • Prignitz
  • Ruppin
  • Uckermark
  • Mittelmark
  • Neumark

  1. Altmark​

  • Geographical Location: The Altmark lies west of the Elbe River, forming the western frontier of the Margraviate of Brandenburg.
  • Difference to current tinto map: The Altmark currently extends too far east beyond the Elbe, covering land that belongs to Prignitz. The Altmark must end at the Elbe and contain the currently displayed locations of Osterburg, Salzwedel, Stendal, Gardelegen. The Prignitz would begin east of the Elbe.
  • Historical Context: Known as the original heartland of Brandenburg, the Altmark was pivotal in the German eastward expansion (Ostsiedlung). It was a significant agricultural and trade region, with Stendal serving as the central hub.
  • Major Cities: Stendal, Salzwedel
  • Key Features: Rivers: The Elbe and its tributaries. Landscape: Mainly flat, with fertile soil that supports agriculture.
  1. Prignitz​

  • Geographical Location: Situated in the northwestern part of Brandenburg, the Prignitz is bordered by the Elbe River to the west.
  • Difference to current tinto map: Prignitz is currently not represented as a province at all. It should begin east of the Elbe (what is currently considered part of Altmark on the Tinto map) and must then encompass the two currently depicted locations of Havelberg and Wittstock.
  • Historical Context: Prignitz was a vital trade area with extensive waterways, linking it to major trade routes.
  • Major Cities: Perleberg, Wittenberge
  • Key Features: Rivers: Elbe and Stepenitz. Landscape: Characterized by rolling hills and extensive forests, with agricultural land interspersed.
  1. Ruppin​

  • Geographical Location: Located in the northwest, Ruppin is bounded by the Havel River and numerous lakes.
  • Difference to current tinto map: Ruppin should only contain the currently displayed location of Ruppin itself. Havelberg belongs to Prignitz and Potsdam and Brandenburg to the Mittelmark.
  • Historical Context: The County of Ruppin was a semi-autonomous region within Brandenburg, ruled by the Counts of Lindow-Ruppin.
  • Major Cities: Neuruppin, Gransee
  • Key Features: Lakes: Ruppiner See and other glacial lakes. Landscape: A mix of dense forests and open fields, ideal for both agriculture and defense.
  1. Uckermark​

  • Geographical Location: Situated in the northeastern part of Brandenburg, bordering Pomerania and Mecklenburg.
  • Difference to current tinto map: I think Uckermark is okayish right now.
  • Historical Context: The Uckermark was a contested region due to its strategic location. It played a crucial role in the power dynamics between Brandenburg and neighboring territories.
  • Major Cities: Prenzlau, Templin Key Features: Rivers: Ucker and Randow. Landscape: Features fertile plains, forests, and lakes, making it a prosperous agricultural area.
  1. Mittelmark​

  • Geographical Location: The central core of Brandenburg, including areas around Berlin and Potsdam.
  • Difference to current tinto map: The Mittelmark currently appears the most incorrect. Historically, it stretched from west (Altmark) to east up to the Oder, but it currently has more of a north-south extension so to display it more correctly it should include the currently displayed locations of: Brandenburg, Potsdam, Teltow, Berlin, Beeskow, Lebus, Freienwalde
  • Historical Context: As the political and economic heart of Brandenburg, the Mittelmark included vital landscapes such as Havelland, Teltow, Berlin etc. which were central to the region's development.
  • Major Cities: Berlin, Brandenburg an der Havel, Potsdam
  • Key Features: Rivers: Havel, Spree, and Nuthe. Landscape: Known for its varied topography, including fertile river valleys, rolling hills, and forests.
  1. Neumark​

  • Geographical Location: Positioned east of the Oder River, the Neumark represents Brandenburg's eastern expansion.
  • Difference to current tinto map: The Neumark has always extended east of the Oder, meaning it currently incorrectly includes areas west of the Oder. The following locations need to be removed and assigned to the Mittelmark: Freienwalde, Lebus.
  • Historical Context: In 1337, the Neumark was a developing frontier region that played a significant role in the German colonization efforts in Eastern Europe.
  • Major Cities: Küstrin (Kostrzyn), Soldin (Myślibórz)
  • Key Features: Rivers: Oder and Warta. Landscape: Characterized by flat plains and river valleys, promoting agriculture and settlement.


