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Tinto Maps #19 - 20th of September 2024 - India

Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at India! Yup, a whole subcontinent… Exciting!

Let me say a foreword before I start sharing with you some beautiful maps. Some of you may wonder why we decided to make the entire Indian subcontinent in just one DD, instead of spreading it a bit. There are two reasons for that. The first is the political situation: the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq. You will soon see that it rules over more than half of the region, approximately; so splitting that polity into several DDs would have felt weird.

The other is that we felt that a more cohesive approach made sense in this region, as it’s sooo diverse compared to others, that the way we approached it, both for its setup and content, was from the generic to the particular; therefore, we think that it will also help us more when we tackle the review of the region. Speaking of that, don’t worry much about the time available to prepare suggestions; you may already know that we have a backlog of several regions, and therefore weeks, before we hit the Indian review, so you will have plenty of time to research and prepare them. In any case, as it’s a massive task (we know it firsthand), we’ll let you know a bit in advance when we plan to start the in-depth review of it, so you have time to wrap it up.

As a final say, I just want to mention that an old acquaintance of the community, @Trin Tragula , now Design Lead in CK3, helped us to map a big chunk of it. Thanks, mate! And now, maps!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.png

As I just mentioned, the Sultanate of Delhi is at its zenith, under Muhammad bin Tughlaq, extending through the Indo-Gangetic Plain, including Bengal, and to the south, throughout the Deccan. There we have its toughest contender, Vijayanagar, a county that is a bulwark of Hinduism. Other important countries around it are Orissa and Sindh, but much smaller countries generally surround Delhi. You might wonder how it would be possible to stop Delhi from completely controlling the region, then. For this, two things are affecting its capability to achieve it. The first is the base game mechanics: ruling over so many different cultures and religions with low control will be hard. The second is a Situation that involves the Fall of the Sultanate; if Delhi wants to succeed, it will have to fight back against rebellions, which involves the potential independence of the Bengalese countries or newborn ones such as the Bahmanis, and the multiple Indian states around it, which are ready to take over it.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.jpg


Locations:
Locations.jpg

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Locations 4.jpg
Yes, we are making some adjustments to the coloring of the mapmodes!

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

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Provinces 3.jpg

Provinces 4.jpg

Areas:
Areas.jpg

The bug is still there, yes… The area that is to the southwest is Malabar.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.

Development:
Development.jpg

A new map mode is born! Here you have the development of India. The most developed place is Delhi, which is part of the fertile Gangetic Plain.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg


Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Cultures 2.jpg

Cultures 3.jpg
Not an entirely new map, but a glorious one. We chose it to be the one to present how the different cultures could be present in the game for a reason.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

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Religions 3.jpg
India is the birthplace of numerous religions, and that needs to be reflected in the religious map. The main religion is Hinduism, but don’t be deceived by its homogeneous look, as it will be quite deep feature-wise. We also have Buddhism, which is at a low point, after some centuries of prosecutions. Mahayana is a majority in Sindh, although that's not completely exact, as an earlier form of Buddhism was practiced there; we’re also not 100% convinced about it being a majority, as some sources and accounts set the Islamization of the region to be completed under the Ghaznavids, in the 11th and 12th century, while others delay it until the 14th century - we followed the later approach, but we're very open to feedback in this specific matter. Another form of Buddhism is Theravada, which is the most practiced religion in Sailan. Some interesting minorities present in the region are Jains (yellow stripes), Nestorians (the pink stripe in Malabar, which portrays the ‘Saint Thomas Christians’), Jews (which have their own separate culture, ‘Kochini’), and several Animist confessions, of which we’ve already split Satsana Phi, the traditional religion of Tai people, and Sanamahism, the religion of Meitei people. Oh, although it’s not strictly part of the region, the light blue stripes to the north is Bön religion.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Raw Materials 4.jpg
India was for some time in the period the wealthiest region of the world, one of the main reasons being that it’s incredibly rich in very different types of resources, including some of the expensive ones. That will make for a very interesting economic gameplay.

Markets:
Markets India.png

There are several market centers in India that we think portray well the situation in 1337: Kabul (yes, it’s in Afghanistan, but it’s one for the area of Kashmir), Delhi, Khambat, Calicut, Pulicat, Varanasi, and Chittagong.

