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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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I think it's a debatable abstraction of how federal/confederal work. For instance, the Stadtholder of the Dutch Republic had power and jurisdiction over the provinces on certain issues, and that actually evolved into the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Landless IOs fit much better for non-territorialized authorities... Such as the HRE.

One might say, the evolution into the Kingdom of Netherlands could one day become and interesting gameplay loop... I guess a mod modeling it will pop up sooner or later.
 
So I tried making a province and area map of Germany. I'll post it, but I'm not really happy with it.
While some provinces are no brainers, there are many that are questionable and sometimes you basically have to make something up, because the historical province (e.g. Oberbayern) is just way too big.
I'm certainly not 100% familiar with all the regions in Germany so there are probably better options for a lot of these names.
I've also opted to replace the modern Oberfranken and Mittelfranken with the contemporary Hohenzollern naming scheme, but I'm not sure if that's appropriate for generic provinces.
I think Niedersachsen, Brandenburg, Obersachsen and Franken are way to big (compared to French and Nederlandish areas, and compared to Holstein and Mecklenburg). There were proposals how to make them smaller here, Ostfalen and Lausitz can be added for example. I feel like 4 - 6 provinces for every area should be targeted

Some provinces are also a bit on the bigger side with 8 locations
 
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Made an account here just for this,
Also as I started writing this there are already 19 pages of comments so some of the things I put here may have already been said; and of course not an expert so I'll probably miss a lot of things with some areas.

SOME LOCATIONS
Saxony & Thuringia
Schweinitz (seems Annaburg was a more relevant settlement)
Hello Relinquere.
Schweinitz is the best choice for the time as it was the administrative center of the region. Annaburg was still too small and insignificant at the time. Alternatively, you could have chosen “Seyda”.
 
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Will there be an option to make all countries in the HRE the same color but with different shades, like France with their vassals?

Also, since there are some baltic pagans in Ostpreußen, shouldn't there be some slavic pagans in eastern Pomerania? Both regions have been conquered a similar time, around just a century. I don't think that's enough to completely annihilate a religion. Sadly, I have no sources, but maybe someone has.
 
I think Niedersachsen and Brandenburg are way to big (compared to French and Nederlandish areas, and compared to Holstein and Mecklenburg). There were proposals how to make them smaller here, Ostfalen and Lausitz can be added for example. I feel like 4 - 6 provinces for every area should be targeted

Some provinces are also a bit on the bigger side with 8 locations
From what they've posted so far it looks like areas are more based on historical regions rather than trying to get evenly distributed provinces. Niedersachsen, for example, is the same size in the areas that were posted and Pavía said that they are unhappy with them being based on modern states, not with their size.
I don't believe that the Westfalen-Engern-Ostfalen split was relevant anymore in Project Caesar's timeframe, but Lausitz could be added as an area for sure.
 
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View attachment 1168127
Why is the Krakow market "intruding" so much into Praha's?
(I am assuming that this shape is not considered OK, I am curious to understand what variables might cause this behaviour)

I think it is because Silesia recently (in 1337) changed their overlord from Polish king to Czech one. Maybe some of the Silesian counties have trade relations stronger to Krakow then Prague. It makes sense when Krakow is way closer then Prague. But Opava because Moravian origin should be maybe in Prague trade node.
 
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@Pavía I have some questions regarding vassals if you don't mind:

1. So Moravia is atm a proper vassal of Bohemia, ruled by the heir of Bohemia (Charles IV). In case Charles inherits Bohemia, will the two titles become PUs, or will Moravia (which will become a vassal of Bohemia that is also ruled by the same person) become Bohemia's dominion? Moravia being treated as a dominion of Bohemia would in fact make more sense historically;
2. If it does become a dominion rather than a PU or a vassal, is that a scripted special case for Bohemia-Moravia or is that how it works mechanically?
3. You have shown us, if I recall correctly, three types of vassals - vassals, appanages (as it was described, "a sort of vassal that may return to the ruler", in the French TM), and dominions (a lesser title subordinate to but separate from the main title ruled by the same person, such as Wales or Scania). Are there any more vassal types that you are yet to reveal?
4. What sort of vassalage title do colonial states get? Do they get a separate "colony" type, and more importantly, can you choose the type of vassalage your colonies get when you create them? Eg. if it is a proper feudal vassal, a dominion, or something else?
 
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From what they've posted so far it looks like areas are more based on historical regions rather than trying to get evenly distributed provinces. Niedersachsen, for example, is the same size in the areas that were posted and Pavía said that they are unhappy with them being based on modern states, not with their size.
I don't believe that the Westfalen-Engern-Ostfalen split was relevant anymore in Project Caesar's timeframe, but Lausitz could be added as an area for sure.
I think united Niedersachsen is even more irrelevant as it is way to modern.
1722078105518.png
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Here you can see a historical division of Niedersachsen, though in the other way around. This can also be a great suggestion for division

I would prefer either choice, but proposed by you is very modern, and based on kingdom of Hannover
 
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1722076963093.png


An attempt at Swabia. Please forgive me.

1: Neckarsulm, Teutonic Order
2: Heilbronn, independent
3: Löwenstein, independent under Habsburg cadet branch
4: Schwäbish Hall, independent
5: Limpurg, independent
6: Ellwangen, independent
7: Schwäbisch Gmünd, independent
8: Heidenheim, Württemberg
9: Ulm, independent
10: Urach, Württemberg
11: Teck, Württemberg
12: Stuttgart, Württemberg
13: Backnang?, Württemberg
14: Maulbronn, independent or Palatinate?
15: Tübingen, Württemberg
16: Calw, Württemberg
17: Freudenstadt?, Württemberg
18: Rottweil, independent
19: Hohenberg or Zollern, independent
20: Baar, independent as Fürstenberg
21: Durlach, Baden
22: Oettingen, independent

There is also the matter of spelling, as Johan has said that historical spellings are prefered. Württemberg could be Wirtenberg or Wirtemberg. Calw was often spelled Calb which is how the name is pronounced. Schwäbisch Hall and Schwäbisch Gmünd were typically refered to without the Schwäbisch part.
 
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I would prefer either choice, but proposed by you is very modern, and based on kingdom of Hannover
I basically just put anything in Niedersachsen that isn't Westfalen (as we understand it today), Obersachsen, Holstein or Mecklenburg, but I guess Westfalen could be extended to the north to be closer to the actual Reichskreis.
 
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I basically just put anything in Niedersachsen that isn't Westfalen (as we understand it today), Obersachsen, Holstein or Mecklenburg, but I guess Westfalen could be extended to the north to be closer to the actual Reichskreis.
I don't like the part "as we understand it today".

As a proposal for changes, area Leine can be added to Hessen.
 
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We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green).
Does that mean we can't have electoral republics like in eu4? or are they also considered prince-electors?

Also,

The German cultures are very linguistically related
Is this an ingame mechanic that has been spoken about?
 
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The inheritances are mechanical, we don't setup/script them.
This question is probably too soon, but will the new tag be reflected in the inheritance? Probably the main teg gets the first born (or what is the rule of the succession law), but the other heirs get new tegs, will they be some basis for names like CKII has, for locations, provinces of the area and how will be COAs generated?

I assume that there will be several options to prevent the inheritance from being split into several independent tags, the following basic options would be logical:

- the first is to send the redundant heirs to the priesthood,
- the second is that, for example, the heirs agree on co-management,
- the third is probably the easiest to remove them (dead, excommunicated, disinherited ect.) and
- the fourth is that you are already culturally conditioned to run the tag as a family or clan.