Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[Pavía]

Will there be a decision for a Zoroastrian country to Refound Ctesiphon kinda like how you can rebuild the Palace in CK3? Or is it too early and a question for the flavour tinto talks in 2025?

Too early.

 

[AstroMorgan]

Any specific reason it is called Mazandaran and not Tabaristan or Shomal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabaristan

 

[matfer13]

Are tributaries included into this? When was Trebizond part of the Ilkhanate?

 

[za3tarani]

Has anyone on the team watched Rosencreutz's video 'EU5: Development, Divergence, and Simulation'? It compares EU4, Eu5, and the book 'Guns Germs and Steel'. It's ideas around the New World are interesting. Here is the link:

seen it, interesting indeed... not the right thread though. maybe open new thread

 

[bokorthedust]

Yes, yes, very nice, but what color will Fars have when it inevitably appears?

 

[AstroMorgan]

Shouldn’t the population of Iran be higher relative to Arabia? In the modern day Iran has close to 90 million people while Saudi Arabia has only 36 million.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Does this mean the Great Lakes will be getting a similar treatment? I’d thought that only bodies of water connected to the world ocean (and not by rivers) would be represented with naval mechanics, but this sounds like the Caspian Sea
is at least one exception.

 

[AstroMorgan]

The localization of Iraq-i Al-Arabi should be closer to Aragh/Araq according to its Perso-Arabic spelling عراق instead of Iraq

 

[za3tarani]

1. Yes
2. No
3. Nogai

for nr 2: is teh culture named syriac instead? if so, what is the reason?

 

[Ahmadmltft]

Shouldn’t the population of Iran be higher relative to Arabia? In the modern day Iran has close to 90 million people while Saudi Arabia has only 36 million.

The Mongols slaughtered the major population centers in Khorasan.Although there wasn't really any massacres in western Persia so it is a bit underpopulated in the current setup.

 

[za3tarani]

yes, saw it a few days ago

what is your opinion?

 

[Cuke]

1) There's a location by Tuapse called Severskaya.
I propose to rename it or delete it because Severskaya was founded in 1864, beyond the game's timeframe.

Северская — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

edit: maybe call it Ubinskaya, which is factually incorrect but does refer to the local river Ubin (compare with Abinskaya nearby).

2) rename Khadyzhensk (russian settlement) to Khadyzhi (sp, earlier circassian settlement of the same name, basically).
3) rename Belorechensk (founded in 1862) to Shitkhala or smth.

Белореченск — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

4) rename Labinsk (founded in 1841) to Chatiun (sp)

Лабинск — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

5) rename or delete Kurganinsk (founded in 1853)
6) rename or delete Uspenskoye (founded in 1864). It's a riverside settlement, so allegedly it had circassian population, therefore it could have had a circassian name which I cannot find in wiki. I propose merging it with Grigoropolis.
7) rename Novopavlovsk if possible. Novopavlovsk is a XIXc settlement on the site of Pavlovskoye. It wasn't "new pavlovsk" within the game's timeframe.

 

[Cephei80]

you are late

 

[za3tarani]

Culture and religion, yes.

is it a christian sect or independent religion?

 

[AstroMorgan]

Xuzestan/khuzestan and Lurestan should be split into 2 different areas, Khuzestan is Arab majority and Lurestan Lur majority (Ethnically Iranian) and the areas/peoples have separate histories

 

[karasis65]

I already wrote on anatolian map but since they are here, i still think dynasty name for ayyubids needs to change to Ayyubi or Eyubi

 

[za3tarani]

Shouldn’t the population of Iran be higher relative to Arabia? In the modern day Iran has close to 90 million people while Saudi Arabia has only 36 million.

arabia includes all of arabian peninsula. yemen today is 34 million.

 

[Gurtannon]

Pls consider adding corridors instead of connecting locations with super slim parts like in Merv

 

[Flower_Marlin]

This is a meaty Tinto Map but I'm glad another IO has been revealed for the Ilkhanate, so really excited about that. As for Sindh being majority Mahayana - should we save any discussions on that for next week's dev diary? Super eager for the Indian tinto maps post.

 

[SuperLexxe]

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Copied this over from the Ilkhanate thread:

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Here are some of the maps and their explanations posted below. I have a whole dump of snippets from the listed sources, from which the narrative is formed. However trying to organize them into a coherent group would be difficult. Hence I've decided to just drop them all in one go at the bottom.

