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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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By the way, most border changes within the HRE happend not because of wars but debts. Everyone was permanently strapped for cash and the main way of dealing with this was to lease, sell or pawn of territories. Would be cool if this was somehow represented in game.
 
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hellfirematt said:
Some ideas for the Rhineland:
View attachment 1168990

The biggest suggestion I have is to make sure no location crosses both sides of the Rhine. This means splitting apart the Köln and Coblenz locations.

Jülich:
- I recommend renaming Mönchengladbach to just Gladbach, which is what the city was called until the mid 19th Century. I also recommend splitting that and Neuss so they both run north-to-south, which matches the borders of Cologne and Jülich did during the period.
- I also recommend renaming Schleiden to Kall. Schleiden was a fief of Luxembourg. Kall belonged to Jülich and was the administrative centre in this region.

Cologne and Berg:
- As I mentioned above, I think you should separate the left and right banks of the current Köln location. The right bank I recommend be Porz, controlled by Berg.
- Bonn should be Colonian, not Bergish. GIving Porz to Berg as above means that Berg won't be a location short.

Arenberg:
- If the game does bookmarks into future start dates, you'll have emerging out of nowhere the state of Arenberg in 1803 in Recklinghausen and Meppen. The Arenberg duchy was a small collection of territories between Jülich and Trier. The family was well-connected during the period though the duchy istelf was of little importance. I think I made it fit in the above map as unnecessary but nice to have.

Trier:
- As mentioned above, I don't think Coblenz should be on both sides of the Rhine. I drew a suggestion of how it can fit entirely on the left bank without removing any Trevian locations whilst still roughly matching the archbishopric's adminstrative regions.

Wetterau:
- With Coblenz on the other side of the Rhine, I expanded both Montabaur (to extend from Altenwied to Montabaur) and Altenkirchen.There's probably enough room between these two locations to add Wied should you want to. There was no need to extend so far east any more, so I gave Hadamar to Diez, extending it northward.
- With the above adjustments, enough space was created to add the lower county of Katzenelnbogen. I wasn't sure what name to give it, I just went with Rheinfels since that was where a side line of the Hesse dynasty ruled over this location, but thinking about it now I believe it was on the other side of the Rhine. The Katzenelnbogens were a wealthy comital family which had also acquired Darmstadt as a fief of Würzburg in 1330, so it would have 2 locations in 1337. The family went extinct in 1479, and after a succession dispute between Nassau and Hesse finally passed to Hesse in 1557.

Marck:
I adjusted borders a bit to get closer to the shape the county had, though it's difficult to do so with the need to make the Dortmund location larger. I wonder if a Hagen location being added in southern Dortmund and northern Altena would get it closer in shape, but I was trying to avoid adding new locations.

Westphalia:
Again, just minor border change suggestions to get slightly closer to the shape the duchy had, though this time the existence of Lippstadt makes that difficult.
Click to expand...
Scheiden was owned by the Counts of Blankenheim who also owned Gerolstein and Manderscheid. They owned far more territory than the miniscule Arenbergs.

Katzenelnbogen was the seat of the Counts of Katzenelnbogen.

Siegburg (not Siegberg) was owned by the Counts of Heinsberg after they had inherited that land.

Bensberg was the traditional seat of the later Amt Bensberg / Porz.

I agree that Gladbach and Neuss have odd borders which don't really follow the historical borders. Jülich should just be contingous.
 
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Pentabyte said:
I agree with you on the part of not calling it Baden, but apart from administrative divisions, geographically this region can definitely not be considered to be swabia, as swabia only extends to the black forest but not across it (and most towns and population in nowadays baden are definitely on the other side of the black forest). So I think rhenish swabia is not a good fit. But I guess black forest (like you said), rheinebene or making it part of the oberrhein are probably the most suitable descriptions. I think the proposal in the following post is a really elegant solution on the province and region level:



Edit: I am aware that you spoke about non-geographical terms in your reply so I get where you are coming from. Geographical terms are just my personal preference lol
Click to expand...
This is only if you apply modern geographical terms. In the Middle Ages until the Napoleonic era, it was all called Swabia.


Schw%C3%A4bischer_Kreis_Karte_um_1750.jpg
 
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Palando said:
This is only if you apply modern geographical terms. In the Middle Ages until the Napoleonic era, it was all called Swabia.


