Tinto Talks #28 - 4th of September 2024

[ArVass]

I propose you make the time and winter severity it takes for inland seas, narrows, and lakes to freeze over different. For example, lakes (still freshwater, so they start freezing at 0°C, which is a rather normal winter condition) have an easier time to freeze over than seas (-2-4°C water temperature required, and they also usually have more turbulent currents), so for example lakes could freeze in normal winters too and seas would take severe winters to freeze.

 

[ArVass]

This is a really awesome feature and I think it will affect gameplay more than a lot of people realize.. So cool to see..
Question though: How do you calculate the severity or how likely severe winters are in a givwn location.. Both western Russia and Hungary are classified as continental climate in the game but I think most people would assume Russia having more severe winters on a regular basis than Hungary.. How do you account for these differences??
Also, will there be certain culture groups that have traits to either reduce or negate winter effects, like reduced attrition or reduced food penalty??

All climates in this classification (based roughly on Köppen climatic zones) represent a range; in the game, the TT implies that winter spreads from the arctic regions, so continental regions closer to the Arctic locations for example would get more and harsher winters than those that are far away and border mediterranean or subtropical regions for example

 

[Banny_beach]

Johan, good afternoon, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about game mechanics, and maybe my questions will give you interesting thoughts.

First of all, I wanted to ask about the Cabinet of Ministers. Do you plan to add character traits to ministers, or only points of their "professional suitability"? In Tinto Talks No. 16, the screenshot shows that the ruler has 3 character traits, but the ministers do not have them. It seems to me that adding the character traits of a minister will make interaction with the cabinet more interesting, and the choice of its members will depend not only on their attributes and the type of minister, but also on his character traits. For example, if the prime minister has a "culture lover" trait, then he will passively increase expenses and increase culture points, and will also sometimes cause events, for example, "buying art objects", where there will be a chance to buy both real art and fake, and lose money, or for example if the connetable of France has a trait "bad in logistics", then the French army will have a reduced maximum supply of provisions, and there will be negative events, like hunger, and so on, there will be huge opportunities if the ministers have also 3 traits as the ruler.

The second sentence concerns fortresses. In Tinto Tays No. 6, you have already talked about the effectiveness of control, which varies from many factors. I am 100% sure that fortresses will also give control, but what if we expand interaction with fortresses. What if the garrisons of the fortresses are not abstract numbers or real pops, but a controlled and planned tool. For example, fortresses of different levels will have different maximum capacity of people and provisions, the more people you or AI decided to place there in the fortress, the more provisions will they will be need on. At the same time, if there are not enough people, then control will reduce, and the fortress will be more vulnerable to siege and assaults by the enemy army. This will significantly deepen the mechanics of capturing enemy lands. Now the army, conquering enemy fortresses, will have to replenish the garrison of fortresses from the current army, and if there would be not enough warriors, then the inhabitants of the recently conquered or occupied province will be able to expel the invaders and regain control of the settlement, or open the gate and steal supplies during the siege. This mechanic way show us real stories, for example, when Henry 5 was able to gather only 7,000 people for the Battle of Agincourt, because most of the forces were in the garrisons of the fortresses. This will make the capture of new provinces more thoughtful and more costly for the Middle Ages, and the later in time, the easier it will be, so that there would not be such a thing when, as in EU4, you could completely occupy some large states with several thousand people.

 

[Banny_beach]

About Ministers, i remember Empire Total War Ministers, when i always chosed less capable, but had more positive traits, ah, nostalgia(

 

[wingren013]

Will monsoons work similarily?

What about deserts in the summer?

Will armies in the steppe slow down during the mud season?

 

[Thorum]

time to play as Novgorod and get monopoly on fur

Good luck with that once the colonisers reach Canada

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Good luck with that once the colonisers reach Canada

its ok i have like 200 years or so before the historical colonisation of canada

 

[wkscrombie]

not really

What about monsoons?

 

[wkscrombie]

Welcome everyone to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we talk about the top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into the most hated of all seasons, Winter. Luckily for us, we don’t have to live with it for the entire year…


Climate and Winter
So what impacts whether a location has winter or not? Well, primarily it depends on the climate, but also on the time of the year and the level of winter currently nearby. Of course, when there is winter it is different for the northern and southern hemispheres. Every day each location does its calculations for when it should be changing its winter level.

There are three levels of winter. Technically it is four, but “no winter” is not really winter is it. And during the course of a season, a location could experience all types of winter. We have mild, normal and severe winters.

What is common for all levels of winter is that they affect attrition for your armies, so winters will always kill off some of your soldiers.

Pops living in climates that regularly experience winters have a higher demand for fur.

Food in Winter
Food production is severely reduced when winter comes, while pops still eat normally. A mild winter is a reduction of 25%, while severe winters basically reduce food production to 0. So unless there is a lot of food stored in the province, a severe winter may cause starvation in your locations.

