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Tinto Talks #28 - 4th of September 2024

Welcome everyone to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we talk about the top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into the most hated of all seasons, Winter. Luckily for us, we don’t have to live with it for the entire year…


Climate and Winter
So what impacts whether a location has winter or not? Well, primarily it depends on the climate, but also on the time of the year and the level of winter currently nearby. Of course, when there is winter it is different for the northern and southern hemispheres. Every day each location does its calculations for when it should be changing its winter level.

There are three levels of winter. Technically it is four, but “no winter” is not really winter is it. And during the course of a season, a location could experience all types of winter. We have mild, normal and severe winters.

What is common for all levels of winter is that they affect attrition for your armies, so winters will always kill off some of your soldiers.

Pops living in climates that regularly experience winters have a higher demand for fur.

Food in Winter
Food production is severely reduced when winter comes, while pops still eat normally. A mild winter is a reduction of 25%, while severe winters basically reduce food production to 0. So unless there is a lot of food stored in the province, a severe winter may cause starvation in your locations.

Constructions
One other drawback of winter is that normal and severe winters will impact constructions, and with impact, we are talking about stalling them completely. This affects everything from constructing a building to building a ship. It makes the gameplay experience in a country like Sweden or Norway a bit more difficult, as you have to plan around the fact that you lose several months of the year at times.

stalled.png

Placeholder icons for locking, but useful tooltips..


Freezing Seas
Narrows, Inland Seas and Lakes have the possibility of freezing over during winter. This can happen when a seazone has had severe winter for over a week, and will then last until winter is no longer severe in that location.

A frozen seazone can be traversed by armies and this allows greater military control over the lands it reaches; however, it will cause navies to get stuck until it thaws. Be careful when the weather changes, it can thaw with catastrophic consequences if an army is on the ice. Navies can also not enter any seazone that has frozen over.

frozen_over.png

When Storebælt and Lillebælt freezes, you don’t need navies to reach København…


Mountains
You already know that warfare during winter is a bit more risky, but Project Caesar adds another element to it. Any location with the topography of “Mountain” will be blocked for army movement during normal and severe winters. This can help create natural borders, and some interesting strategic gameplay.


winter_level.png


Tooltips are always helpful..

Sadly there will not be a Tinto Talks next week as we have a holiday that day, but after that we will be back and talk more about roads, development, prosperity and more..
 
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I agree in principle, but this has the same issue as the current system - why is normal winter somehow reducing ice? It is still significantly below 0. Ice might not be growing, but it definitely wouldnt be reducing.
Simple gameplay reasons. The ice should not be too stable. And ice on sea zones needs colder temperatures as well to overcome the heat reservoir of the sea itself. Normal winter being equal to no change in ice thickness might lead to far too stable ice sheets. Imagine a region that has 10 days of severe winter and then 100 days normal winter, the ice would realistically melt or become impassible simply due to breaking into small pieces. Maybe -0.5 per day would be better, this calls for testing and balancing. Btw, we would need a definition of "normal" here. I would consider 0-5 degrees still rather normal.
 
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Freezing seas... Sounds awesome, ngl!

Can't wait to forget about my army in the middle of one these frozen seas and then go look for it only to find out they all drowned... XDD
 
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Simple gameplay reasons. The ice should not be too stable. And ice on sea zones needs colder temperatures as well to overcome the heat reservoir of the sea itself. Normal winter being equal to no change in ice thickness might lead to far too stable ice sheets. Imagine a region that has 10 days of severe winter and then 100 days normal winter, the ice would realistically melt or become impassible simply due to breaking into small pieces. Maybe -0.5 per day would be better, this calls for testing and balancing. Btw, we would need a definition of "normal" here. I would consider 0-5 degrees still rather normal.
This was my solution i posted earlier: (Also no way 0-5 degrees is normal, thats very much mild even by my California standards)


1. It would be good to establish temperature ranges for the 3 types of winter for more detailed/scientific feedback. My proposal :

Mild Winter : 8 to -2 Celsius during the day
Normal WInter: -2 to -12 Celsius during the day
Severe Winter: anything below -12

2. Effects on water of those temperatures:

Seas and anything with salt water should only freeze during Severe winters and thaw even during Normal Winter

Lakes should freeze during Severe winter, but stay frozen through Normal Winter as ice wouldnt get thinner during negative temperatures. Thaws during Mild WInter (If possible lakes can be split into Major and Minor ones, with Minor ones freezing during Normal winter)

Rivers should lose defensive advantage during Severe Winter as they become easily passable (potentially Normal also), shown by Mongols

Rivers should gain a significant defensive advantage during MIld Winter after Normal/Severe (AKA Spring) due to thin ice or due to ice moving. Crossing would be effectively impossible


3. Effects on Military - thawing should go in stages because it is possible to cross on foot for much longer than with artillery.

Cavalry (Heavy) should have a minor malus on ice (See Battle of Ice for reference for what happens to Knights on Ice)

Artillery should have a bonus to attack value due to breaking of ice with shot

There should be stage of Thaw where all the artillery and horses drown but infantry can still survive. All Cavalry and Artillery regiments to be converted into Militia Infantry
 
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This was my solution i posted earlier: (Also no way 0-5 degrees is normal, thats very much mild even by my California standards)
Note: I live on the southern Baltic coast. Quite high latitude (54°N), but also rather maritime.
Average winter (dec-mar) temperatures are about freezing (an that also was the case before climate change). 5° is not too cold, but it is "normal". Lakes usually freeze over for a few weeks in January/February if the temperatures consistently stay below zero for weeks. The lowest temperatures for a given year will be at around -15° to -20° usually. So, I consider -10 to +5 as perfectly normal.
I've also lived in Luleå (norther Baltic, close to the Artic circle) for a year. It was a mild winter for the location (just got down to -20°C occasionally). Of course, the harbor froze over, allowing safe passage to the islands for tens of kilometers, but of course not allowing crossing over to Finland. NB: the Gulf of Bothnia is nearly freshwater, more of a huge lake analogue.
For more continental areas, the "normal" winter will look differently, but those do not have sea zones to freeze, either. We'd need the actual numbers for this that would be used for the modelling. IIRC, in EU4 most of Scandinavia will be at "severe winter" for 3 months straight. That would just freeze over the entire Baltic all the time, something that does not happen.

My decision on slow thawing on normal winter days was made for gameplay reasons. We do not want the sea zones to freeze over all the time, this was not the most common thing. Increasing the threshold for passability could also help, though (considering that sea ice would form slower).
 
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Nice. love these tinto talks. Unrelated but posting here as I got a bit late to the party but added some feedback to the Scandinavian section. Based on my local knowledge and background as a geographer with extra courses in Norwegian medieval history. Page 41, hope that it will be reviewed.
 
Well, that's why they had animals as well - it's not all the food, and I believe winter was time to slaughter the livestock kept purely for food. That sounds like food production to me, even if we don't need to get so granular as to track how many pigs Farmer Smythe has in Oxford. (Although there are some societies and religions that encourage vegetarianism, I can't say for certain but I suspect they would prefer a bit of meat to famine, on the whole.)
I do not see a problem to add a livestock quantity variable to a province. In 1816, after eruption of Tambora, there was a year (couple of them actually) without summer. Wildfires and wars also ravage the land. I would like to see living and breathing economy. EU4 mana principle with independent modifiers is boring.
 
Least favourite season? What? Belive me once you experience in 37 to 40 C weeks of mediterranean summer with sun rays being laser beams for most of the day you really wish for the winter.
 
I'm just gonna throw my two cents in, unless there is a more dedicated drought mechanic, harsh summers should also be represented- a heat wave or other such severe summer heat can be a fairly devastating event, killing crops and making many labors outright impossible, and I don't see why it couldn't be handled in the same manner as winters are
 
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Are there going to be any generic climate trends? Around the start time of the game, the world was still coming off the medieval warm period, and then moved into the little ice age. This shift in climate was one of the reasons the vikings abandoned Greenkand, as it was no longer quite as viable for agriculture. I think it would be pretty cool if such effects where incorporated into the game.
 
Will AI finally experience naval attrition just like the player ?

Having modded in a « graphical » sea freezing in EU4 Typus Orbis Terrarum, I always felt lacking that I could not mod naval attrition to winter seas, since the code was absent and the AI was basically just ignoring it
 
What about
we have some plans for storms yes.
Roaring forties and raging fifties here I come !

Speaking of that, are there future plans to expand in natural events such as the Krakatoa, Antigua Guatemala landslide, Yellow River flooding ? Not only as « one time events » but rather as some provinces getting increased catastrophe frequency to represent the difficulty in developing these lands (Antigua was rebuilt several times until the capital was moved)