Schw%C3%A4bischer_Kreis_Karte_um_1750.jpg
Click to expand...
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't "Circuli Suevici" the admistrative division of the Reichskreis rather than a geographical term?
Cool map by the way didn't know this existed

Edit: misquoted the map
 
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ArVass said:
This is fabulous, but I think that the Black Forest not being a honorary forest is big big heresy lol
Click to expand...
I think if the locations were drawn so there could be a clear distinction between the Upper Rhine Graben and the Black Forest, then one could be farmland while the other could be forest.
I know that later in the Early Modern era, there were large clearings in the Black Forest and there are historical documents were people lament how bare everything looked without any trees, but I don't know exactly what it looked like in 1337. By that time, the silver mining boom was on its last legs, so a lot of wood had been used for mines and smelting up to this point. Industries like charcoal makers or glass makers started to appear, which also used a lot of wood, so with all this use, the Black Forest probably looked more like managed woodland than the dense forest that we think of today.
When people in the time period used wood as fuel, for example to make charcoal, they would clear entire sections of forests, then move on to the next spot once all the trees were gone. So the landscape would have looked like a mix of forests and clearings.
I think it's a good idea to distinguish between this sort of settled woodland and mostly untouched forests that still existed in many parts of the world, but ultimately that's for the devs to decide.
ArVass said:
I also do think that there are places where you "unjustly" underinterpreted the forestation, like some spots in the mountains around Bohemia, eg. Gmünd and Zwettl etc.
Click to expand...
Possibly, but intensive use of forests for mining activities have to be taken into account as well. None of this is relevant today anymore since we have other types of fuel and forest are generally well protected, but it would have been very different in the game's time period, where the amount of wood used for fuel was immense.
 
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The culture of Slesvig is incorrect, it seems to be following the modern border but the truth is that its more south then that, i have a map of the culture in the area from 800 to 1100 the danish culture is about the same while the low Saxons would be in the light gray areas. Also for the provinces Sønderjylland and Selsvig is the same thing. So a beeter idea would be to change it to Nord and Syd Selsvig
Slesvig.jpg
 
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PatatjeFriet said:
I'd like to propose a change in the borders of Cologne, Trier and the Palatinate as from the maps I know these seem way too different.

This is the region during the Hohenstaufen:

View attachment 1168974

And this is in 1356, only 19 years after the start date:

View attachment 1168975

In both instances, before and after 1337, the borders of Cologne are very different from Ceasar's borders. Id prefer to see Ahrweiler changed to the County of Arenberg or Neuenhahr, instead of belonging to Cologne when its exclave was smaller. In general Id wish to get cleaner and more accurate borders for Cologne, for example around Kleve and its main part surrounding the city of Cologne.

Trier is too big and St. Wendel should be made into the County of Veldenz and Kaiserlautern should probably either also go to Veldenz or to the Palatinate. Montabaur should become the County of Wied.

View attachment 1168979
Click to expand...

aki-chan desu said:
According to Wiki:
Click to expand...

PatatjeFriet said:
Do you have the wiki page? If I search for the county I do not get this, are you sure this doesnt only count for the city? Even then it should be a vassal or directly ruled by Bohemia.
Click to expand...
In 1332, Louis the Bavarian mortgaged Kaiserslautern to Balduin of Trier who a year later started the 'Kaiserslautener Landfrieden'. This territorial expansion lead to conflicts with the Palatinate. The Palatinate got Kaiserslautern in 1356/7 from Charles IV (this is probably why it's owned by the Palatinate in your map).
 
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Palando said:
In 1332, Louis the Bavarian mortgaged Kaiserslautern to Balduin of Trier who a year later started the 'Kaiserslautener Landfrieden'. This territorial expansion lead to conflicts with the Palatinate. The Palatinate got Kaiserslautern in 1356/7 from Charles IV (this is probably why it's owned by the Palatinate in your map).
Click to expand...
Thank you, that explains why Trier owns it, do you have a source because I always enjoy reading about these things.

I still feel like it should then be a vassal as it was enfeoffened (atleast thats how I interpret morgaged)
 
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Some feedback on TRUE northern germany (SH+Hamburg):
It seems that the depiction is mostly based on the modern Kreise, which has some issues.

- the Lübeck location is too big in the southeast and the north, it actually includes the cities of Eutin and Ratzeburg at this moment and might even encroach on Plön.

- the Bishopric of Ratzeburg location should extend further west to actually include the city (which lies almost exactly in line with the west end of the Bay of Lübeck.

- Segeberg/Stormarn is a weird one. I guess Segeberg exists due to the recent partition of Schauenburg rule till 1308 but the split is all wrong and follows modern Kreis-borders. If you want Segeberg to exist the split should be way more horizontal. Segeberg should not Border Hamburg. Also in 1337 Segeberg belongs to the Holstein-Plön line of the Schauenburgs, not the Holstein-Rendburg line.

- Hamburg NEEDS to be split. The western part was ruled by the Schauenburgs as Holstein-Pinneberg and with the borders as shown no reasonable danish border can be created. (Which, considering that Altona was the aecond biggest danish city at times might be important). I would recommend splitting Pinneberg off and having an event change the capital to Altona if under danish rule at some point. A three way split would be too granular. If province density is an issue get rid of segeberg instead, the line of Holstein-Pinneberg ruled until 1640 and in parts till 1726 and is way more important that ecisted for only 35 years. Of course the Elbe would need a few more pixels to the south east to ensure that the city of Hamburg keeps its port.

- Steinburg is a 1 to 1 copy of the modern administrative Kreis. I cant't speak much of it's borders but the naming might be of interest. It can be named Steinburg or Itzehoe. During the timeframe borh are valid choices. Steinburg was the administratice centre in 1337 but Itzehoe for more of the timeframe of the game in total. Also Itzehoe is one of the oldest cities in Holstein and a more unique name that isn't found across Germany blocking other location names.

- what is Eutin meant to represent? The Bishopric of Lübeck? If yes it is a weird choice since all of the Bishopric was within the actual province of Lübeck. The territory is almost exactly the Kreis Oldenburg in Holstein from prussian times which was imposed afger prussian conquest with no historical reason outside of the timeframe of the game. The actual Kreis Eutin is completely within the location of Lübeck (and would actually include the Bishopric). I frankly have no idea what to do with that location. Either have it eat the northern part of Lübeck, including the city of Eutin, keep the name and let it be ruled by the Bishopric or give it to Holstein-Plön and rename it Oldenburg (which will likely create problems with Oldenburg in lower saxony)

Lastly for even the extended "north" of germany i want to HEAVILY advocate for lower german location names. This is not a case like the "middle english" topic that would be weird for modern english readers. High german is not a successor to low german. It is a centraly imposed language that as a concept only started after the timeframe of the game and wasn't used in rural germany until after the second world war. Most adults in northern germany had their grandparents or parents still speak lower german during their childhod. In rural SH specificially it was uncommon for people to be able to speak high german until after the second world war, leading to a concept called "Missingsch", where older people speak high german with lower german grammar (and a ton of lower german words) and when older people meet it is still common among some to hold full conversations in "op platt".

Therefore my recommendations for SH and Hamburg:
Hamburg - Hamborg
Lauenburg - Loonborg
Stormarn - Stormarn
Segeberg - Sebarg
Steinburg - Steenborg/Itzho
Heide - Heid
Rendsburg - Rendsborg
Eckernförde - Eckernföör
Ratueburg - Ratzborg
Lübeck - Lübeek
Kiel - Kiel
Plön - Plöön
Flensburg - Flensborg (same in danish)
Slesvig - Sleswig (current spelling is danish and fine)
 
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So I had a look at Cologne:

1722179648045.png


Montabaur is a rather huge province, so it'd be possible to squeeze in the County of Wied. Koblenz should also get some slight border corrections to make it more similar to the historical borders.

I would rename Ahrweiler to Neuenahr and give to to the County of Neuenahr. It owned basically all territory, whereas Cologne only had a small strip of land.

Virneburg could be carved out and made slightly bigger. Virneburg was owned by the Lords of Virneburg who were subjects of the Palatinate, so either it would be directly owned by it or a vassal.

Scheiden was owned by the Counts of Blankenheim who also owned Gerolstein and Manderscheid. I would rename it to Blankenheim, their capital, and make them independent. Obviously, Manderscheid and Gerolstein can't be carved out, because then Daun would vanish.

Bonn should be the capital of the Electorate of Cologne, while the city itself should become a free city.

Euskirchen could be carved out of Bonn and Bergheim and given to Jülich. Speaking of which, Jülich's capital should be Jülich. Bensberg could be carved out of Cologne and give to Berg.

The split between Gladbach and Neuss should follow the historical borders
1722179896560.png



Siegburg was owned by the Lords of Heinsberg since the later 13th century. They also owned the Löwenburg and in general the Siebengebirge.


Dortmund is a rather huge province for a free city, so I would carve out either Hagen or Bochum, though the latter was more important but it also depends on the exact borders.

I would either rename Rees to Duisburg and give it to Berg or do the split like I did. Duisburg as a former free city was far more important.
 
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Palando said:
So I had a look at Cologne:

View attachment 1169086

Montabaur is a rather huge province, so it'd be possible to squeeze in the County of Wied. Koblenz should also get some slight border corrections to make it more similar to the historical borders.

I would rename Ahrweiler to Neuenahr and give to to the County of Neuenahr. It owned basically all territory, whereas Cologne only had a small strip of land.

Virneburg could be carved out and made slightly bigger. Virneburg was owned by the Lords of Virneburg who were subjects of the Palatinate, so either it would be directly owned by it or a vassal.

Scheiden was owned by the Counts of Blankenheim who also owned Gerolstein and Manderscheid. I would rename it to Blankenheim, their capital, and make them independent. Obviously, Manderscheid and Gerolstein can't be carved out, because then Daun would vanish.

Bonn should be the capital of the Electorate of Cologne, while the city itself should become a free city.

Euskirchen could be carved out of Bonn and Bergheim and given to Jülich. Speaking of which, Jülich's capital should be Jülich. Bensberg could be carved out of Cologne and give to Berg.

The split between Gladbach and Neuss should follow the historical borders
View attachment 1169089


Siegburg was owned by the Lords of Heinsberg since the later 13th century. They also owned the Löwenburg and in general the Siebengebirge.


Dortmund is a rather huge province for a free city, so I would carve out either Hagen or Bochum, though the latter was more important but it also depends on the exact borders.

I would either rename Rees to Duisburg and give it to Berg or do the split like I did. Duisburg as a former free city was far more important.
Click to expand...
Do you intend to draw the entire Holy Roman Empire/Germany?
 
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I don't know where you got the info that the von Nassau dynasty is leading the county of Berg in 1337, but I assure you this was not the case.
From 1218 to 1348 it would be the von Limburg dynasty that ruled over the county after which the von Jülich dynasty took over for a bit. I'd also like to see some further focus on the local intermarry/war politics of the lower rhine(-meuse) region or lower Lotharingia where local counts and dukes try to retake the lower lotharingian territory and further more the entire Lotharingia region like burgundy tried by the late 1400s
 

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Palando said:
So I had a look at Cologne:

View attachment 1169086

Montabaur is a rather huge province, so it'd be possible to squeeze in the County of Wied. Koblenz should also get some slight border corrections to make it more similar to the historical borders.

I would rename Ahrweiler to Neuenahr and give to to the County of Neuenahr. It owned basically all territory, whereas Cologne only had a small strip of land.

Virneburg could be carved out and made slightly bigger. Virneburg was owned by the Lords of Virneburg who were subjects of the Palatinate, so either it would be directly owned by it or a vassal.

Scheiden was owned by the Counts of Blankenheim who also owned Gerolstein and Manderscheid. I would rename it to Blankenheim, their capital, and make them independent. Obviously, Manderscheid and Gerolstein can't be carved out, because then Daun would vanish.

Bonn should be the capital of the Electorate of Cologne, while the city itself should become a free city.

Euskirchen could be carved out of Bonn and Bergheim and given to Jülich. Speaking of which, Jülich's capital should be Jülich. Bensberg could be carved out of Cologne and give to Berg.

The split between Gladbach and Neuss should follow the historical borders
View attachment 1169089


Siegburg was owned by the Lords of Heinsberg since the later 13th century. They also owned the Löwenburg and in general the Siebengebirge.


Dortmund is a rather huge province for a free city, so I would carve out either Hagen or Bochum, though the latter was more important but it also depends on the exact borders.

I would either rename Rees to Duisburg and give it to Berg or do the split like I did. Duisburg as a former free city was far more important.
Click to expand...
I disagree on the Koblenz location. Even on the map you attach to the post it is seen that it didn't possess so much territory on the other side of the river.

Screenshot_20240728_174600_Samsung Internet.jpg

Koblenz city territory should be added to location called Mayen, where the other side can be named for example Eherenbreitstein. It was the biggest city on that river side.
Trier-Sponheim_1648.png



Edit: Also I am a great supporter of the Rhine river borders. And Katzenelnbogen bothers me. It is sad that it is a historic border of the county. But I wish we all can close our eyes for that one...
 
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