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Tinto Talks #29 - 18th of September 2024

Welcome everyone to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we inform you about how things will work in our super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

In today's Tinto Talks we will delve into a few different and not entirely related topics, but they are important for what we need to talk about as they will be referenced a fair bit in future Tinto Talks.

Prosperity & Devastation
In Project Caesar this is a single value in a location ranging from -100% to +100%, where positive is prosperity and negative is devastation.

Prosperity represents how prosperous and resourceful a location is. A prosperous location increases development over time. Prosperity will slowly rise, unless different negative circumstances reduce it. If it goes negative it will cause devastation.

There is no direct way for the player to increase prosperity, but having a peaceful country will have it increase slowly over time.

prosperity.png

‘Market Fairs’ is a nice privilege to give.


Devastation represents how ravaged a location is. It includes burnt-down farms and abandoned villages, and the biggest sources of devastation are blockades and occupation.

It has a rather huge impact on a location over time, reducing how much food and raw materials it produces and the population over time.

If you have high devastation in any location in a province, the Age of Renaissance has an advance that enables a cabinet action, where you can focus on recovering devastation in a province, until it has recovered fully.

Ideally, you do not want any sort of war or conflict happening on your own lands.

devastation.png

Not ideal, let's end this war asap…

Development
One concept that has been in many of our previous GSGs is development. It has been used for various things, but in Project Caesar development represents how cultivated the land is, and how much it is used by the pops living there. The higher the development, the more people can live there, and the more it can be exploited.

As mentioned in earlier Tinto Talks, this is a value that the player mostly only has indirect control over, but you can have your cabinet working on improving development in an entire province at once.

Development helps a fair bit in improving the quality of a location, but all of these values here are still constantly being balanced.

development.png

The Woods probably has some other advantage…


Roads
We have had roads in many of our former games, and this game will also have roads. In Project Caesar this includes one of the most in-depth systems of roads we have ever made. A road is basically a connection between two land locations that reduces the proximity calculations from 40 down to 20. Most settled nations start with the capacity to build gravel roads, but there are three advances in later ages that will introduce new types of roads that can be built. Those roads will reduce proximity further, and increase movement speed for armies.

Now this may sound like it could be a lot of micromanagement if we had used the ways railroads were built in Victoria 2, or how roads were built in Imperator, but we have a few easier ways to build or upgrade road networks.

build_road.png

Here we have Kalmar selected and we are looking at building a road to Idre, which technically is in Norway at the start of the game. You can always build a road INTO the location of any country that has a positive opinion of you, so road networks can and will be connected for trade.
  • The green locations are locations you can afford to build a road from Kalmar to at the moment.
  • Striped locations are locations with a road network.
  • The white-outlined locations are the proposed path for the road between Kalmar and Idre.

Road building is one of the most important and fun parts of the control-growing gameplay loop.


Piracy & Privateers
To clarify here, a privateer is a pirate sponsored by a specific country. The ability to sponsor privateers has several different ways to unlock. First of all, every nation has access to an advance in the Age of Absolutism called Letter of Marque that reduces the cost for privateers while also making them sturdier. There are also unique advances in the Age of Discovery for some countries that allow them to hire privateers, while if you pick the Diplomatic Focus in the Age of Renaissance you have the possibility to recruit privateers that early.

Sponsoring a Privateer can be done in an area, and cost about 250 sailors per privateer, and 10 sailors each month they are active. A pirate/privateer in an area, depending on its current strength, can reduce the maritime presence of all non-friendly countries in all sea zones in that area. This hurts relations and will give them a way to get a casus belli on you though.


So how do you fight privateers? Well, you have a fleet of ships in any location in that sea area, and they will actively reduce the capacity of those pirates. Galleys are a bit better than heavy ships at hunting pirates, but light ships are by far the best at dealing with pirates, where a single light ship is about ten times as effective as a heavy ship at the start of the game.


privateers.png

You need sailors for your privateers, or they disappear..

There is a situation in the later half of the 16th century where piracy will start to grow in certain areas of the map. Pirates also have a chance to spawn from locations with pirate covens. These are buildings that peasants will build in coastal locations where control is very low.

privilege.png

This privilege when granted to the Burghers will help your privateers be more cost effective…




Stay tuned, as next week we will focus on Conquest, Integration and Casus Belli’s.
 

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View attachment 1189197

I'm guessing this is either the development or prosperity map? Having development follow country borders almost 1:1 seems like a weird balancing choice. Looking at China, and seeing places which have been impoverished for centuries and (SEVERELY) underdeveloped for most of their history having a higher value than the majority of places in Europe seems like a major oversight. The Yunnan-Guizhou plateau, and not to even mention the Gobi Desert, shouldn't have higher development values than the plains of France.

Are there plans to make development, within the confines of a nation, be more partial to local conditions as opposed to national conditions? It'd make sense for larger empires to have a dichotomy between what's considered the (urbanized) core and the (rural) periphery. A location's potential shouldn't be primarily tied to a nation's government or ideas. Going merely by this map, I'm foreseeing some issues, let's give some examples:


- Spain owning the Low Countries shouldn't hamper its urbanization and developments in trade.
- Afghanistan conquering down to the Indus Valley shouldn't suddenly make the people living there lose their agricultural productivity
- Ming owning all of Manchuria shouldn't suddenly have it turn into a bread basket by the graces of the Mandate of Heaven
View attachment 1189237 View attachment 1189238

Extremes within the borders of one country seem entirely non-existent, that was my point. While, on this map, once you leave China proper you just fall down a development crevice. Seeing Liaoning be almost devoid of any development, just because they fall beyond the China nation, whereas literally deserts and deep mountainous areas have more development than France, is an oversight.
Two comments:

1. You've got a fair point regarding the difference among regions, as we used them as a basis to set the development, and they're basically functional units for map-making purposes. Our plan is to finetune after we finish the map review, as we will have more accurate provinces and areas by then, making easier the task. And that will also impact this map, which will also be more finetuned, before thinking in further iterations.

2. This is just the situation of the starting setup, which is necessarily an abstracted simulation of the reality in 1337. Just after the game starts, it will organically diverge, by the means described by Johan in the main post, at a location level. So, let's say, even if you have a country-wide modifier on Prosperity, as 'Market Fairs', then its effect on the Development of each location will be different, as it will be affected in turn by terrain and other modifiers. So, let's say, you can make general decisions, but those will usually have a granular effect.
 
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@Pavía Since the development map has been shown in this Tinto Talks, will/can you share the development map mode in future Tinto Maps for potential feedback?
Sure.
 
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The point was rather that Baghdad wasnt doing much better than these cities and that areas with a rather large population seem to be very underdevloped. I dont thing post-Mongol Iraq was in a recovering and I have a hard time believing that sub-saharan africa was much more developed than your average anatolian province. I also dont think Europe was that much more developed on average than the rest of the world.

I am also against portraying hordes as some underdeveloped ABC monkeys. They most definetly had their own form of societies and mobile cities (which is not even the case with the golden horde anymore) are not the same as grassland with some villagers on them. Sarai-Batu should have some green on it.
I won't bother typing out the quote, but at least given Ibn Battuta's arrival there shortly before the start date (within a decade), it wasn't so bad. Western half was mostly in ruins but the eastern half was great. That's a fair sight better than Samarqand or Bukhara.

I'd agree that Sarai needs much more development.
 
Prosperity represents how prosperous and resourceful a location is. A prosperous location increases development over time. Prosperity will slowly rise, unless different negative circumstances reduce it. If it goes negative it will cause devastation.

There is no direct way for the player to increase prosperity, but having a peaceful country will have it increase slowly over time.

Besides war with enemy armies and outright rebellions with rebel armies, what other circumstances can reduce prosperity? Epidemics and extreme natural phenomenas quite likely. But how about internal politics? It would seem strange if prosperity continues to grow when a malevolent 0/0/0 ruler (whatever the PC equivalent of that) taxes the population to death to fund his new palaces which are way too big for the country, tries to forcefully convert the population to a new religion, actively tries to eliminate some groups, or something similar.

EDIT: How about the location not having its material needs met, whether those are food or luxuries for the population, or production method materials needed by buildings. Any impact on prosperity increase?
 
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So... I'm not really sold on how development works. It feels like you chucked out the development system from EU4 (good!) only to replace it with something resembling the development system from CK3. It feels backwards to me that development effects pop capacity, but rises independently from the pops and buildings that exist in the location being developed. It's a step down from the civilization mechanic from Imperator. In Imperator, each territory had a maximum civilization level that could be improved with technology, omens, buildings, and trade; this encouraged the player to actively engage with the system to maximize civ level in a given territory. If the civ level was too low, the player had options besides waiting for the number to go up.

At best, the development system in Project Caesar is something I'm going to engage with indirectly by passing policies to boost prosperity. At worst, it's something I'll easily forget about for hours of play at a time.
I agree with this. The apparent detachment from the building system, and other potential organic inputs to the development value, feels out of keeping with the rest of the game. Development should be largely just a measure of how... developed... a location is - which means how many buildings, roads, etc etc. Obviously some other factors should be there too, but it should be reflective of the situation, primarily.

Instead that is something that has no name within the game, it's just how many buildings are there, whereas "Development" is seemingly still some semi-arbitrary ethereal concept.

Missed opportunity, I think.
 
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I agree with this. The apparent detachment from the building system, and other potential organic inputs to the development value, feels out of keeping with the rest of the game. Development should be largely just a measure of how... developed... a location is - which means how many buildings, roads, etc etc. Obviously some other factors should be there too, but it should be reflective of the situation, primarily.

Instead that is something that has no name within the game, it's just how many buildings are there, whereas "Development" is seemingly still some semi-arbitrary ethereal concept.

Missed opportunity, I think.
maybe it portrays development of cities,towns,villages etc? I dont think buildings here portray all that...or they do?
 
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If you are selecting a road from X to Y on the UI and if to get from X to Y you have to pass through A, B, and C as such "X - A - B - C - Y", then you have created 4 road 'segments' indicated by the '-'

This is the way that I am understanding what has been stated.
X and Y are not adjacent so there's no 'road from X to Y.' You're describing 4 roads.
 
maybe it portrays development of cities,towns,villages etc? I dont think buildings here portray all that...or they do?
Or maybe the reverse, the development of the everything that's not a village, town or city, and so largely ignoring buildings? I guess that does make sense if that's the intention. The term seems wrong in that case, but other than that... fair enough
 
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I was wondering why development is so drastically low in the red sea and in the Nubian regions? These are heavily occupied regions that are important centers of trade and had been inhabited in cities for millenia. It seems odd that a densely populated region like Nubia, the horn and Yemen are so low compared to the other major economic centers around the globe. I understand that Makuria was significantly weaker due to the Ayyubid invasion, but Alodia did not decline until centuries later.
 
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Pirate news? The day before International Talk Like a Pirate Day?

Huge pirate stonks. Omega stonks. One Blackbillion dubloons. The One Piece is real. I am the Captain now.

On a related note, how will the Victual Brothers be handled? Will they be considered Lubeckian privateers or something else?
 
Assuming Yuan collapses and some country like Ming reunifies China and puts the capital somewhere in the middle (Nanjing, Wuchang, Xi'an etc.), and then builds courthouses in most province capitals and a road network between them - what's the expected median control? 40%? 50%? 70%?

Speaking of which, there should be a way for estates/foreign countries to smuggle all kinds of contraband if market acess is decent, but control isn't, like Qing Guandong, French Pyrenees etc.
 
Should occupations already add devastation? I certainly see the reasoning, here, but while devastation should definitely increase while an army is in the process of taking over a territory, I also can imagine an occupation that is more respectful of local customs and not done with the goal to disrupt the place and generate unrest.

Maybe it could go with occupation stances?
 
I won't bother typing out the quote, but at least given Ibn Battuta's arrival there shortly before the start date (within a decade), it wasn't so bad. Western half was mostly in ruins but the eastern half was great. That's a fair sight better than Samarqand or Bukhara.

I'd agree that Sarai needs much more development.
My point is falling short. Whether it is Bukhara or Samarkand is besides the point. The main point is that major population centres are less developed than some backwater places in Europe and that China is hyper-developed. By all means keep Smarkand or Bukhara more devastated than Baghdad, but Baghdad shouldnt comparatively be more developed than other major population centres. You have some ~700 000 people living in north west Anatolia, which is less developed than some backwater places in central Europe (or subsahran Africa being more developed than these parts of Anatolia for that matter). Now I am no expert in the economic aspect of central Europe, but I am fairly sure that central Europe was not that far ahead of the rest of the world and I have a hard time believing that most of China was some kind of hyper-developed placed compared to the rest of the world. We are talking about some junggles/mountains having more dev than entire population centres. Idk how that's not odd.


Or another example: How is Yemen a backwater place compared to Iraq that went through mongol devastation? We are not talking about being somewhat similar, but Iraq being massively ahead of Yemen that didnt see any kind of devastation. Shouldnt Sanaa (or anything similar in the region) or Aden see some light green at least?
 
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I'd also want to ask if catastrophic floods can cause devastation, but that will probably be covered in a future TT.
 
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Welcome everyone to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we inform you about how things will work in our super secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

In today's Tinto Talks we will delve into a few different and not entirely related topics, but they are important for what we need to talk about as they will be referenced a fair bit in future Tinto Talks.