Constructions
One other drawback of winter is that normal and severe winters will impact constructions, and with impact, we are talking about stalling them completely. This affects everything from constructing a building to building a ship. It makes the gameplay experience in a country like Sweden or Norway a bit more difficult, as you have to plan around the fact that you lose several months of the year at times.

View attachment 1183438
Placeholder icons for locking, but useful tooltips..

Freezing Seas
Narrows, Inland Seas and Lakes have the possibility of freezing over during winter. This can happen when a seazone has had severe winter for over a week, and will then last until winter is no longer severe in that location.

A frozen seazone can be traversed by armies and this allows greater military control over the lands it reaches; however, it will cause navies to get stuck until it thaws. Be careful when the weather changes, it can thaw with catastrophic consequences if an army is on the ice. Navies can also not enter any seazone that has frozen over.

View attachment 1183437
When Storebælt and Lillebælt freezes, you don’t need navies to reach København…


Mountains
You already know that warfare during winter is a bit more risky, but Project Caesar adds another element to it. Any location with the topography of “Mountain” will be blocked for army movement during normal and severe winters. This can help create natural borders, and some interesting strategic gameplay.


View attachment 1183436

Tooltips are always helpful..

Sadly there will not be a Tinto Talks next week as we have a holiday that day, but after that we will be back and talk more about roads, development, prosperity and more..

I LOVE THIS.

 

[Alex5765763]

In Russia (and probably some other similar places) winter was the season when it was easiest to move on land as rivers and swamps froze and you could use sleds.

Summer was also good since you could travel by rivers, which together with portages covered pretty much the whole country. Spring and autumn were the worst due to mud making roads unusable and the thin/breaking ice making it impossible to either sail or walk on ice.

Not sure how (and whether) this can be incorporated in the game mechanics, just saying that the winter effects need not be uniformly negative

 

[Banny_beach]

Sure, but large parts of Russia has the same climate as Hungary in the game(continental).. If climate is the only thing in the game which impacts winter, then the game won't be able to differentiate between the two areas, even though there is a definite difference in the real world..

it should be average temperature in all provinces to simulate agricultural efficiency and weather changes

 

[yangzilata]

This is amazing!

I've been wishing for frozen sea zones since I first started playing strategy games. Many games have ignored or overlooked this feature, even though it's crucial for winter warfare. Adding it now will add amazing strategic depth, especially in northern regions like Scandinavia. It makes perfect sense logically and fundamentally to include this, as harsh winters would realistically impact naval movements and army traversals. This level of detail truly transforms good strategy games into great ones.

Moreover, this will make the Antarctic coastline much more dynamic, making exploration of the southern oceans far more interesting. Whether it's traversing over them or engaging in battles, it adds a whole new level of challenge. If there are southern pole expeditions, they probably will be more challenging and lifelike, rather than just simple exploration missions. It could even introduce rescue missions for explorers who don’t return on time from the harsh South Pole conditions. Just an idea!

For the northern seas, this adds a level of realism that helps players connect better with the game. As the line between reality and fantasy gets thinner, this feature will make the experience more engaging. In my opinion, realism enhances immersion, and this addition will draw players in even more.

Lastly, I hope the visuals will reflect this change. Seeing freezing snow particles, shimmering effects, and maybe even cloudy or stormy weather would be fantastic. Imperator did a great job with weather visuals, which are lacking in Victoria 3. I’d love to see even better weather effects like sandstorms, sea storms, or volcanic eruptions in Tinto. A vibrant and lively map always makes the game more attractive and immersive.

 

[yangzilata]

In Russia (and probably some other similar places) winter was the season when it was easiest to move on land as rivers and swamps froze and you could use sleds.

Summer was also good since you could travel by rivers, which together with portages covered pretty much the whole country. Spring and autumn were the worst due to mud making roads unusable and the thin/breaking ice making it impossible to either sail or walk on ice.

Not sure how (and whether) this can be incorporated in the game mechanics, just saying that the winter effects need not be uniformly negative

I hope the game could also think about making winter conditions more varied. For example, in places like Russia, winter could actually make travel easier because rivers and swamps freeze over, allowing for sleds. Spring and autumn, on the other hand, were tough due to muddy roads and unstable ice.

Maybe the game could add something like this, where frozen seas or icy conditions could have different effects depending on the season, just like how mud affects travel. It would be a cool way to add more strategy and realism.

 

[TheDungen]

so you need a siesta?

you can work during night and in shade... you can't build stuff if the ground is frozen solid and your materials gets snowed and iced in.

Working in darkness is a lot more difficult (remember the reigons where this is an issue don't have the long bright summers nights of Sweden) than you think and the benefit of shade is also limited.
You need to province light when working at night, shade if you use that, and in either case more water than during cooler times of the year.

I think it's a missed oppostunity not to not emulate other weather effects like heat, dry periods, monsoon rains and so on. In reality you also have the el nino cycles which affect the climate of the entire world.