All changes in the Tinto Map outlined:
AD_4nXdPllG9Xh2IDX2PeKPAXXEVffuozCApCfzH0U2jkfDyNSsrdxiagvXG2NcYTkLTjLhMxTXvDUZ8xmBuZYLaTDSzkBUw69EMASTrfSzXo8OcDXwE2RWz3F0FAtlF3-wUYeMccLM0O8SrGFEGXoQ7DvrkhuE

Map Source Material:​

Unfortunately, most maps are from later centuries, but since the Margraviate of Brandenburg did not undergo substantial and sustained changes from the mid-13th century, Map 2 and 3 can still be used. Map 1 is a modern visualization (not a historical source) of what it might have looked like in 1320. This is provided for comparison only.

Map 1:

AD_4nXdUO5ghMhqoU2Yyg5sseZrvp4iCsVWAs7lOKR6PT3df38_ChgxICHDqwW4A8oHJu9SZPJhYdpDbbi9mwot5YlJSm6ABCvNEEfgoUbC9L0kLx6f86jKeKux1hfmr02tKa6_-AwzNsoPq02lgDQxa7GAbNt4



Map 2
AD_4nXdNntU0-tFhRmdwj8MAIRYMFSFZ_xkvNtCVmAYiRcePpzc99hU_cWH26afTsiJ2DQTAtfJnc9Ll57l3Zjyd6XhUnEMDKnnV0CT7CraS2urjsHFyj9hKkdh1REwGCpKdWB0uAJPRA3NE1leMioCaf14rutiv

ArtistFix W.
TitleDie Kur Brandenburg im 15. und 16. Jahrhundert.
DescriptionImage extracted from page 75 of Die Territorialgeschichte des brandenburgisch preussischen Staates, im Auschluss an zehn historische Karten übersichtlich dargestellt, Fix W. Original held and digitised by the British Library.
Note: The colours, contrast and appearance of these illustrations are unlikely to be true to life. They are derived from scanned images that have been enhanced for machine interpretation and have been altered from their originals.
Date1869
Accession numberBritish Library HMNTS 9385.eee.11.

Map 3
AD_4nXdnU5dAZcC1Aye4gPpoZmJ_BZ1FyGSKooTRJSirWcrHkW4CrI2HGI2ooo5EV_QpvhW6_DfF5ctbLOuh5i1ZOj-ZNsIEIBUD9rP-w4mJY89h2R51UyXtU9WsEG_58TuHe_B0ck0Nlgh2bsNgZ04eFcruMToK

Author: Nicolas Sanson, Paris
Title: Churfurstenthum und March Brandeburg 1657
Universitätsbibliothek Bern, Zentralbibliothek, Sammlung Ryhiner



E: This post by Failtier is even more detailed and accurate:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-maps-12-26th-of-july-2024-germany.1696699/page-22#post-29792821
 
Last edited:
  • 14Like
  • 2
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
Firstly love the map, but Pavia is ‘Zelland’ the way the cool kids reference Zeeland at Paradox Interactive or did you make a tipo?

As one of the advocates for the addition of Bentheim, I'm overjoyed by its inclusion. However, I disagree with the choice of marble as it’s resource. In a previous post, I argued that Bentheim should feature stone as its resource, specifically Bentheimer sandstone, also known as Bentheimer gold. This regional specialty was used in numerous buildings, such as the Martinitoren in Groningen, Bentheim castle and the palace of Amsterdam. Alternatively, sand could be considered since Bentheimer sandstone is essentially sand-based. While the current resource in PC is marble, the legacy of Bentheimer gold in regional architecture far outweighs that of marble; also I could not find any reference to bentheim marble.
 
I am very pleased that my hometown Mergentheim is represented. I wonder how it works that Mergentheim is owned by the Teutonic Order, whose Baltic Order State is not in the Empire, while Mergentheim is in the Empire and it even became the Order's capital after the creation of the Duchy of Prussia. Regarding the culture, the topography, the vegetation and the climate, I think the classifications are correct. For the raw materials, I would suggest using wine as well as for Tauberbischofsheim, as viticulture is very important in the area and the area is also characterized by its vineyards. For the province of Soltau in northern Germany, I would suggest salt as a raw material, as salt mining was very important in the Middle Ages and is even the origin of the name Soltau. "Solt" means salt and "au" means meadow. For Southern Bavarian I would suggest the name Alpine Bavarian, as it would be more consistent with Danube Bavarian and Upper Palatine, which are also called Middle Bavarian and Northern Bavarian, although I find the names Alpine Bavarian, Danube Bavarian and Upper Palatine better than the name after the directions.
I think the Horses are in reference to the yearly Pferdemarkt and because vine is already plentyful in Germany while horses are a rarity.
 
Related to culture:

If you really want to go for this granularity Brandenburgish should also be Markish. Angrian isn't a thing and should be devided between westphalian and eastphalian. Lower Saxon should be named Northern Low Saxon. The low german minority in eastern Frisia should be Northern Low Saxon instead of Westphalian. Saxon should be called Thuringian or split between Thuringian and Upper Saxon. Also Prussian should be split between Upper and Lower Prussian and Rhine Franconian between Hessian and Lower Palatinian (should be Kurpfälzisch in german but Electoral Palatinian sounds really bad to me). Upper Palatinian should be Northern Bavarian and Danube Bavarian Middle Bavarian. Rhine Alemannic should be called Lower Alemannic and also encompass the Lake Constance Alemannic region, as the latter is closer to Upper Rhine Alemannic than High Alemannic. And I would also advise to split Low Franconian between Flemish, Hollandic, Brabantish and Lower Rhenish (could be also called South Low Frankish).

But ideally I would advise to be a bit less granular. Merge Westphalian, Angrian, Eastphalian, Lower saxon and Holsatian into one Low Saxon culture. all the low german dialects east of the Elbe should be East Elbian stretching all the way to Prussia. Rename Saxon into Thuringian or Upper Saxon and let it include High Prussian. Maybe to reflect German Silesian better it should be called Lusatian-Silesian but I'm not sure about that name, while being more precise it is a bit clunky. Merge Rippuarian and Moselle Fraconian into Middle Franconian. Rhine Alemannic, High Alemannic and Swabian should be merged into Alemannic. Lastly Upper Palatinian, Danube Bavarian and South Bavarian should become Bavarian. In thise case Moravian should also be part of Bohemian and Silesian part of Polish.
 
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:
Hello there,

a bunch of things I've noticed in north-western Germany in the area of the Lower Rhine:

- Cologne is way too over-represented in the area around the Ruhr and is shown owning the historical city of Duisburg, which is simply inaccurate. And this may seem like a very miniscule detail which I however have to elaborate on.
Back in the medieval and all the way up to the early modern period, major trade routes existed throughout Germany that gave rise to various towns and even cities throughout what would later become said country - one such trade route for dyes and salt passed throughout the Ruhr area with its major cities of Dortmund and Essen, which are both represented, but also the major city of Duisburg at the confluence of the Rhine and Ruhr rivers which was well integrated into the medieval trade network.

canvas.png


The City was part of the Hanseatic League and was given free city status in the 12th century, a status that the city would keep until 1290 when it was not granted to Cologne, but to the then County of Cleves, which by 1290 had already grown to cover both sides of the Rhine and extend as far south-east as the Ruhr Valley.
- Cleves would not too soon after be elevated to the rank of Duchy as well, becoming the pre-eminent mercantile Duchy in the entire region and the main rival of Berg.

This should be represented in the game by potentially adding the city as another location which would be part of Cleves in 1337.
- If that's too much to ask for, then at the very least the (oversized) location of Rees should be given to Cleves so that they have control over the Rhine-Ruhr confluence like they did historically.

1722024035753.png
1722024253583.png


Another detail I noticed is that the County of Mark to the east of Berg is ruled by the "von Mark" Dynasty, but that is not the correct name. They are usually referenced as La Marck in English, or alternatively as von der Mark in German.
- They are important to point out because it would be these guy who'd eventually inherit Cleves, Jülich and (Upper) Guelders, forming the United Duchies in the process which, for a short time united most of what would become the modern state of North-Rhine-Westphalia outside of Münster and Cologne, even going as so far as to challenge the Emperor and his territories in the Low Countries.

1722025297837.png

(This map doesn't show Guelders as part of it which was under the rule of Charles V, though it did not stop the United Duchies from actively trying to take control over it in an act of defiance against the Emperor)
- On that note, a sort of formable for the region known as the "United Duchies (of Jülich-Cleves-Berg)" could make for some interesting flavour as well.

This entity dominated the region for about half a century before the War of the Jülich Succession caused it to get divided between Bavaria and Prussia, which is of great importance as upon the division, Cleves became the first Prussian possession in the Rhineland from which they would only continue to grow to become the dominant power within all of Germany; likewise, Jülich for a short while prior to the Napoleonic wars became the main seat of the Palatinate before that ended up getting inherited by the Bavarians.



