Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback

[tinholt]

Plateaus have been added! Hype.

 

[High Speed Flying Gladius]

No changes to the population amount and distribution? Only cultures?

 

[ShadowCammy]

Memel should be a square

Historical source: Europa Universalis IV 2013-2015 edition, Paradox Interactive

 

[Pollllo]

Interesting, but I think you should consider adding Estonian pagans, as the Suomenusko.

Also will their be any interesting events with Jews in the region? Could you invite them into Poland?

Jews are already present, but I agree there should be an event, especially with Casimir the Great in charge who issued a privilege for the jews in 1341, which caused more of them to come over.

 

[The Ciceronian]

It's better to abilitate the shapes for those who desire certain historical borders, than having random shaped blobs in the middle of Poland, it isn't detrimental to the Poland players and it benefits everyone else, I do not see any drawbacks for having there the borders avaliable for those who want them.

These are not "random shaped blobs" but historical voivodeships, lands and poviats of the Polish state and its people throughout almost all the game timeframe. Your concern about historical borders is a deception as you are very ignorant about anything other then the german/prussian-centric point of view of the region's rich and tragic history. Those "random shaped blobs" are the historical borders and having them is essential to the accurate portrayal of the region's uniqueness and struggles. By removing them and god forbid shape them after the first/second/third partition you destroy the region as a whole, making it into just a prize to slowly conquer.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

@Pavía Hey great post. I can definitely see a lot of feedback provided in the original TM. I do realize a lot of changes in central Poland, and I can't but wonder why did you erased some of the Eastern German historical borders when, in the former map, it was perfectly possible to replicate them, except for the location of Opava.

Original map:
View attachment 1182573

New map:
View attachment 1182574

My main concern are the locations of the eastern border of Posen and southern border of Western Prussia. You could replicate those borders in the former map, now it's not possible.

View attachment 1182578

Now. I understand that a lot of Poles get angrily triggered when they see the slightliest mention of German former territories east of the Oder (everytime I highlighted the subject I was bombarded with the 'disagree' reaction by Polish users; I understand it, it's perfectly fine) but locations' shape is immutable during playtime and it's important to achieve the maximum flexibility that this unprecedented granularity can offer, so everyone's happy; and I do know that many Poles wont ever never want to replicate the Eastern German empire's borders, but a LOT of other people will want to do so, and it would be extremely frustrating if the location shapes do not allow it.

It's better to abilitate the shapes for those who desire certain historical borders, than having random shaped blobs in the middle of Poland, it isn't detrimental to the Poland players and it benefits everyone else, I do not see any drawbacks for having there the borders avaliable for those who want them.

For example, the location of Olivença; some Portuguese players will keep it, some Spanish players will conquer it, the rest wont give a fuck. This is the ideal scenario, because it gives to everyone the liberty to shape the map in the way they want.

It's a game, it's intended to everyone's enjoyment, and each person will have their personal preferences in each gameplay, that hopefully will be able to replicate in the game. Having the locations shaped in a way that it's possible to recreate some historical borders there in the game map doesn't mean that tomorrow it will be that way in real life.

I want to back this and I’m not sure why you’re getting disagrees. These are period borders which don’t conflict with any other period external borders. There’s no good reason why they shouldn’t be possible to recreate in the game.

Edit: people disagreeing, give me an actual reason why these period external borders shouldn’t be possible.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

No changes to the population amount and distribution? Only cultures?

Population: Unfortunately, we still have to fix the pops of the region, as we have some pending fallout yet to address, so they aren't really in a good state at this moment; it's the only thing pending to do, and we hope to share them with you as soon as possible!

 

[Pavía]

What about the full name of Lithuania, why did you change it to Grand duchy? Didn't they adopt it after the comversion to Christianity?