Population:
Population.jpg

Population 2.jpg

Population 3.jpg

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Population 5.jpg

Population 10.jpg

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India has a big population. To be precise, around 95M pops. Delhi is the second largest country in the world in population, with 41M pops, which makes it a behemoth, with very serious governance challenges. I’m also showing this week the progress we’re making with the coloring of the population mapmode; the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).

And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed this massive Tinto Maps. Next week we will be taking a look at the Steppe. Which one, you might wonder? Well, the one ruled by the Golden Horde, from Ukraine in the west to Mongolia in the east. Cheers!
 
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I would consider distinguishing the Buddhism of Tibet/Mongolia as Vajrayana. I know there is a question of Vajrayana being a form or a branch of Mahayana, and that may as well be a theological question. I have one practical reason to make Vajrayana distinct: Tibetan Buddhism makes primary use of a distinct written tradition in the Tibetan language; these Tibetan religious texts are also used in e.g. Mongolia, but not among Chinese or Japanese speaking buddhists. Conversely, buddhism in China has an extensive tradition of Chinese language religious texts, used in e.g. Japan but not in Tibetan buddhism. These are not just a matter of localized translations, but distinct religious-linguistic traditions. (I don't know much about Buddhism in Sindh, I presume they were just working out of Sanskrit.) For a grand strategy game, this has meaningful political implications, as Tibetan religious figures, including the Dalai Lama, are central to Tibetan state and politics. Essentially, Tibetan Tulkus (reincarnated lineages) are recognized as religious leaders throughout Tibetan and Mongolian buddhism, but not in China/Japan, as I understand it. All this is to say, though Vajrayana may be theologically a branch of Mahayana, I think it is necessary to distinguish it in the game for the purposes of the game. You could label all of Europe as 'Nicene Christianity'...but should you?
 
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I have many concerns but there are two primary ones .Why are Doti Raika and kumaoni independent from khasa ?Why is there not a single khas people in kumaon and in doti.These region also called khasan was the heartland of the khasas .In fact khasas themselves are believed to have come from kumaon region.Katyuri kings who were natives of kumaon were also khasas.Doti Raika was formed after the fragmentation of Katyuri kingdom .I will link my post of another thread .

I also couldn't read the name of kingdom beltween limbuwan and khasa.Also why is the name of the khasa dynasty Purang and not "Khasa Malla" dynasty ?
Why is Lumbini and makwanpur under Delhi?Lumbini and makwanpur were likely ruled by local chieftiens.Khasas have inscription in Limbwan indicating khas influence so it could be added into khasa .
Have many more thing to add but its late now so will do later.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/india-in-project-caesar.1687547/post-29799772
 
It's not easy, and its initial iteration, the situations for the Fall of Delhi and the Red Turbans Rebellion, coupled with the core game mechanic, made them extremely punishing (something we're finetuning through constant playtesting and iterating).

are you sure they are punishing enough? send me the current alpha build and i'll test it give you guys some feedback.
 
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I'm a bit worried about the location density of India, there's suprisingly few locations, which is especially worrying considering the sheer size, population and importance of what is practically it's own continent. Also, will we get an extra map on the Indian Ocean islands, as I would love to see how the Andaman and Nicobar islands are handled, especially in the case of one isolated and peculiar island.
 
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According to @Sulphurologist's terrain map, these hills are too small to be shown if we are to be consistent with the rest of the map. So take it up with the lack of a terrain type for low hills, I guess. Perhaps you could argue there should be impassable zones?

View attachment 1190221
Just want to add that the displayed world map version on my post is a compressed one, which misses lots of nuance.
You can download/view the full-res world version just below it in my post.
EDIT: full topographic review here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...of-september-2024-india.1704372/post-29937299

@PerhapsItsChondoLal you might be interested in this, too.

Here's a quick snapshot made with my smartphone in the meantime.
1726867517150.png
 
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Regarding the Oiniwar kingdom:

The dynasty name should be Oiniwar, Thakur is just a title used by SOME of the Oiniwar kings - it just means "Lord" in various Indian languages. The Dynasty name itself is Oiniwar.
The country name should be Mithila - Kingdom of Mithila. Or Tirhut if you wanna continue the EU4 tradition.