These things may seem like nitpicks, but ultimately played a big role in the formation of the borders of the Netherlands, as well as in the rise of Prussia towards the its hegemonic position over the other German states.
 
  • 8Like
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
BOHEMIA feedback

Hello dear dev team, thank you for all your hard work on project Caesar. I am happy to finally make my contribution to my home region.
Overall the map looks very good, including the correct localization of Czech names and letters. That's a job well done!

A. Praha location population: (this is very important as it is the capital)

As someone mentioned previously, in your map Praha as a location has a very low population (22 600).
In reality Praha was one of the biggest medieval towns in Europe and even other regional towns in the population map have significantly more people (Brno 124 000, Písek 80 894).

According to the sources I found, the population at this time is estimated to have been between 40 and 60 thousand and that only includes the town itself within its boundaries, not counting the surrounding land which the location itself covers. The location population should therefore be even higher than 40-60 thousand, possibly 70-90 thousand, maybe more.

Praha should be one of the most populous locations in all of Bohemia and Moravia, not one of the lowest. It even became the capital of the Holy Roman Empire just two decades after the game start. And I can imagine that Bohemia would be weaker with such a low pop capital, which wasn't historically the case.


Sources:

I didn't manage to find any primary source available online, but several places quote history books.

1 - Article quoting a Czech historian


2 - I know it's Wikipedia, but they quote the Czech statistical office, claiming that the town of Prague had 60-65 thousand people in 1370s within its administrative boundaries.


B. I have a few suggestions for Bohemian locations:

1 - Add a new location Budějovice - The existing location called Budějovice is misplaced and does not make much sense geographically, see point 2. Founded in 1265, Budějovice was an important royal town founded by the Bohemian king Přemysl Otakar II. to project royal power in southern Bohemia.

2 - The existing Budějovice location should be renamed and split in two - Třeboň and Jindřichův Hradec (both founded before the start date) to match the location size of the rest of the kingdom

4 - I would suggest splitting Turnov in two - Český Dub and Turnov

5 - Hradec Králové is a strange geographical location, I would split it in two and the eastern part I suggest to be - Ústí nad Orlicí

6 - As another person pointed out, Tábor was founded in 1420 during the Hussite wars, so the location could possibly be renamed to Soběslav instead.

--> overall the location density could be increased to match the neighbouring regions as you yourself mentioned in the post. But these are some of my notable suggestions which I think should make it in.



Tinto Maps feedback.png



C. Province changes:

1. Jihočesko --> Jižní Čechy (or Budějovicko); (Jihočesko as a name has never been used and sounds strange)



If anyone else finds any more info, feel free to tag me and I will edit this comment so that we can put the feedback in one clear post.

Thank you very much to your time and please consider these changes.
 
Last edited:
  • 10Like
  • 4
  • 2
Reactions:
Where is Haarlem?
Why is Arnhem bordering Utrecht?
Why is there an Apeldoorn?
- apparently judged too small
- it isn't, Amersfoort lies in between (and Arnhem includes Ede)
- a question often asked. Why does Apeldoorn exist? Oh, you mean in the game? Was a very popular request in Tinto map of the low countries
 
The Electorate of Cologne should not control both sides of the Rhine river
View attachment 1168189
View attachment 1168190
Please make two locations out of the Köln location following the Rhine River and swap ownership between Berg and Cologne for a few locations (Bonn and part of Köln on the other side of the river)

View attachment 1168188View attachment 1168186View attachment 1168187View attachment 1168185

None of the borders are followed from my examples
As a follow-up to this one, because you can see it on the maps above, my post from the first map thread regarding Jülich touching the Rhine:
Regarding the location Mönchengladbach:


I think the red marked area shouldn't belong to Jülich.

The area was a mess, as it was a part of the HRE, with the central part of what is now Krefeld belonging to Moers and all of modern Krefeld's districts belonging to Köln (and some of them being given as a fief to Kleve by Köln). But no part of it belonged to Jülich and neither did Willich, Osterath, Kaarst and Meerbusch, the municipalities between Neuss and today's Krefeld, belong to Jülich. To the west of Krefeld there are Kempen and Tönisvorst, both towns belonging to Köln. See the following map showing the area in the 14th century:

I think adding the part to Neuss would be fine (and connecting Mönchengladbach to Jülich proper). (Or if you want to make a new location, important municipalities in the area would be Krefeld [Moers!], Linn, Uerdingen and Kempen [all three being the names of administrative districts of Köln in the area].