This is interesting, we took some time researching it. The title of 'Grand Duke' comes from the Russian equivalent 'Grand Prince', as the Rus states influenced quite a lot the early Lithuanian state. Gediminas was in negotiations with the Pope to convert to Catholic Christianity, and in those letters, he entitled himself as 'King', as a translation of 'Grand Prince', which is something that the Pope was not very happy about (as he was the only one that could proclaim kings in Catholicism). He wouldn't convert, finally, so the title was not recognized; later on, with the Jagiellon dynasty, they would use the title of 'Grand Duke' more consistently, specifically after Jogaila/Wladislaw II, as that put him on a close enough level to Queen Jadwiga, and they didn't need anymore to bribe the Pope to get the royal title.

Therefore, we decided to add this custom title for Lithuania from the start; it's not 100% accurate, but we think that it's the best way to portray a fluid reality.

 

[Pavía]

Are Kiev and Smolesnk also still vassals of Lithuania or only tributaries of the horde?

Just tributaries of the Horde, currently.

 

[Pavía]

Will the Terra Mariana exist as an IO?

Currently, the Livonian Order is the overlord of all the Livonian countries.

 

[bokorthedust]

Wow.

 

[Pavía]

View attachment 1182575

Change my name for @Aldaron , and it would be 100% accurate.

 

[ArVass]

What a wonderful day!

 

[Atromb]

Greetings, from Latgola.

Probably, but also, calling western Latvians Latgalians would be incorrect since their ancestors are Curonians and Semigalians, and they have little to do with people from eastern Latvia, where Latgalians live and have a distinct culture and language until nowadays.

Right, that's precisely my point, Latvian culture is a result of different baltic cultures mixing with each other, at the moment its basically a combination of Latgalians, Semigalians and Selonians while excluding curonians and livs that to my knowledge also partook in the creation of Latvian identity.

 

[Pavía]

Before I go into details:
- should I understand that all Mazovian duchies are Polish vassals?
- duchy of Płock doesn't have a Piast ruler?
- what's the status of Inowrocław?
- does it still begin with an active war between Poland and TO (and Bohemia and Lithuania for some reason)?
- what's the naming convention of Silesian locations? It seems like mess.

1. Yes.
2. He has a Piast ruler, but I've just found that he's disconnected from the rest of the dynasty, lol.
3. In a personal union with Poland, under Kazimierz III.
4. Yes, although this is not 100% settled (we're reworking the starting status and content for this war).
5. Feel free to make suggestions.

 

[ibvfteh]

Dynasties (this map is now, as we hadn't shown yet the characters by Tinto Maps #4):
View attachment 1182511
Yes, there are several rulers belonging to the Piast and Gediminid dynasties. And there are also some Premyslid still around, ruling over Opava and Raciborz.

After the extinction of the Rurikid dynasty in Galicia–Volhynia in 1323, Volhynia passed into the control of the Lithuanian prince Liubartas, while the boyars took control over Galicia. They invited the Polish prince Yuri II Boleslav, a grandson of Yuri I, to assume the Galician throne.

Liubartas was the youngest son of Gediminas. So the dynasty should be Gediminid

 

[Maxipuchi]

This is paradox's own fault. They always stated that they consider cultures as languages but they'd made a shit load of cultures for France for some reason despite it having like 2/3 languages there. So for consistency it is better to have split Polish cultures as it would be more consistent and include apart from language, identity. Or they could just really go only with languages.

They never said they consider cultures to be languages.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía I spy with my little eye a new location Zakarpattia, does this mean your team also started work in parallel on the Carpathian region?

Not yet, but soon, I hope.

 

[matfer13]

@Pavía regarding the full dynamic name of Lithuania wouldn't it be more historical if it changed depending the religion they choose?
Catholic=Grand duchy(historical option)
Romuva=Kingdom(either from the start or they start as a duchy and through a decision where they remain pagan declare themselves kings)
Orthodox=Grand Principality(to put themselves above the other rus principalities by claiming themselves as the heirs of Kievan Rus)

 

[bokorthedust]

Change my name for @Aldaron , and it would be 100% accurate.

Your wish is my command.