NOTE: These borders are very rough estimates

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POLITICAL MAP

With locations:

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The Ilkhanate civil war is divided between three major factions, each with their own Chinggisid claimant, puppet or otherwise:
The Jalayirids, the Chobanids, and the Khorasani

NOTE: List hierarchy (indentation) determines suzerainity. For example, the Sutayids are a vassal to the Jalayirids, but the Sutayids themselves have several vassals of their own.

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Jalayirid Faction

• Jalayirids, under Hasan Buzurg Jalayir, had assumed the pre-eminent poisition in the Ilkhanate after defeating Ali Padshah in July 1336, 8 months ago in-game. This victory allowed Hasan Buzurg to capture Northern Iraq and the royal capital of Tabriz, installing there his own puppet Ilkhan
  • Tabriz, royal capital of the Ilkhanate, was granted as a governorate by Hazan Buzurg Jalayir, to Pir Husayin, cousin of Hasan Kucek of the Chobanids, at the beginning of the Chobanid rebellion in 1338. This means the Jalayirids would directly hold Tabriz at the beginning of the game.
    
    • I don't know how the defection of Pir Husayin as governor of Tabriz to the Chobanids could be represented? In fact, the Jalayirid forces had many Chobanid relatives and in-laws, who defected to the Chobanid side during the battle at Alataq in July 1338, which made the Chobanids into the strongest faction at the time
      
      
  • Sutayids, under Hajji Taghay, had sought assistance from Hasan Buzurg against Ali Padshah and his Oirats, likely becoming subordinate to the Jalayirids in the process. Ruler killed and replaced by a puppet loyal to the Chobanids in 1343. The reason for the Sutayids conflict with the Oirats was due to the governorship of Diyarbakir being skipped over the sons of Sutay, over to the Oirat chief Ali Padshah. Sutay was the governor of Diyarbakir prior to his natural death, while his sons governed Ahlat.
    • Kurdish emirate of Cemisgezek
    • Bingöl
    • Zraqi
    • Bulduqani
    • Mayyafaraqin
    • Kurdish principality of Hakkari
    • Kurdish principality of Bitlis
    • Kurdish principality of Bohtan
    • Kurdish principality of Bahdinan
      
      
  • Eretnids (Ilkhanate province of Anatolia) was delegated to Eretna's governorship by Hazan Buzurg when he marched East to face Ali Padshah. Eretna was the deputy and likely continued subordinate to the Jalayirids until Hazan Buzurg was defeated in battle by the Chobanids in July 1338. Eretna began juggling loyalties between the feuding Noyans, and also the Mamluk sultan. The final independence by Eretna can be said to be 1341, when he began issuing his own coinage
    
    
  • Astara, the ruler in 1337 was probably Badr al-dīn Mahmūd, who was mentioned in a decree by the late Ilkhan Abu Sa'id as being given three villages in Western Gilan, the center being Astara. As those lands fall within the sphere of the central government in Tabriz and Azerbaijan, it would be likely that this small country was subordinate to the Jalayirids, or an appointed governor of the Jalayirids
    
    
  • Shirvan, ruled by Kayqubad I of the Shirvanshah dynasty. Vassal to Jalayirids or a Jalayirid representative amir
  • Kurdish principality of Donboli
  • Kurdish principality of Ardalan
  • Kurdish principality of Soran
  • Kurdish principality of Jalali
  • Kurdish emirate of Hewler
  • Kurdish tribe of Kalhor
  • Armenian principality of Khachen, under the Hasan-Jalalyan dynasty. Vassal to Jalayirids or a Jalayirid representative amir
  • Malikate of Khalkhal
    
    

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Chobanid Faction

• Chobanids, under Hasan Kucek Suldus, situated at Karahisar in Western Anatolia at the start of the game. The Chobanid family was dispersed after the execution of Chupan and many of his sons by Abu Sa'id in the previous decade. Their power would again spike in 1338, when Hasan Kucek was able to call upon the family and unite them, including his cousin, the governor of Tabriz, Pir Husayin. The Chobanids would intervene in the succession wars and defeat the Jalayirids in battle in July 1338, driving them out of Tabriz, where the Chobanids would establish their centre of power. The Chobanids would become one of the greatest contenders for the Ilkhanate and the Jalayirid's main rival
  • When the Chobanids were called upon by Eretna on behalf of the Jalayirids, Hasan Kucek declined via rebellion in 1338. His force would march to Tabriz and Azerbaijan through Anatolia. The Chobanid family is very dispersed at game start it would appear, many of them in service to the Jalayirids, including the governor of Tabriz (who was appointed in 1338). The Chobanids primary reason for victory was a series of defections in midst of the battle at Alataq in July 1338. How could this even be represented in-game?

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Khorasani Faction

• Qasarids, under the Chinggisid claimant Togha Temür of the Borjigin clan. He is a descendant of Qasar, the brother of Genghis Khan. Togha Temür is the chief of the Qasarid tribe in Gurgan and ruler of North-Western Khorasan, which includes many other nomadic tribes. In the winter of 1336-7 he was elected Ilkhan by the Khorasani amirs in the only semi-legitimate Kurultai from among the rival claimants. In the Spring of 1337, he marched west against the Jalayirids. The united Khorasani forces had overran Persian Iraq and reached Soltaniyeh by March 1337, capturing the city soon after
  
  • I believe the country should be called the Qasarids, in line with the Jalayirids and Chobanids, due to the most famous ancestor of Togha Temür being the brother of Genghis Khan, Qasar
    • While sources say "Chete", it is simply Turkic for "bandits". Togha Temürs grandfather was condemned for unsanctioned raiding, where "Chete" likely gained its origin, hence, it is not the actual name of the tribe
      
      
  • Astarabad, under Amir Shaykh Ali Hindu
    
    
  • Tabarestan, ruled by Iskandar II of the Baduspanid dynasty. During the disintegration of the Ilkhanate, Iskandar II took the opportunity to conquer a swath of land stretching from Qazvin to Semnan, likely in concert with the Khorasani campaign in the Spring of 1337. There is no specific mention of this affiliation, but a narrative can be formed from the available sources, which suggest that Iskandar II became subordinate to Togha Temür, either before or during the invasion of Persian Iraq
    • This affiliation might even go as far back as Togha Temür's coronation in the Winter of 1336/1337 in the neighbouring Mazandaran, which would have also been the occasion on which the Khorasani campaign was planned out
    • Additionally, in 1344, together with Hassan II of Mazandaran, Iskandar II decimated the Sarbadar army which was in pursuit of Togha Temür, which adds credit to this narrative
      
      
  • Mazandaran, ruled by Hassan II of the Bavandid dynasty, is a vassal of Togha Temür of the Qasarids, whose tribe freely pastured in Mazandaran. Togha Temür is cited many times to have ruled Mazandaran/East Mazandaran, and having been crowned there, so it would seem the Bavandid dynasty had very little autonomy
    
    
  • The Jauni Kurban, ruled by amir Arghun Shah, is one of the most prominent makeshift tribal entities formed out of a collection of smaller military detachments from the time of the Mongol invasions. Arghun Shah abandoned the Khorasani campaign early in protest to the influence of Sheikh Ali Qushji, vizier of Togha Temür. (The Sarbadar rebellion in their lands might also have something to do with it)
    • Sheikh Ali Qushji's heavy taxation over Khorasan was one of the reasons for the Sarbadar rebellion. After Togha Temür was defeated in the West in June 1337, Arghun Shah captured Ali Qushji and had him executed, after which Arghun Shah became Temür's greatest supporter
    • I have marked the city of Sabzevar as ?, because I do not know if the city had it's own ruler, or if it was under the Jauni Kurban. What is known, is that the city was not under the Sarbadar rebellion at the start of the game
      
      
  • Herat, under the Kartid maliks, was the most powerful of the Khorasani amirs who had sworn to Togha Temür of the Qasarids. The Kartids were highly autonomous, and after Togha Temür suffered a series of devastating defeats after June 1337, the Kartids became practically independent
    • Merv, subject the Kartids
    • Khaf, subject to the Kartids
      
      
  • Kuhistan, under amir Abd-Allah Mulai. He also abandoned the Khorasani campaign early in protest to the influence of Ali Qushji. The political centers of Kuhistan are said to be Qaen and Birjand
    
    
  • Hamadan, under amir Mahmud Qutlugh
  • Qom, under Khwaja Tal al-Din Ali Asil
  • Kashan, under Latif Allah Kashi
    
    
• Hüleguids, under Musa Khan, formerly Ilkhan puppet of the Oirat chief, Ali Padshah, was defeated in battle 8 months ago, and received devastating losses during his retreat to Baghdad, where they were pursued by a Jalayirid subordinate. However, the Oirats managed to defeat the pursuing army, and this has given Musa Khan a little room for breathing. Him and the remaining Oirat forces are holed up in Southern Iraq, while the Sutayids and Jalayirids rule over the Oirat migratory pastures in Diyarbakir and Northern Iraq
  • Musa Khan is descended from Hülegu, hence the country should be Hüleguids
    • I have marked Musa Khan with a question mark, because while at the start of the game he was not in the Khorasani faction, he did join them a couple months later, in June 1337. Musa Khan joined the army of Togha Temür with his remaining Oirat forces, filling the gaps left by the Jauni Kurban and Kuhistan, whom had left the Khorasani army due to infighting with the vizier Shaikh Ali
      • Musa Khan died in the same month, in a battle against Hazan Buzurg of the Jalayirids, after Togha Temür abrubtly withdrew his forces (Did he want to get rid of a rival claimant?)
        • Hence, Musa Khan should start at war with the Jalayirids, same as the Khorasani, with an event to join Togha Temür as a co-belligerent in the same war (Both can accept or decline, but weighted towards accepting for AI)
          
          
  • Sharifate of Hillah, governed by Ahmad Qatadid, a member of the Qatadids of the Sharifate Mecca. Granted to him by Abu Sa'id Khan in 1330
    
    

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Unaligned Countries

• Kingdom of Georgia (independent)
  • Principality of Samtskhe
  • Duchy of Tao
  • Armenian principality of Syunik, under the Orbelian dynasty
  • Kingdom of Ani, ruled by the Zakarid dynasty
    • Principality of Amberd, ruled by the Vachutian dynasty
    • Principality of Vayots Dzor, ruled by the Proshyan dynasty
    • Principality of Artaz, ruled by the Amatuni dynasty
      
      
• The Sarbadars are a rebellion formed out of religious dervishes and secular rulers, which have risen up in North-Western Khorasan, as the Khorasani forces are busy campaigning in the West. The rebellion threatens the lands garrisoned by the Jauni Kurban and surround the city of Sabzevar, but haven't captured it yet. They would swear nominal allegiance to Togha Temür, and mint coins in his name, presuming that his inaction was an approval of their rebellion. Their attitude would change when Togha Temür later marched against them
  • I have marked the city of Sabzevar as ?, because I do not know if the city had it's own ruler, or if it was under the Jauni Kurban. What is known, is that the city was not under the Sarbadar rebellion at the start of the game
    
    
• The Qara'unas, under the Mongol Negüderi tribe, based in Ghazna, Ghur and Garchistan. Couldn't find a ruler for them. They are said to be independent or under the influence of the Chagatai Khanate. However, the Chagatai are in a crisis at the moment. The Qara'unas used to be a Mongol tümen of ten thousand, but they and the land they inhabited would become a sort of "refugee state", with multiple different ethnicities, centered on a nucleus of Jochid Mongol soldiers and commanders.
  
  
• Mihrabanids of Sistan
  
  
• Kingdom of Kharan
  
  
• Kerman, a province ruled by the Mongol governor Qutb al-Din Nikruzi. The province would be granted to the Muzaffarids of Yazd in 1340 as a reward for helping the Chobanids against the Injuids. I have not found sources regarding the affiliation of Kerman prior to being conquered. Hence, they might be fence-sitting, along with many of the other southern Ilkhanate vassals, who were often more autonomous than their northern counterparts, even when the Ilkhanate was still whole
  
  
• The Jurmanids and Ughanids were makeshift Mongol tribes, similiar to the Jauni Kurban. These two tribes were much smaller, but caused significant trouble in both Fars and Kerman, so much so that the new (1340) Muzaffarid rulers were called upon to deal with them
  
  
• Muzaffarids of Yazd
  
  
• The Shabankara tribe of Ilj
  
  
• Miladids of Larestan
  
  
• Injuids of Fars. Their name derives from the crown land tax (injü), which they collected on behalf of the Ilkhans
  
  
• Hazaraspids of Great Luristan
  
  
• Khorshidids of Little Luristan
  
  
• Gilan, was very fragmented and it could hardly be called unified. More a defensive pact:
  
  
  • Lahijan, ruled by the Naservand/Nasirwand clan, holds overlordship of Fuman and has dynastic ties to Ranekouh. This makes Lahijan likely the most powerful of the Gilani lords. Lahijan is currently ruled either by Amira Sharafu'd-Dawla or hsi father, Amira Pahlawan
    • Fuman is said to have been subject to the lord of Lahijan
      
      
  • Ranekouh, is said to share the same clan as Lahijan, but not explicitly stated to be under the same rule. The ruler of Ranekouh is likely Amira Muhammad, who is cited to have been ruler in 1350
    
    
  • Tulam, when the Ilkhanate invaded Gilan under Öljeitu in 1306-7, it is said the ruler of Tulam was the one to surround and destroy the invading force, killing their commander Qutlugh Shah. Tulam was not the richest of the Gilani lords, but he had a force of 1000 mounted troops, which gave him considerable influence over the neighbouring lords
    
    
  • Rasht is regarded as one of the other significant powers of Gilan
    
    
• Lezgistan, similiar to Gilan, was very fragmented:
  1. Kaitag Utsmiate
  2. Tabasarans
  3. Zirikhgeran
  4. Kurakh
  5. Tsakhur Khanate & Rutul

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Some of the sources used:

1. "Cambridge History of Iran Volume 5" (1968)
2. "Cambridge History of Iran Volume 6" (1986)
3. "Cambridge History of Turkey Volume 1" (2009)
4. "A History of Herat" (2022)
5. "The History of the Sarbadar Dynasty" (1971)
6. "Mongol Manpower and Persian Population" (1975)
7. "The Mongol Empire and Its Legacy" (2000)
8. "The Mongols and the Islamic World" (2017)
9. "The Mongols and the Armenians" (2010)
10. "Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire" (2004)
11. "Encyclopaedia Iranica"
12. "The Empire of the Steppes - A History of Central Asia" (1970)
13. "The Jalayirids: Dynastic State Formation in the Mongol Middle East" (2016)
14. "The End of the Ilkhanate and After - Observations on the Collapse of the Mongol Empire" (2016)
15. "Nomads as Agents of Cultural Change - The Mongols and their Eurasian Predecessors" (2014)
16. "Die Mongolen in Iran - Politik, Verwaltung und Kultur der Ilchanzeit" (1985)
17. "Ta'rīkh-i Shaikh Uwais" (1954)

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"The History of the Sarbadar Dynasty" (1971):

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"Cambridge History of Iran Volume 5" (1968):
"Cambridge History of Iran Volume 6" (1986):

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"Die Mongolen in Iran - Politik, Verwaltung und Kultur der Ilchanzeit" (1985):

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"Encyclopaedia Iranica":

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"A History of Herat" (2022):

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"Mongol Aristocrats and Beyliks in Anatolia. A study of Astarabadi's Bazm va Razm" (2011):

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"The Mongols and the Islamic World" (2017):

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"Nomadism in Iran from Antiquity to the Modern Era" (2014):

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"Nomads as Agents of Cultural Change - The Mongols and their Eurasian Predecessors" (2014):

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"The Empire of the Steppes - A History of Central Asia" (1970):

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"The End of the Ilkhanate and After - Observations on the Collapse of the Mongol Empire" (2016):

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"The Jalayirids: Dynastic State Formation in the Mongol Middle East" (2016):

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"Ta'rīkh-i Shaikh Uwais:" (1954)

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"Oirats in the Ilkhanate and the Mamluk Sultanate inthe Thirteenth to the Early Fifteenth Centuries: TwoCases of Assimilation into the Muslim Environment" (2016):

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"The Mongols and the Armenians" (2010):

The below image would indicate that Armenia was taken from the Jalayirids, rather than from the Georgians, as there is no mention of the Chobanids fighting the Georgians. Meaning the Armenians were under the Jalayirids, not the Georgians in 1337. Armenians were prevalent in Ilkhanate armies throughout the lifespan of the empire.

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I probably missed quite a bit, as my files are a mess. However, these sources give us a bit of a narrative on how the Ilkhanate should look like in April 1st, 1337.

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