And a second note: On the political map C/Kleve is called Cleve and on the location map it is called Kleve. If Koblenz is Coblenz, then it should be Cleve on the location map.
Some additional points to consider:
  • While Krefeld became the most important city in the marked region starting in the 18th century, after it fell to Prussia after the death of William of Orange [the king] (Krefeld belonged to the house of Orange for about a century), it only became a city in 1373, while others like Kempen and Uerdingen already had city rights at the start of the game
  • I don't know any quarries of note in the Monichgladbach location. There are apparently clay deposits in the west, but stone isn't really something it is known for.
  • I reject the notion of Monichgladbach having any kind of culture.
View attachment 1168322
It´s called "Mönchengladbach"
Sorry, that's on me. In the first Tinto map talk I asked for consistency in the naming of locations. Using either modern names or old names. Coblenz Vs. Koblenz, Kleve vs. Cleve. At that point I also suggested Monichgladbach which I took from Mönchengladbach's webpage.

On that note:
  • On the maps the country is called Kleve, the location is called Cleve. Both should have the same first letter.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Could we get a rename of Gelre to Guelders? Since Guelders is the English name for it and Gelre is Dutch.
 
cool map a lot of fair and correct details. :)

----

For Brilon everything fits (its existence, lead, hills, woods, etc.) - but Hessian??? The HORROR :eek:
(Just lidding, I do not care to much about areas - rather that the border at Brilon looks weird.)

----

The city of colone itself:
- The population number might fit, but seems to small compared to its neighbors. :oops:
- There was a strong conflict between burghers and bishop. Officially the Cologne became a free imperial city more than 100 jears later, but inofficially the burghers had the bishop already thrown out. I am not sure how to model this: location as aubject, strong privileges for burghers, local modifier? o_O
- Cologne bought the territory of Arnsberg, because no heir there. Will there be models / events for this or similar cases? :cool:
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
A few inputs on the Valais area in south western Switzerland, so the locations of Brig, Saas Fee, Sion, Martigny and Monthey:
  1. Location names: Saas Fee doesn't make sense, as was (and is) a small village higher up in the mountains. Suitable names would be Visp, Leuk or Raron. I recommend also changing the name of Monthey to St-Maurice, as it was historically more important.
  2. Provinces: The 2 provinces of Bas Valais are very odd. Just make one province of Valais (French) or Wallis (German) with all 5 locations. There is also the possibility of changing the borders of Montreux a bit to get the location of Aigle and add it to Valais, as Aigle has been part of the same bishopric (first of Octodure, then of Sion) as almost all of Valais since way before game start and still is today.
  3. Areas: As one province, it makes sense to add Valais to the Romandy area. Alternatively you could split up Switzerland horizontally into the Alps and the Mittelland, so Valais would be part of the (Swiss) Alps.
  4. Culture: Since it is assumed that the language border was at the river Lonza at the time of game start, the location Saas Fee (or as above Visp, Leuk or Raron) should be predominantly High Alemannic (actually Highest Alemannic, but that would be too detailed) with a significant minority of Arpitan. Sion should also have a small High Alemannic minority.
  5. Raw Materials: No expert in this one. But I think that one location of wine would be very suitable, as a lot of it has been produced in all of Valais history and it is to this day the biggest wine region in Switzerland. It also would give Switzerland a wine location, which somehow is missing right now. It would also be fitting to have rye, for example in Monthey (or better St-Maurice), as it was the main nutrition in Valais and the only grain that grew well in that environment. But rye doesn't exist, so maybe use wheat instead or change wheat to grain to represent all types of cereals?
  6. Population: According to the Historical Dictionary of Switzerland, it is assumed that the same population density as before the Black Death was only reached in higher regions such as Valais at the beginning of the 19th century. In the censuses of 1798 and 1802, just over 60,000 inhabitants were counted for the canton of Valais on both occasions. The population should therefore be approximately doubled in order to be as close as possible to reality at the start of the game. I also think that the population in the Location of Monthey (or better St-Maurice) is extremely low and should be adjusted to be more in line with the other Locations.
One more thing about the populations: It's very strange that some places with very similar conditions to Valais have insanely high population. Chur has 140k population while being 1/3 bigger than Valais with its 30k right now. The Aosta valley has 100k, while being less than 2/3 of the size of Valais. How are those numbers calculated?
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
  • 1
  • 1Love
Reactions: