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Pavía

Content Design Lead PDX Tinto
Paradox Staff
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Jan 3, 2006
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Hello, map lovers! This might be a week full of joy for you, as we will have two Tinto Maps (as we also had last week!). Today, we will share our review of the maps of Poland, Ruthenia, and the Baltic, incorporating your feedback and suggestions.

As a foreword, this review has taken us more time than the previous ones, as it has been massive in comparison, plus it has fallen into summer time and the vacations. After reading and processing your feedback, we considered that there were several ways in which we could improve these regions, so we decided to devote some more time to get the degree of quality that we considered appropriate. This isn't something that's going to happen regularly; please be aware that each region is unique and challenging on its own, and in some cases, they might need more rework, and in others, less.

Without further ado, here is the list of changes, and the maps:

ADDITIONS

Added the following:
  • Locations (194 + 24 Lakes + 1 Wasteland)
    • Baltic Area
      • Aizkraukle
      • Dundaga
      • Durbe
      • Gulbene
      • Mākoņkalns
      • Padise
      • Pietālava
      • Saarde
      • Salaspils
      • Saldus
      • St. Martin
      • Straupe
      • Suure-Jaani
      • Toolse
      • Tukums
      • Vasknarva
      • Viļaka
      • Võnnu
    • Black Ruthenia Area
      • Bershty
      • Bol'shie Krugovichi
      • Buinovichi
      • Chernyany
      • Dobrush
      • Dzyatlava
      • Gródek
      • Hlusk
      • Kalinkavichy
      • Kapyl
      • Lakhva
      • Lelchytsy
      • Luchin
      • Lyubcha
      • Masty
      • Nyasvizh
      • Porazava
      • Rudobelka
      • Starobin
      • Tereshkovichy
      • Turets
      • Volosovichy
      • Vowpa
      • Zdzitov
      • Zhytkavichy
    • Central Poland Area
      • Brodnica
      • Kowal
      • Orłów
      • Tuszyn
      • Uniejów
    • Greater Poland Area
      • Buk
      • Czaplinek
      • Czarnków
      • Człopa
      • Koło
      • Ląd
      • Nakło nad Notecią
      • Ostrów Wielkopolski
    • Lesser Poland Area
      • Biecz
      • Czchów
      • Kunów
      • Lelów
      • Pilzno
      • Proszowice
      • Urzędów
      • Wiślica
      • Żarnów
    • Lithuania Area
      • Astrina
      • Dokshytsy
      • Drysvyaty
      • Giedraičiai
      • Halshany
      • Kernavé
      • Maleišiai
      • Medininkai (in Vilna)
      • Onuškis
      • Shchuchyn
      • Svir
      • Upyté
      • Veisiejai
    • Mazovia Area
      • Biała Rawska
      • Gostynin
      • Kolno
      • Łomża
      • Różan
      • Sokolów
      • Tarczyn
      • Tykocin
    • Podolia Area
      • Bakota
      • Sokilets
      • Teplyk
      • Zavalye
    • Polesia Area
      • Chernyany
      • Dabuchyn
      • Davyd-Haradok
      • Hlynne
      • Malaryta
      • Motal
      • Nobel
      • Włodawa
    • Pomerania Area
      • Goleniów
      • Kołobrzeg
    • Prussia Area
      • Barten
      • Biały Bór
      • Dzierzgoń
      • Elbląg
      • Frombork
      • Gerdauen
      • Gniew
      • Labiau
      • Nowe
      • Windenburg
    • Red Ruthenia Area
      • Bolekhiv
      • Jarosław
      • Khorostkiv
      • Piskorowice
      • Sniatyn
      • Stryi
      • Turka
      • Tysmenytsia
      • Zvenyhorod
    • Samogitia Area
      • Papilė
      • Skuodas
    • Silesia Area
      • Bielsko
      • Bolesławiec
      • Dzierżoniów
      • Głubczyce
      • Góra
      • Hlučín
      • Kamienna Góra
      • Kluczbork
      • Milicz
      • Namysłów
      • Niemcza
      • Niemodlin
      • Nysa
      • Olesno
      • Prudnik
      • Środa Śląska
      • Strzelce Opolskie
      • Syców
      • Szprotawa
      • Toszek
      • Złotoryja
    • Ukraine Area
      • Belaya Soroka
      • Berdychiv
      • Bilokorovychi
      • Chortolisy (Pulyny)
      • Khoiniki
      • Kholmyech
      • Kopyshche
      • Korostyshiv
      • Lebedyn
      • Rozkishna
      • Smila
      • Stodolichi
      • Viry
      • Zdvizhen
    • Volhynia Area
      • Iziaslav
      • Kamin
      • Liuboml
      • Mel'nytsya
      • Peremyl
      • Peresopnytsya
      • Stepan
      • Turiisk
      • Tykhomel'
    • White Ruthenia Area
      • Asvieja
      • Bobr
      • Bocheikovo
      • Chavusy
      • Dzisna
      • Ilya
      • Jeziaryšča
      • Kastsyukovichy
      • Koidanova
      • Kopys
      • Krasnoe
      • Lahoysk
      • Lukolm
      • Lyubashany
      • Mikulino
      • Nekloch'
      • Novy Bykhaw
      • Rakaŭ
      • Rasony
      • Shumyachi
      • Svislach
      • Tyatseryn
      • Ulla
      • Ushachy
      • Velizh
      • Vydreya
      • Vydritsa
      • Zabor'e
  • Lakes
    • Alibey Lagoon
    • Berezan Liman
    • Curonian Lagoon
    • Dniester Liman
    • Kadzhibey Liman
    • Kuialnyk Liman
    • Laek Śniardwy
    • Lake Kahul
    • Lake Katlabukh
    • Lake Kitai
    • Lake Lubāns
    • Lake Mamry
    • Lake Narrach
    • Lake Rāzna
    • Lake Sasyk-Syvash
    • Lake Võrts
    • Lake Yalpuh
    • Łebsko Lake
    • Mius Liman
    • Molochnyi Liman
    • Sasyk Lagoon
    • Syvash Lagoon
    • Tylihul Liman
    • Vistula Lagoon
  • Wastelands
    • Crimean Mountains
  • Countries
    • Brzeg
    • Chernihiv
    • Drutsk
    • Głogów
    • Halych
    • Minsk
    • Mstislavl
    • Namysłów
    • Niemodlin
    • Novogrudok
    • Nysa
    • Opava
    • Pinsk
    • Prudnik
    • Ścinawa
    • Siewierz
    • Slutsk
    • Strzelce
    • Świdnica
    • Turov
    • Wrocław
    • Ziębica
  • Characters
    • opv_mikolaj_i_premyslid
    • opv_mikolaj_ii_premyslid
    • opv_anna_raciborz
    • opv_jan_i_premyslid
    • swd_bolko_II_small
    • swd_agnes_habsburg
    • sci_jan_scinawski
    • sci_margaret_scinawa
    • zie_bolko_II_ziebice
    • zie_bonne_savoie
    • stz_albert_strzelce
    • stz_agnes_hardeg
    • nmd_boleslaw_elder
    • nmd_euphemia_wroclaw
    • nys_nanker
    • plk_boleslaw_iii_piast
    • plk_waclaw_piast
    • plk_elzbieta_gediminds
  • Cultures
    • Curonian
    • Greater Polish
    • Halychian
    • Lesser Polish
    • Mazovian
    • Polasian
    • Polatskian
    • Smolenskian
    • Sudovian
    • Volhynian
  • Dynamic Names
    • Added lots of German Dynamic Names.
    • Added some Dynamic Names in many other Languages
    • Renamed all modern Czech, Estonian, Latvian, and Polish locations to their national languages.
CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:
  • Locations:
    • Będzin to Siewierz
    • Brok to Nur
    • Bruntál to Frývaldov
    • Bialystok to Suraż
    • Holovanivsk to Savran
    • Horodyshche to Korsun
    • Ivatsevichy to Vyada
    • Jonova to Punia
    • Kalynivka to Bozhsky
    • Karthaus to Mirachowo
    • Kelmė to Kražiai
    • Khmelnytskyi to Mezhybozhe
    • Końskie to Przedbórz
    • Kozienice to Stężyca
    • Kutno to Gąbin
    • Łochów to Liw
    • Losice to Mielnik
    • Lubań to Rothenburg
    • Mankivka to Torgovytsia
    • Miechów to Książ Wielki
    • Monki to Drohiczyn
    • Nova Ushytsia to Ushytsia
    • Opole Lubelskie to Kazimierz (Dolny)
    • Ostropil to Liubar
    • Otwokc to Warsawa
    • Pajęczno to Brzeźnica
    • Pakruojis to Linkava
    • Pishchanka to Karabul
    • Plunge to Rietavas
    • Przysucha to Iłża
    • Pułtusk to Zakroczym
    • Radomyshl to Mychesk
    • Radviliškis to Tendžiogala
    • Rybnik to Pszczyna
    • Šakiai to Panemunė
    • Šalčininkai to Eišiškės
    • Słupca to Pyzdry
    • Talachyn to Drutsk
    • Telšiai to Medininkai
    • Tetiiv to Tsybuliv
    • Tomashpil to Dragushov
    • Tomaszów Mazowiecki to Zgierz
    • Valozhyn to Kreva
    • Vyshhorod to Dymer
    • Wyszków to Kamieniec
    • Ząbkowice Śląskie to Ziębice
    • Zakopane to Nowy Targ
    • Zarasai to Ežerėnai
    • Zduńska Wola to Szadek
    • Zurumin to Szreńsk
  • Cultures
    • Western Baltic to Pruthenian
Countries
  • Removed Regenwalde
  • Reworked the location ownership and subject relationships of the Silesian countries
Raw Goods
  • Changed several Raw Goods as suggested
Terrain and Vegetation
  • Total Review
Locations
  • Redrew several Locations
Provinces
  • Reorganized several Provinces
  • Renamed several Province Names
Minorities
  • Added minorities

Countries:
Countries.png

There are some noticeable changes in the country setup. First, we have deeply reworked the Silesian tags, not only with your feedback but also with the help of some of our fellow Polish devs. Second, we've divided Galicia-Volhynia into two separate principalities, which are in a personal union under the same ruler, Yuri II; these two countries, plus the Principality of Kyiv, are now tributaries of the Golden Horde, and part of the Tatar Yoke IO. Third, we've adjusted the southern and eastern borders of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Finally, the internal borders of the Livonian Order have also been adjusted.

Dynasties (this map is now, as we hadn't shown yet the characters by Tinto Maps #4):
Dynasties.png

Yes, there are several rulers belonging to the Piast and Gediminid dynasties. And there are also some Premyslid still around, ruling over Opava and Raciborz.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Locations! We considered that some more location density could be used, and from it comes the additions.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

You might notice that provinces are more historical now, following the powiaty and voivodeships of the nations depicted.

Areas:
Areas.png


Terrain:
Topography.png

Vegetation.png

There have been some changes to the topography of the region, with more wetlands across it, and some hills and plateaus added on the Polish part of the Carpathian mountains.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Some meaningful changes regarding the cultural setup of the region. We've decided to be a bit more consistent with the regions to the west, and we have split the Polish and Ruthenian cultures into their regional variants. We know that there will be a lot of questions regarding how this will work in the game, but we may ask for some patience about it, as we've got some changes planned regarding how it currently works, and we are aiming to show it in a Tinto Talks before the end of the year (and I can't say any more about this yet, sorry!). We've also added the Curonian and Sudovian cultures, and renamed the Western Baltic one to Pruthenian, adding some more cultural granularity.

Religion:
Religion.png

Not many changes regarding the religious setup of the region, as we've distributed them a bit differently in some places.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

We've added a lot of suggestions from your feedback for the raw materials of the region, making it way more complex economic-wise.

Markets.png

Three main markets, as the last time: Riga, Kraków, and Kyiv. And some staunch bugs regarding location connection to their markets that refuse to disappear, as well.


Population: Unfortunately, we still have to fix the pops of the region, as we have some pending fallout yet to address, so they aren't really in a good state at this moment; it's the only thing pending to do, and we hope to share them with you as soon as possible!

And that's for today! The next Tinto Maps to be reviewed is Anatolia, with no expected date yet; we're skipping Great Britain for now, as @SaintDaveUK will be on parental leave for some more weeks. Apart from that, on Friday we will be having a new Tinto Maps, the one for Arabia. Cheers!
 
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Did you lower the population inhabitating the "Grosse Wildnis", aka East of Prussia? What tags does each Polish culture have? Every culture has a TAG country in place. Are they releasables, formables or the already existing Polish duchies? Overall I don't see a reason for multiple Polish cultures, other than that would make Poland a singular cultural state compared to the others. What made you do it?
1. Yet to be reviewed, as mentioned.
2. The main culture in the locations they own. So Plock, Rawa, and Czersk are Mazovian; Leczyca, Sieradz, and Poland are Lesser Polish; Inowroclaw, Greater Polish; and the Silesian ones, well, Silesian.
3. We considered some feedback (the divide between Poland and Silesian was a bit artificial if no other regional cultures were considered), and also the design in other neighboring regions. They all would be part of the Polish culture group, though.
 
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1. I assume Riga Is city and Riga Lettoniæ the archbishopric, right?
2. What culture is the purple minority in Slovakia? Carpathian Germans? And the orange-brown stripes in lesser polish?
3. I see two Silesian counties that are independent: it's correct?
1. Yes.
2. Purple = Carpathian Germans, orange = Lower Franconian; BTW, the green inside Greater Polish is Walloon, the yellowish inside Mazovian is Westphalian, and the light green inside Lesser Polish is Rhine Alemannic.
3. Yes.
 
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What about the full name of Lithuania, why did you change it to Grand duchy? Didn't they adopt it after the comversion to Christianity?
This is interesting, we took some time researching it. The title of 'Grand Duke' comes from the Russian equivalent 'Grand Prince', as the Rus states influenced quite a lot the early Lithuanian state. Gediminas was in negotiations with the Pope to convert to Catholic Christianity, and in those letters, he entitled himself as 'King', as a translation of 'Grand Prince', which is something that the Pope was not very happy about (as he was the only one that could proclaim kings in Catholicism). He wouldn't convert, finally, so the title was not recognized; later on, with the Jagiellon dynasty, they would use the title of 'Grand Duke' more consistently, specifically after Jogaila/Wladislaw II, as that put him on a close enough level to Queen Jadwiga, and they didn't need anymore to bribe the Pope to get the royal title.

Therefore, we decided to add this custom title for Lithuania from the start; it's not 100% accurate, but we think that it's the best way to portray a fluid reality.
 
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Are Kiev and Smolesnk also still vassals of Lithuania or only tributaries of the horde?
Just tributaries of the Horde, currently.
 
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Before I go into details:
- should I understand that all Mazovian duchies are Polish vassals?
- duchy of Płock doesn't have a Piast ruler?
- what's the status of Inowrocław?
- does it still begin with an active war between Poland and TO (and Bohemia and Lithuania for some reason)?
- what's the naming convention of Silesian locations? It seems like mess.
1. Yes.
2. He has a Piast ruler, but I've just found that he's disconnected from the rest of the dynasty, lol.
3. In a personal union with Poland, under Kazimierz III.
4. Yes, although this is not 100% settled (we're reworking the starting status and content for this war).
5. Feel free to make suggestions.
 
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@Pavía regarding the full dynamic name of Lithuania wouldn't it be more historical if it changed depending the religion they choose?
Catholic=Grand duchy(historical option)
Romuva=Kingdom(either from the start or they start as a duchy and through a decision where they remain pagan declare themselves kings)
Orthodox=Grand Principality(to put themselves above the other rus principalities by claiming themselves as the heirs of Kievan Rus)
There's some content regarding that...
 
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So Galicia and Volhynia are treated as Principalities when separate, but as a Kingdom when together. Is there any such special flavour given to the ruler of the Galicia-Volhynia (/Kingdom of Ruthenia, a title granted by the Pope) personal union IO?
Ruthenia is a formable kingdom, and there will be flavour for it.
 
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I sincerely hope @Aldaron didn't get an aneurysm reading 21 more pages of comments and bits of extra feedback. XD
Almost got one with the Poland Tinto Map but I am still alive. Thanks :p
 
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Phew, good to know you survived that ordeal ;)

I guess you guys will let us know if certain changes have been made after going over the last bits of feedback? It's looking amazing thus far, kudos to you and your team.
@Pavía is the man for that. I am only a miner.
Which thread/region is problematic? It will be my goal to annihilate this region playing as Poland, when game will be released ;)
There has been quite more to chew than expected in all the region from West Poland to the Dnieper river, however, looking back all the effort, sweat and tears have been worth.
 
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But that still doesn't explain why "Riga Lettoniae". There is no historic basis for it what so ever. It was not an Latvian nor Latgallian country nor wasn't Archbishopric thinking himself as archbishop of Letts or Lettonia. Before it was Riga Archbishopric, it was known as Bishopric of Livonia and Bishopric of Uxküll. I would be way more understanding if then devs would have used "Riga Livoniae" or "Riga Uxküll" instead. You could also use "Riga Kokenhusen" as it's name because Kokenhusen was used as one of the main residents of the Riga Archbishop. "Riga Lettoniae" is simply nonsense.

Anyways, thanks for sharing the post from devs. I hadn't seen that reasoning before.
It is very easy, imagine that we do this the way it was originally:

City of Riga TAG gets named Riga. It somehow becomes a monarchy. It becomes the Duchy of Riga.

We name the Archbishopric of Riga also called Riga. It becomes a monarchy. It is named now Duchy of Riga.

Now, how do you distinguish both? Think of this, specially in a MP situation, where speed of reaction is important.

The solution we are using is far from ideal, but at least has some consistency and is the best we could find considering what issues we wanted to avoid.
 
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Historically you are 100% correct. But as far as I understand, dialects do not have historical purpose or mechanics in the game, they are only a 'technical' thing to solve proper naming issues and character names, that in most cases are linked to modern-day languages.
All these names are linked to the dialect of the culture, not the language.

In case of Minsk or Ivan there would not be any issues, but with all three dialects you can have all three variations of location and character names, like Chornobyl - Charnobyl - Chernobyl depending on the primary culture of the location owner or Dmytro - Zmicier - Dmitriy in case of a character. Where it would be necessary.

Actually absolutely the same way they have done the post-viking peoples: all share the Scandinavian language, but the respective locations will be in Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic depending on the owner. Even though this is also purely modern-day division:
View attachment 1216543

The same is with the Czech/Slovak dialects etc.

That's why I'm sure we should have two languages instead of one: Ruthenian and Russian instead of East Slavic. Btw, I also like the adjective Ruthene :)
The XIV century was definitely around the time when those languages started to emerge, but noone would know the exact decade.
And Ruthene(ian) language should have two dialecs for dynamic and character naming puposes - Northern (Belarusian) and Southern (Ukrainian).
If we were to explore this, exactly which cultures would have Ruthenian language and which would have Russian? Particularly where do Smolenskian, Severian, Polatskian lie on the spectrum?
 
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This is a draft of just splitting East Slavic into 3 dialects. Smolenskian being Ruthenian makes Ukrainian look crazy big, would it be better as Russian or Belarusian?

1731961933876.png
 
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