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Tinto Talks #29 - 18th of September 2024

Welcome everyone to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we inform you about how things will work in our super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

In today's Tinto Talks we will delve into a few different and not entirely related topics, but they are important for what we need to talk about as they will be referenced a fair bit in future Tinto Talks.

Prosperity & Devastation
In Project Caesar this is a single value in a location ranging from -100% to +100%, where positive is prosperity and negative is devastation.

Prosperity represents how prosperous and resourceful a location is. A prosperous location increases development over time. Prosperity will slowly rise, unless different negative circumstances reduce it. If it goes negative it will cause devastation.

There is no direct way for the player to increase prosperity, but having a peaceful country will have it increase slowly over time.

prosperity.png

‘Market Fairs’ is a nice privilege to give.


Devastation represents how ravaged a location is. It includes burnt-down farms and abandoned villages, and the biggest sources of devastation are blockades and occupation.

It has a rather huge impact on a location over time, reducing how much food and raw materials it produces and the population over time.

If you have high devastation in any location in a province, the Age of Renaissance has an advance that enables a cabinet action, where you can focus on recovering devastation in a province, until it has recovered fully.

Ideally, you do not want any sort of war or conflict happening on your own lands.

devastation.png

Not ideal, let's end this war asap…

Development
One concept that has been in many of our previous GSGs is development. It has been used for various things, but in Project Caesar development represents how cultivated the land is, and how much it is used by the pops living there. The higher the development, the more people can live there, and the more it can be exploited.

As mentioned in earlier Tinto Talks, this is a value that the player mostly only has indirect control over, but you can have your cabinet working on improving development in an entire province at once.

Development helps a fair bit in improving the quality of a location, but all of these values here are still constantly being balanced.

development.png

The Woods probably has some other advantage…


Roads
We have had roads in many of our former games, and this game will also have roads. In Project Caesar this includes one of the most in-depth systems of roads we have ever made. A road is basically a connection between two land locations that reduces the proximity calculations from 40 down to 20. Most settled nations start with the capacity to build gravel roads, but there are three advances in later ages that will introduce new types of roads that can be built. Those roads will reduce proximity further, and increase movement speed for armies.

Now this may sound like it could be a lot of micromanagement if we had used the ways railroads were built in Victoria 2, or how roads were built in Imperator, but we have a few easier ways to build or upgrade road networks.

build_road.png

Here we have Kalmar selected and we are looking at building a road to Idre, which technically is in Norway at the start of the game. You can always build a road INTO the location of any country that has a positive opinion of you, so road networks can and will be connected for trade.
  • The green locations are locations you can afford to build a road from Kalmar to at the moment.
  • Striped locations are locations with a road network.
  • The white-outlined locations are the proposed path for the road between Kalmar and Idre.

Road building is one of the most important and fun parts of the control-growing gameplay loop.


Piracy & Privateers
To clarify here, a privateer is a pirate sponsored by a specific country. The ability to sponsor privateers has several different ways to unlock. First of all, every nation has access to an advance in the Age of Absolutism called Letter of Marque that reduces the cost for privateers while also making them sturdier. There are also unique advances in the Age of Discovery for some countries that allow them to hire privateers, while if you pick the Diplomatic Focus in the Age of Renaissance you have the possibility to recruit privateers that early.

Sponsoring a Privateer can be done in an area, and cost about 250 sailors per privateer, and 10 sailors each month they are active. A pirate/privateer in an area, depending on its current strength, can reduce the maritime presence of all non-friendly countries in all sea zones in that area. This hurts relations and will give them a way to get a casus belli on you though.


So how do you fight privateers? Well, you have a fleet of ships in any location in that sea area, and they will actively reduce the capacity of those pirates. Galleys are a bit better than heavy ships at hunting pirates, but light ships are by far the best at dealing with pirates, where a single light ship is about ten times as effective as a heavy ship at the start of the game.


privateers.png

You need sailors for your privateers, or they disappear..

There is a situation in the later half of the 16th century where piracy will start to grow in certain areas of the map. Pirates also have a chance to spawn from locations with pirate covens. These are buildings that peasants will build in coastal locations where control is very low.

privilege.png

This privilege when granted to the Burghers will help your privateers be more cost effective…




Stay tuned, as next week we will focus on Conquest, Integration and Casus Belli’s.
 

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I beg of you please make roads destructable. The main reason why I stopped playing Imperator were the ugly and nonsencical roads often made.

In historical terms I do feel it is justified in terms of military tactics when it comes to slowing down enemy movement, raiding foreign lands (Chevauchées or the cossack raids) What also comes to mind are the Dutch flooding their lands during 80yrs war, or the 30yrs war where surely much of the infrastructure had to have been destroyed.
 
The road concept is awesome! And what about rivers and bridges over them? I think bridges building (if confirmed) must take more time and money. Also we know that rivers behaves as roads by their own, it is interesting how you combine rivers roadmap and roads roadmap.
 
Some of it is rather weird, yes, like the Central Asian silk road has multiple VERY populous locations (last Tinto Maps revealed that Merv, Bukhara, Samarkand etc. had populations in the hundreds of thousands cathegory), so one would think that they would probably have to have at least medium high Development to facilitate those populations.
Eeeeh, Merv wasn't exactly in a period of recovery here. It's mostly a downhill trajectory, and it's not doing all too great in 1337. Bukhara... well, I'll let Ibn Battuta say it best:
[Bukhara] was formerly the capital of the lands beyond the river Jaihun, but was laid in ruins by the accursed Tankiz, the Tatar, the ancestor of the kings of al-Iraq. So at the present time its mosques, colleges and bazaars are in ruins, all but a few...
Samarqand wasn't much better off:
I journeyed to the city of Samarqand, which is one of the greatest and finest of cities, and most perfect of them in beauty. The population of the town gather [at the orchards] after the 'asr prayer to divert themselves and to promenade. Benches and seats are provided for them to sit on alongside the river, and there are booths in which fruit and other edibles are sold. There were formerly great palaces on its bank, and constructions which bear witness to the lofty aspirations of the townsfolks, but most of this is obliterated, and most of the city itself has also fallen into ruin. It has no city wall, and no gates, and there are gardens inside it.
 
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Devastation shouldn't increase just because a province is occupied, no? It should be more a factor of armies being stationed there, access to market goods being potentially cut off by the occupation, battles being fought there, etc.
yes, those will be more significant

Does this mean that battles can increase devastation in the region as a kind of lump-sum value depending on how many people and/or cannons participated in it? I'm picturing wanting to avoid fighting a battle in a rich city and so sallying out to fight in a nearby field, or watching helplessly as a minor HRE nation while France and Austria fight a major battle in your capital and leave you to pick up the pieces. Could also be cool to see the % prosperity lost in the post-battle report.
 
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if we fix support for navy based countries they would be great fun for that.

The pirates of Omiš (Poljica) could be a neat starting pirate tag in the mediterranean in 1337!
 
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1) Regarding roads connecting internationally, can you “close” road works with countries you want to embargo (effectiveness based on control).

2) Secondly, is it only land based countries that can hire privateers, or can others types of countries also hire privateers. Ex., if a country defaulted on my loans, could I send privateers to restrict their trade as punishment?

3) Also regarding privateers: can you hire land-based privateers (like bandits)?
 
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Will it be possible, despite positive relations, to forbid another country to build a road to our locations?
I imagine this to be like the request for military access in Eu4.

The reasons for this could be manifold, be it because you don't want any infrastructure along the border with a potentially dangerous enemy that makes it easier for said enemy to reach your own border, because you want to make it more difficult for a trading opponent to access your own markets, or possibly also because you want to direct the flow of people and goods through strategic road networks, for example to have the entrance to my empire 2 locations further north where I am currently building an industrial site that will be important for me in the future.

You could make something like an agreement with a neighboring nation that allows the requesting nation to build roads without asking first. Without such agreements, every road would have to be requested.

Further thought could perhaps be given to the locations where road building is allowed and where it is not. A checkbox in the location tab where, if the checkmark is set, roads can be connected and if not, no new roads can be added. This could also help with your own micromanagement so that you don't accidentally build a highway past your own fortifications.
 
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Eeeeh, Merv wasn't exactly in a period of recovery here. It's mostly a downhill trajectory, and it's not doing all too great in 1337. Bukhara... well, I'll let Ibn Battuta say it best:

Samarqand wasn't much better off:
The point was rather that Baghdad wasnt doing much better than these cities and that areas with a rather large population seem to be very underdevloped. I dont thing post-Mongol Iraq was in a recovering and I have a hard time believing that sub-saharan africa was much more developed than your average anatolian province. I also dont think Europe was that much more developed on average than the rest of the world.

I am also against portraying hordes as some underdeveloped ABC monkeys. They most definetly had their own form of societies and mobile cities (which is not even the case with the golden horde anymore) are not the same as grassland with some villagers on them. Sarai-Batu should have some green on it.
 
We have something affectionately-named the 'Naked mapmode' that shows the 3D world as God intended, free of borders and other UI icons

So... when we'll see it? (Almost) everything I've read so far about the game mechanics look awesome, so I fully trust you with designing a great game, so now seeing how the game will look like - especially the map, is the most interesting to me (mostly because I always play on the terrain map).

I beg of you please make roads destructable. The main reason why I stopped playing Imperator were the ugly and nonsencical roads often made.

Isn't that a bit too extreme?
 
yes it would

Please consider the idea of adding the various Sea Nomads as NBCs. It would be cool to have more than one kind of NBC and these peoples could make a fun playstyle. :)
While information is sparse, they seem to have been around for the last millenium at the very least for the most recent ones.

Yes you can see roads on both the flat paper map and the 3d environment

Finger crossed we can keep a 3D environment when dezooming instead of being forced to switch to a paper map like in V3...
 
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So... I'm not really sold on how development works. It feels like you chucked out the development system from EU4 (good!) only to replace it with something resembling the development system from CK3. It feels backwards to me that development effects pop capacity, but rises independently from the pops and buildings that exist in the location being developed. It's a step down from the civilization mechanic from Imperator. In Imperator, each territory had a maximum civilization level that could be improved with technology, omens, buildings, and trade; this encouraged the player to actively engage with the system to maximize civ level in a given territory. If the civ level was too low, the player had options besides waiting for the number to go up.

At best, the development system in Project Caesar is something I'm going to engage with indirectly by passing policies to boost prosperity. At worst, it's something I'll easily forget about for hours of play at a time.
I disagree, development becomes an estimator of the spontaneous construction of building, small roads, flourishing of local trade and bonification of small wetlands. It gets slowed down or accelerated by the conditions of the territory (I would call it just that, with -100/+100 ladder like stability); on such conditions you have some more control over (like armies moving or privileges). Buildings and roads are part of a bigger improvement system that you can micromanage like trade, and have large-scale effects. To me it makes sense.
 
seeing devastation in ukraine
historically, crop failure in ukraine caused famine across europe, the crisis of the late middle ages had the crop failure in ukraine as it's major contributing factor, and from that the black death. major historical events across western europe were driven by fluctuation in ukrainian grain exports, even today.
Is there anything in place to cause markets/supply/etc to take a hit from 'key regions' being devastated? will devastated areas lose production and that cause, naturally through existing game systems, the price of grain to skyrocket, crashing supply lines and causing devastation in provinces left without food?

or is this totally overthinking how complicated systems in this game can even be?
 
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By the way, looking at the header image of the TT showing development/prosperity(?) values across the map, did/will you input (as close as possible) estimations/historical values for each location, or is it randomized for the game start? Northern Italy/China/Northern India are lit up, and while those are places which — based on superficial knowledge of the state of the world in 1337 — one would expect to be prosperous, I'm curious if any research went into it or the team just 'went with the flow' of which places should begin more prosperous.
3283.jpg


I am no expert, but I feel really weird about this map (I assume this is a development map). China is a blob of hyper-devloped region and central Europe in general is more developed than most of the world? Baghdad, despite being burned by the mongols is doing fine (but Samarkand isnt)? I was expecting more dark/brownish colours across central Europe and more green/yellow around Yemen and certain areas of the golden horde. Even certain sub-saharan region look more developed than most of Anatolia, which strikes me a bit odd. Cities like Konya, Tokat, Ankara and Bursa were on the anatolian silk-road as well as the pilgrimage roads. Kinda weird how they are all still darkish blobs (with the exception of Bursa).
Some of it is rather weird, yes, like the Central Asian silk road has multiple VERY populous locations (last Tinto Maps revealed that Merv, Bukhara, Samarkand etc. had populations in the hundreds of thousands cathegory), so one would think that they would probably have to have at least medium high Development to facilitate those populations.
This is the first iteration of the development mapmode, something that is not trivial to calculate (because answering the question of 'How much developed was each location of the world in 1337?' is... complex).

The way we crafted this first iteration was by setting the highest value we wanted for the most developed location in the world, which we considered to be Beijing, as being the main capital of Yuán, and a very, very impressive place by all the accounts of contemporary travelers. After that, we also discussed, coming from our experience on the map-making research process, some 'regional champions': Paris, Cairo, Delhi, etc. And from there, we 'irradiated' decreasing development values into neighboring areas and regions. Those values are also automatically adjusted by the different terrain types (as each one has a different positive or negative value), and then we made some manual adjustments, based on other factors that we aren't considering (like soil fertility). A last step was adding specific values to certain locations, to round up relative consistency.

Albeit not being perfect, we think that this is a decent system for a first iteration, as it also allow us to do further adjustments quite easily, based on playtesting and player feedback.
 
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This is the first iteration of the development mapmode, something that is not trivial to calculate (because answering the question of 'How much developed was each location of the world in 1337?' is... complex).

The way we crafted this first iteration was by setting the highest value we wanted for the most developed location in the world, which we considered to be Beijing, as being the main capital of Yuán, and a very, very impressive place by all the accounts of contemporary travelers. After that, we also discussed, coming from our experience on the map-making research process, some 'regional champions': Paris, Cairo, Delhi, etc. And from there, we 'irradiated' decreasing development values into neighboring areas and regions. Those values are also automatically adjusted by the different terrain types (as each one has a different positive or negative value), and then we made some manual adjustments, based on other factors that we aren't considering (like soil fertility). A last step was adding specific values to certain locations, to round up relative consistency.

Albeit not being perfect, we think that this is a decent system for a first iteration, as it also allow us to do further adjustments quite easily, based on playtesting and player feedback.
But sources were before or after Temur..? :)
 
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