Source:





Regarding the Bengal Dynasties:

Again, Khan is just a title used by various Muslim Rulers of Persianate origin. So:
Saptagram was ruled by the Ilyas Shahi. (Specifically Shamsuddin Ilyas Shah)
Satgaon was ruled by Mubarak Shahi. (Specifically Fakhruddin Mubarak Shah, though his son won't keep the same title and should exist as a character in the game - Ikhtiyaruddin Ghazi Shah)
Gaur was ruled by Ali Shahi. (Specifically Alauddin Ali Shah)

Ikhtiyaruddin of Satgaon and Alauddin of Gaur were both killed by Shamsuddin who unifies the Bengal Sultanate and establishes the historical dynasty, but alternate establishment of Ghazi Shahi and Ali Shahi dynasties would be fun playthroughs.

Sources:
 
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FInally you posted it, i have several advices:

1. Vajrayana Buddhism, is it present in Awadhi and Bhojpuri culture provinces? It was prevalent later on in upper Himalayas and areas around Delhi. Shouldn't it be significant minority in these places? By the 14th century, it shall have significant presence in Tibetan Plateau, especially in Leh and Lhasa, major cities. Bon being relished as the religion of herders and lower class perhaps.

2. Ratapura should have Raipur as a subject. also Kanker, Sarangarh should be tributaries. The Haihaiyavansi dynasty had these tribal and feudal lords under them. The Raipur branch of the family had split by 14th cenruty.

3. Mahoba, ruled by Chandela decsendants can't be called Jejjakabhukti - than name is for Khajuraho city, even if earlier Chandelas used that name for their kingdom. Bundelkhand can also be called Jejakabhukti. THe Chandela ruled land should either be called Kalinjara or just Chandela, like how Oinwara is the name of dynasty but also used as name for the kingdom. I am saying that assuming its (Jej.), so jejakabhukti.

4. Just a suggestion but Indo-Gangetic plains should be more location dense. places like doab, northern Punjab and Bhojpuri/Maithil regions should have more locations.

5. Malwa and Rajputana east of Aravali had more cultural connections, trade and regional bonds, Marwar should have been an area with Sindh as lower Indus. the aravali had made that clear distinction. the name Rajputana itself doesn't make sense to be used for modern state of India, Rajasthan - its a british classification as those areas were the ones with good defensiveness due to being in either side of aravali, hence never fully under Delhi's rule, mostly independent or vassals.

6. Bundelkhand and Baghelkhand make no sense in Gondwana. instead Gondwana should have Jharkhand and Chhota Nagpur areas - owing top them being havily tribal and not mainstream like rest of Gondwana. some places of Odisha should be also in Gondwana. Gondwana is a name of a tribe/ethnic group and it was a kingdom once, a better name for it would be Mahakoshal or its other spelling variations. Bundelkhand, Baghelkhand and Gird along with the "tail" of Doab should be a separate area as Vindhyanchal or Vindhyas - name of the hills there.

7. Punjab seems too big as an area compared to others. it shouldn't have Himalayas at all - in fact the Himalayas under Punjab and few places from Nepal area should be separate area called "Himachal" - the name of those regions of Himalaya and also the modern state of Himachal Pradesh of India lies there. those places have no similarities to Punjab at all. Still Punjab would be too big - pothwar and northern Punjab should be in Upper Indus and rest of Punjab be in Central or Middle Indus. Punjab as a name was popularised in Sikh Empire as it was a local colloquial term in its heartland. Most empires before has Multan, Lahore and Delhi as provinces holding those lands. The Far north of Rajputana area should be in Punjab/Middle Indus as it was politically administrated under Punjabi cities under and even before Muslim rule.

8. Why are there no ports in Gujarat? Surat is a well known historical port city. in fact, there should be several ports in Gujarat and Saurashtra areas.

9. Southern Assam and Sylhet shouldn't be Bengali at all. During that time period Bengali people were setlling on the other side of delta. Dhaka should be Bengali majority but other areas east of the river should have significant non-Bengali minorities. Sylhet and southern assam were mainly inhabited by Cachars. Assam valley should have high numbers of assamese minority too. the Assamese in this map should is representing Kochi or Koech-bihari culture instead of actual assamese, right? Sunderban delta region should have significant tribal minorities too, that forest was mainly inhabited by Munda and santhals.

10. Would there be Dogri as a separate culture? Also, please ensure to not add a caste as some ethnic group, even locals mistake castes as ethnic identity many times.