Prosperity & Devastation
In Project Caesar this is a single value in a location ranging from -100% to +100%, where positive is prosperity and negative is devastation.

Prosperity represents how prosperous and resourceful a location is. A prosperous location increases development over time. Prosperity will slowly rise, unless different negative circumstances reduce it. If it goes negative it will cause devastation.

There is no direct way for the player to increase prosperity, but having a peaceful country will have it increase slowly over time.

View attachment 1189194
‘Market Fairs’ is a nice privilege to give.


Devastation represents how ravaged a location is. It includes burnt-down farms and abandoned villages, and the biggest sources of devastation are blockades and occupation.

It has a rather huge impact on a location over time, reducing how much food and raw materials it produces and the population over time.

If you have high devastation in any location in a province, the Age of Renaissance has an advance that enables a cabinet action, where you can focus on recovering devastation in a province, until it has recovered fully.

Ideally, you do not want any sort of war or conflict happening on your own lands.

View attachment 1189129
Not ideal, let's end this war asap…

Development
One concept that has been in many of our previous GSGs is development. It has been used for various things, but in Project Caesar development represents how cultivated the land is, and how much it is used by the pops living there. The higher the development, the more people can live there, and the more it can be exploited.

As mentioned in earlier Tinto Talks, this is a value that the player mostly only has indirect control over, but you can have your cabinet working on improving development in an entire province at once.

Development helps a fair bit in improving the quality of a location, but all of these values here are still constantly being balanced.

View attachment 1189128
The Woods probably has some other advantage…


Roads
We have had roads in many of our former games, and this game will also have roads. In Project Caesar this includes one of the most in-depth systems of roads we have ever made. A road is basically a connection between two land locations that reduces the proximity calculations from 40 down to 20. Most settled nations start with the capacity to build gravel roads, but there are three advances in later ages that will introduce new types of roads that can be built. Those roads will reduce proximity further, and increase movement speed for armies.

Now this may sound like it could be a lot of micromanagement if we had used the ways railroads were built in Victoria 2, or how roads were built in Imperator, but we have a few easier ways to build or upgrade road networks.

View attachment 1189127
Here we have Kalmar selected and we are looking at building a road to Idre, which technically is in Norway at the start of the game. You can always build a road INTO the location of any country that has a positive opinion of you, so road networks can and will be connected for trade.
  • The green locations are locations you can afford to build a road from Kalmar to at the moment.
  • Striped locations are locations with a road network.
  • The white-outlined locations are the proposed path for the road between Kalmar and Idre.

Road building is one of the most important and fun parts of the control-growing gameplay loop.


Piracy & Privateers
To clarify here, a privateer is a pirate sponsored by a specific country. The ability to sponsor privateers has several different ways to unlock. First of all, every nation has access to an advance in the Age of Absolutism called Letter of Marque that reduces the cost for privateers while also making them sturdier. There are also unique advances in the Age of Discovery for some countries that allow them to hire privateers, while if you pick the Diplomatic Focus in the Age of Renaissance you have the possibility to recruit privateers that early.

Sponsoring a Privateer can be done in an area, and cost about 250 sailors per privateer, and 10 sailors each month they are active. A pirate/privateer in an area, depending on its current strength, can reduce the maritime presence of all non-friendly countries in all sea zones in that area. This hurts relations and will give them a way to get a casus belli on you though.


So how do you fight privateers? Well, you have a fleet of ships in any location in that sea area, and they will actively reduce the capacity of those pirates. Galleys are a bit better than heavy ships at hunting pirates, but light ships are by far the best at dealing with pirates, where a single light ship is about ten times as effective as a heavy ship at the start of the game.


View attachment 1189126
You need sailors for your privateers, or they disappear..

There is a situation in the later half of the 16th century where piracy will start to grow in certain areas of the map. Pirates also have a chance to spawn from locations with pirate covens. These are buildings that peasants will build in coastal locations where control is very low.

View attachment 1189125
This privilege when granted to the Burghers will help your privateers be more cost effective…




Stay tuned, as next week we will focus on Conquest, Integration and Casus Belli’s.
I'm not sure that separation of development and prosperity/devastation makes sense. Couldn't they just be the same thing, if the scaling is done properly?
 
Does development of a location have a cap (like at 100) or does it just get better and better like in EU4?

Also the maps shows development, will the colors change based on the most developed location, meaning that if a country were to suddenly have insane development the rest of the map would look more orange, or will certain colors always be associated with certain development ratings?