 

[Chieron]

Wouldn't it be more realistic, if the end of severe winter just starts another counter, until we revert back to "not transversable" ? This period might be just one or two days, though (keep the mechanic alive, just less punishing in case there is a single normal winter day for some reason). It's not like ice thaws instantly.
For lakes, this is even more obvious, a frozen lake usually has no access to a warm water reservoir like the sea, so it takes longer to thaw (and normally doesn't take as long to freeze either).

To expand on this, one could implement something like the following:

• each seazone / lake that can freeze over gets a maximum ice thickness (say 20-30, with higher numbers on fresh water bodies) and a current ice thickness
• if the current ice thickness is above 7, the ice can be crossed by armies
  • an army standing on ice when the thickness drops below 7 could be lost
  • maybe cannons will need even thicker ice to safely cross (higher attrition before that level)
• the higher the current ice thickness, the more effect it has on navies (e.g. minimal attrition and movement speed), blocking any movement at thickness 7
• for each day in severe winter, the ice thickness increases by 1
• if the winter is normal, it decreases by 1, mild is a decreases by 2, no winter a decrease by 4

All these numbers could be tweaked by location.

The system described in the TT corresponds to:

• maximum ice thickness is 7 everywhere that can freeze
• normal/mild/no winter days instantly set thickness to 0, freeing navies and killing armies without warning
• navies are just stuck on 7 and do not get increasingly harsh effects before

The actual ice thickness value would not be known to the player. With the maximum being higher than 7, there would be some margin of error allowed.

 

[Metz]

Are there safeguards in the game to avoid several locations ending up empty or is this game opting for the “anything goes” approach in terms of consequences for bad planning/bad luck? Could England for example end up desolate if a player was really careless with wars and food production?

 

[yangzilata]

To expand on this, one could implement something like the following:

• each seazone / lake that can freeze over gets a maximum ice thickness (say 20-30, with higher numbers on fresh water bodies) and a current ice thickness
• if the current ice thickness is above 7, the ice can be crossed by armies
  • an army standing on ice when the thickness drops below 7 could be lost
  • maybe cannons will need even thicker ice to safely cross (higher attrition before that level)
• the higher the current ice thickness, the more effect it has on navies (e.g. minimal attrition and movement speed), blocking any movement at thickness 7
• for each day in severe winter, the ice thickness increases by 1
• if the winter is normal, it decreases by 1, mild is a decreases by 2, no winter a decrease by 4

All these numbers could be tweaked by location.

The system described in the TT corresponds to:

• maximum ice thickness is 7 everywhere that can freeze
• normal/mild/no winter days instantly set thickness to 0, freeing navies and killing armies without warning
• navies are just stuck on 7 and do not get increasingly harsh effects before

The actual ice thickness value would not be known to the player. With the maximum being higher than 7, there would be some margin of error allowed.

It’s a great way to add depth and realism to the game. The idea of having different ice thickness levels that affect both armies and navies is brilliant. It really makes winter conditions feel more dynamic and strategic. I’d love to see how this could be implemented—it could make dealing with ice and winter much more interesting and challenging!

 

[honkajoki]

To expand on this, one could implement something like the following:

I'll repeat what I've said before in this thread. Ice is not only about thickness, it's entirely possible to have conditions where the lake or sea is traversable neither with foot or ships (unless machine powered and with ice resistant hull). Happens most springs, sometimes also in other seasons. Hovercrafts are usable but not in the game period, game period solution would be a boat with skis but too niche to be modeled in the game.

 

[Farfour]

Can we get monsoons as well, maybe even the rando hurricane?

Will we be able to inflict ecological armageddon on our enemies?

 

[Pirat6662001]

To expand on this, one could implement something like the following:

• each seazone / lake that can freeze over gets a maximum ice thickness (say 20-30, with higher numbers on fresh water bodies) and a current ice thickness
• if the current ice thickness is above 7, the ice can be crossed by armies
  • an army standing on ice when the thickness drops below 7 could be lost
  • maybe cannons will need even thicker ice to safely cross (higher attrition before that level)
• the higher the current ice thickness, the more effect it has on navies (e.g. minimal attrition and movement speed), blocking any movement at thickness 7
• for each day in severe winter, the ice thickness increases by 1
• if the winter is normal, it decreases by 1, mild is a decreases by 2, no winter a decrease by 4

All these numbers could be tweaked by location.

The system described in the TT corresponds to:

• maximum ice thickness is 7 everywhere that can freeze
• normal/mild/no winter days instantly set thickness to 0, freeing navies and killing armies without warning
• navies are just stuck on 7 and do not get increasingly harsh effects before

The actual ice thickness value would not be known to the player. With the maximum being higher than 7, there would be some margin of error allowed.

I agree in principle, but this has the same issue as the current system - why is normal winter somehow reducing ice? It is still significantly below 0. Ice might not be growing, but it definitely wouldnt be reducing.