11. Western Punjab and Afghanistan should still have significant Buddhist Mahayanas. there was also a place in that region called Kafiristan - inhabited mainly by Hindus, along with other non Islamic faiths. Hinduism should be also present in some way in assam valley, given its history as kingdom of Kamarupa.

12. Jharkhand should have gems and diamond as trading goods, it was found there historically and trade routes linked it to Surat - the port city of Gujarat.

There might be more things i would notice but these seem important ones to me as a basic level. Please let all north indian cultures except bhils, gonds, marathi and bengali to form Rajputana - don't limit it to only rajasthani cultures. ofcourse other non indo-aryan tribes i missed shouldn't be able to form it either.
 
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Notes on Culture:

  • The use of "Orissan" instead of Odia is strange. It should be changed, its like using "Bengalese" instead of Bengali
  • The Dahtki Culture is absent, and I feel it should be present
  • Korku culture is absent, and should be present
  • I already posted about this on the Persian Tinto Maps, but Sindhi should be more widespread in the Kacchi Plain
  • Rename Maratha to Marathi. Maratha is a caste, while Marathi is the broader language and ethnicity.
  • Less sure about this, but maybe Dehlavi should be changed to Kauravi, as iirc by this time Dehlavi was mostly a language spoken by the elites of the Sultanate, while the common people around the city of Delhi spoke Kauravi. (Maybe divide the culture into two separate groups, one for the Persianized Islamic elite and another for the common man living in the region)
  • The Rohingya people should be represented in Arakan. The Sino-Tibetans did not start migrating into Arakan until the 10th century, and before then Arakan was inhabited by Indo-Aryan peoples. Given the recency of the Sino-Tibetan takeover of Arakan, the Indo-Aryan population should be even more dominant than it was just before the Rohingya genocide. They should form the majority across Arakan, with Rakhine minorities spread throughout the region.
 
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the stripes on several locations mark that they’re overpopulated, as they have more pops living on them than the pop capacity available (something that may be reviewed, as balancing very densely populated regions such as India or China is really challenging).
Increasing the density of locations in places with high populations might help to resolve this issue. North India should definitely have at least the same level of location density as Italy, though it should ideally be even more dense than Italy given its economic importance and high level of population. It would also be useful for the later fragmentation of the Delhi Sultanate, and to better represent the borders of the various breakaway states that formed afterwards.
 
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After being quiet (aside from further Low Lands updates :p ) for most of the summer because I knew very little of those lands, here we go again with Sri Lanka!

- Ratanpura is an Indian city, the Sri Lanka city is Ratnapura. It should have gems imo.
- Is Kanda suppsoed to be Kandy? Kandy isn't founded at the start date though.
- All in all, the Kingdom of Dambadeniya never controled that much land, they especially in the east. Not sure how it should be changed though.
- Would be cool if Sigiriya could be added!
 
While I have the opportunity, i'd like to share some feedback on the new map gfx style(s).

For the most part, i believe the 'land based' changes look great. The trade-goods (raw materials) map mode looks especially good. Regarding some of the criticism about legibility; it appears at present this is more the consequence of far zoom levels, rather than the clarity of the gfx stylisation itself.

I do however take issue with the new climate map mode. Compared to the previous design, this appears to both look worse stylistically, and reduce the clarity of information - it's harder to see what climate is where.

1726876519632.png


My take on the new design (above) is to properly 'fill' the various climate areas with the appropriate colour, while also applying a subtle overlay to the sea zones. Very similar changes would also apply to the topography and vegetation map modes.

The other major concern I have is with the new gfx styles is with the 'sea based' changes. Specifically the over use of 'aggressive' drop-shadows. This can be seen in the locations, trade, and topography map modes. IMO the drop-shadows used to separate land from sea, and different sea 'zones' should use a much lower opacity. At present, these maps appear harsh, almost aggressive in there presentation. I would expect a softer touch here to improve their appearance significantly. My mock-ups below:

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Secondary note: in the same maps mentioned above, it seems as if contrast has been ramped up. This may help in some areas, but on the sea zones - the watercolour / patchwork texture has become much harsher, contributing to the issues described above.
 
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Here we have a new type of topography: Atolls. We added it some months ago, as we worked on finishing the map of the Pacific Ocean, and it will be the last one added to the game.
Sweet, saving the best for last. Looking forward to as much love and granularity as all the tiny germanies which won't be 1-2 lands per wide swath of territory reduced to SoPs awaiting colonization :cool: