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Tinto Maps #20 - 27th of September 2024 - The Steppes

Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.jpg

A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

Tatar Yoke.jpg

We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
Societies of Pops.jpg

Societies of Pops 2.jpg .jpg

A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations Western Siberia.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg

Locations 5.jpg

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg


Areas:
Areas.jpg


Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
Development.jpg

The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg

There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
Religions.jpg

Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

Markets 2.jpg


Population:
Population.jpg

This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
 
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Does this mean no ports on the Aral sea since no map? Combined with no transit around the coast that leads to dead ends where a large infantry army can possibly catch a nomadic horse army. That feels odd.
 
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why isnt the dnieper river (and other important rivers that weve seen in the tinto maps like the rhine) a sea tile? it could be very intresting to play around this area when the dnieper is like a sea tile. also its very wide in some parts of it so shouldnt it be like a sea tile?
 
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Wow. Thank you @Pavía and the whole team for your effort, another portion of beautiful content!
As always, I'm going to try to provide you with a reasonable feedback on the Ukrainian lands.

Firs of all, i want to share a link to the project, where all the known historic maps of Ukraine are gathered in high resolution:
Vkraina Project

Just in case you will find in useful. Just klick on the different years.


COUNTRIES
I have only two remarks:
  • I see no reason to make such a bordergore between Kyiv/Chernihiv, that appendix should belong to the duchy of Chernihiv
  • From the early 14th century till 1410 the city of Bilhorod (Ukr.) / Akkerman (Tur.) (Cetatea Alba location) was a colony of Genoa called Moncastro. I knew it from the history of the town, but here is the link to the source:
The Oxford Dictionary Of Byzantium Vols 1-3, page 212 - ASPROKASTRON article.
View attachment 1194478
So maybe you should split this location into two smaller to reflect this.

View attachment 1194471

LOCATIONS
Obviously, most of the Steppe territory was almost empty without any settlements there, so you had to choose the location names that were founded centuries later after 1337. There could be just some better choices that are shorter, better to read or more correct. Where possible I will add Crimean Tatar names for dynamic naming.
  • Oster instead of Starogorodskaya (a well-known important historic town instead of a small village noone knows about)
  • Lubech instead of Ripky (a well-known important historic town instead of a small village noone knows about)
  • Nizhyn instead of Unenezh (Unenezh was destroyed by the Mongols, then it was Nizhyn, the name relevant for the game time frame)
  • Shostka instead od Seredyna-Buda (shorter name; bigger and much more significant town)
  • Putyvl instead of Buryn (a well-known medieval historic town founded in 1146 instead of a small village founded in the 1660-s)
  • Vorozhba instead of Lypova Dolyna (shorter name, easier to read)
  • Zinkiv instead of ...???... (the location between Poltava and Hadiach, I cannot even read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Aidar instead of Rovenki (those green near Valuyki) (because there are also Rovenky to the south, in Tana province, actually the same name in Ukrainian)
  • Hlobyne instead of ...???... (the location between Kremenchuk and Orzhytsia, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Lozova or Berestyn instead of Krasnohrad (Krasnohrad is a non-relevant communist-era name, now it is Berestyn)
  • Svatove instead of ...???... (the location between Kupiansk and Kreminna, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Starobilsk instead of ...???... (the location between Novoaidar and Novopskov, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Usivka looks too big, can be split into Kamyanka and Usivka
  • Zavallya insted of Zavalye (correct spelling)
  • Zhovti Vody instead of Lykhivka (historically relevant location called 'yellow river', where a famous battle took place, later a settlement appeared with the same name)
  • Lysychi Bayrak instead of Lysychansk (early Cossack settlement, later became Lysychansk; also Tatar name origin)
  • Sokoly instead of Voznesensk (historical Lithuanian castle in the same place, existed early in the game)
  • Balka instead of Nova Odesa ('Odesa' appeared on maps 1793, so 'New Odesa' looks quite weird in 1337 :) )
  • Kichkas instead of Zaporizhia (at that time Zaporizhia is a good name for the whole area, but not the location, Kichkas is now a part of Zaporizhia and a hitoric location where a Lithuanian Castle used to be, also shorter name)
  • Rozdol instead of Berezivka (another settlement with more 'universal' name)
  • Novoazov instead of Shyrokyne (more universal name, there is Novoazovsk town nearby)
  • Domakha instead of Mariupol (early Cossack settlement, later became Mariupol)
  • Vitovtiv (Ukr.) / (Vithold) Hammami (Crimean tatar) instead of Nikolaev (existed there before Mykolaiv, a castle built by Vytautas in the 14th century)
  • Qizi Kermen (Crimean tatar) / Beryslav (Ukrainian, for dynamic naming) instead of Chrevonyi Mayak (strategic fortress built by the Crimeans in the 14th century instead of an unknown village, also shorter name, easy to read)
  • Lepetykha instead of ...???... (the location adjacent to Kyrylivka and Henichesk, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Ochakiv or Dashiv (Ukrainian) / Özü (Crimean Tatar) instead of Ochakov (it's a bit complicated, it was an ancient settlement of Dashiv at that time, than taken by Lithuania and then in 1480 taken by the Crimean Tatars, after that it was called Aci-Kale / Özü (Crimean Tatar). So Ochakiv (Ukr.) / Oczakow (Pol.) / Ochakov (Rus.) appeared later from the Tatar name Aci-Kale. But in 1337 it was still Dashiv
  • Kochubiy (Ukrainian) / Khadjibey (Hacibey) (Turkish, Crimean Tatar) instead of Odesa (actually you also have Khadjibey nearby, but it is an error, Odesa and Khadjibey are the same place, just renamed in 1793. The fortress Kochubiy was founded by the Lithuanians between 1324 and 1415 (Koczubi in all Polish and Latin maps), then captured by the Ottomans and became Hacibey (Khdjibey).
  • Kinburn instead of Holyi Pereviz (important geographical location there, Kinburn peninsula, a fortress guarded the Dnipro estuary from the opposite side of Ochakiv)
  • Tendra instead of Aslan-Horod (Tendra is a peninsula exactly there, and Aslan-Horod is modern Kakhovka, it should be the location to the north)
  • Aslan-Horod (Ukrainian) / Islam-Kermen (Crimean Tatar) instead of ...???... (the location adjacent to Henichesk, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read, more proper location)
  • Or Qapi (Crimean Tatar) / Perekop (all other languages) instead of Kalay (Perekop is a strategic fortress that guarded the only entrance to the Crimea, it is a must)
  • Moncastro instead of Cetatea Alba for 1337 (belongs to Genoa, but Cet. Alba is OK for dynamic name, Bilhorod for Ukrainian dynamic name. Maybe split the location into two)
Also, I propose some easier location names that are based on the local lakes or rivers. I think it is a good option, this way we would have less irrelevant location names of the cities that were founded in the 18th-19th centuries.
And almost all of them have Tatar name origin, so they look natural both for Ukrainian and Tatar namings!
Also in most cases new settlements were actually connected with local geographical features as rivers, lakes, hills etc.
They are blue in the map:
  • Burluk instead of Shevelivka
  • Balakliya instead of Barvinkove
  • Oril instead of Samarchyk
  • Inhulets instead of Petrove
  • Inhul instead of Kropyvnytskyi
  • Torets instead of Slovyansk
  • Luhan instead of Luhansk
  • Byk instead of Oleksandrivka
  • Yaly instead of Pokrovske
  • Bazavluk instead of Sofiivka (actually the Cossacks had the Bazavluk Sich)
  • Kalmius instead of Velyka Novosilka
  • Yelanchyk instead of Vasylivka (that eastern one, this is a must because you have two Vasylivkas!)
  • Haichur instead of Hulyaipole
  • Chortomlyk instead of ...???... (the location adjacent to Kryvyi Rih, also the Cossacks had the Chortomlyk Sich)
  • Bilozerka instead of Velyka Bilozerka (if I can read it correctly, no need to make it so long)
  • Vysun instead of Bereznehuvate
  • Chichikliya / Ciceklia instead of Veselynove (Tatar origin of the river name)
  • Kuyalnyk instead of Khadjibey (your Khadjibey is in the wrong location as I have already mentioned)
  • Tylihul instead of Kominternivske (absolutely non-relevant communist-era name)
  • Berda instead of Berdyansk
  • Utluk instead of Kyrylivka
  • Kalanchak instead of Chaplynka
The map:
View attachment 1194758

I also tried to add some Tatar/Turkish names (in green) for certain places, would be great for dynamic naming. Some of them are also local rivers, like Karachokrak in Vasylivka or Saksahan in Kryvyi Rih.
Maybe if we have Crimean Tatars here or also Turkish guys would know better, feel free to add and correct me, I will update the post.
View attachment 1194759


PROVINCES
Some changes relevant to the location changes:
  • Chernihiv should probably have more provinces than Hlukhiv
  • Nizhyn instead of Ichnia (much more historically important)
  • Putyvl instead of Lypova Dolyna (much more historically important)
  • Lozova instead of Krasnohrad (communist-era names are not relevant for the game)
  • Starobilsk instead of Bielska Sloboda (much more historically important)
  • Luhan instead of Luhansk
  • Kichkas or maybe even Sich (more flavourful) instead of Zaporizhia
  • Bug instead of Ochakiv (important river estuary)
  • Kochubiy / Hacibey / Khadjibey instead of Odesa (much more relevant
  • Budzhak instead of Basarabia (Basarabia is much bigger and foes further to the north, that exact region is called Budzhak)
  • Kalanchak instead of Chaplynka (universal name for all relevant languages)
View attachment 1194773


AREAS
Not much to change here:
  • You have Chernihiv and Chernigov, that is obviously wrong :) Chernigov should be probably Bryansk
  • Chernihiv area can be actually Severia, an exact historic region of Ukraine like Galicia, Podolia, Volhynia
  • East Dnipro instead of East Dnieper (correct Ukrainian spelling for consistency). But we can also pay tribute to the disappeared Duchy of Pereyaslav that had exactly the same borders and call this area Pereyaslav. Both are OK for me
  • Posad is OK, but we can romanise the Ukrainian term for this region and call it Pryazovia (means the territory near the Sea of Azov)
  • Sloboda Ukraine is technically right, but maybe we can use shorter version Sloboda or romanise it Slobodia or use Ukrainian words Slobozhanshyna /Slobidshyna (but it may be too complicated for others :D). All are OK for me
View attachment 1194485


VEGETATION
I have already mentioned it earlier, vegetation of Ukraine shoud be reworked:
View attachment 1194495

Here I will attach my notes from the Ruthenian feedback even with a scientific source:

And just on top of that the map from 1580 (take it as a minor proof:)):
View attachment 1194493


DEVELOPMENT
A couple of questions:
  • Chernihiv, East Dnipro regions should probably have just a bit higher development, like Volhynia. And definitely more than empty Steppes in the south.
  • Why do the Steppes to the east have higher development compared to others?
View attachment 1194496


CULTURE & RELIGION
You already mentioned about culture and religion borders that you will work on it.
My input is that Ruthenian and other local Slavic cultures should be expanded further to the south to Dnipro apids with at least some minor presence. But the overall population numbers should be very low, probably comparable to uncolonised lands.
The same applies to religions.
View attachment 1194772


NATURAL HARBORS
Two corrections needed:View attachment 1194576

Mykolaiv should be upgraded because of Bug estuary and what you have as Aslan-Horod (but better it is called Tendra) should be downgraded.
View attachment 1194497


RAW GOODS
In general I like it, but think that it could be a bit more diverse. Several important notes:
  • Cossack Left bank locations around Lubny, Poltava, Sumy, Hlukhiv - it was a huge saltpeter production region since the early XVI century, mostly ruled by cossack colonels and nobles. They exported a lot of it to Muscovy. Actually as far as I understand, the Cossacks dug the remnants of Kyivan border settlements and fortifications destroyed by the Mongols as well as ancient burial mounds in the steppe, so the saltpeter production was far more efficient than represented by the saltpeter works building in the game. It can be really considered as RGO and represented by at least 1 saltpeter RGO location.
  • Also, the territories of modern-day northern Ukraine (especially Chernihiv, Sumy oblasts) were a known centre for fiber crops production since the Kyivan Rus times till now. So please add several of fiber crops RGO locations there instead of wheat too.
  • Kryvyi Rih must have iron, it has one of the largest iron ore deposits. Even though the big industry was built there in the 19th century, the archaelogical excavations in the 19th and 20th centuries showed that some sorts of metallurgy activities had been present for 2000 years there.
  • Ukraine must have more clay locations, it was massively used for pottery and buildings.
  • Bakhmut and Sloviansk must have salt, these are well-known salt production centres since Cosaack times.
  • Probably you should also expand some wheat to the south to represent later ages when people migrated to the steppes more actively.
Unfortunately, all sources are in Ukrainian only:
I think these changes are quite relevant and would make this region more diverse.
View attachment 1194498

I'd like to thank you once more for your dedication and work and sorry for such a long post. But even now this level is something I could not dream of before.

As long as I have made a major update on locations in my feedback, I'll post it here separately.

Like probably many of you I did not like the fact that a lot of steppe locations are named after the settlements, founded in the 18-20th centuries and had obvious Slavic or even communist names. But I see that the devs had no other choice, this region was almost empty compared to other parts of the World.

One of the solutions I found is to change location names where possible to some small local rivers or other geographical features. Actually, it kind of worked like this in reality.

In the Ukrainian Steppe it worked well I think, because in most cases these river names has Turkic/Tatar origin, so they are natural for both Ukrainian and Crimean Tatar namings. Also they are usuaaly short and simple.
So guys, if you make detailed feedback for other parts of the Horde Steppe, you can use this trick to avoid some modern location names that are really weird in the game.
______________________________________________________

So the updated locations section:

LOCATIONS
Obviously, most of the Steppe territory was almost empty without any settlements there, so you had to choose the location names that were founded centuries later after 1337. There could be just some better choices that are shorter, better to read or more correct.
Where possible I will add Crimean Tatar names for dynamic naming, so you can use them in 1337 at the start:
  • Oster instead of Starogorodskaya (a well-known important historic town instead of a small village noone knows about)
  • Lubech instead of Ripky (a well-known important historic town instead of a small village noone knows about)
  • Nizhyn instead of Unenezh (Unenezh was destroyed by the Mongols, then it was Nizhyn, the name relevant for the game time frame)
  • Putyvl instead of Buryn (a well-known medieval historic town founded in 1146 instead of a small village founded in the 1660-s)
  • Vorozhba instead of Lypova Dolyna (shorter name, easier to read)
  • Zinkiv instead of ...???... (the location between Poltava and Hadiach, I cannot even read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Aidar instead of Rovenki (those green near Valuyki) (because there are also Rovenky to the south, in Tana province, actually the same name in Ukrainian)
  • Hlobyne instead of ...???... (the location between Kremenchuk and Orzhytsia, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Parkhom Bayrak instead of Krasnohrad (Krasnohrad is a non-relevant communist-era name, before there was a cossack settlement called Parkhom Bayrak, also turkic name origin)
  • Svatove instead of ...???... (the location between Kupiansk and Kreminna, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Starobilsk instead of ...???... (the location between Novoaidar and Novopskov, I cannot read it, shorter name, easier to read)
  • Usivka looks too big, can be split into Kamyanka and Usivka
  • Zavallya insted of Zavalye (correct spelling)
  • Zhovti Vody instead of Lykhivka (historically relevant location called 'yellow river', where a famous battle took place, later a settlement appeared with the same name. For Tatar dynamic name you can probably just translate it into Tatar)
  • Kodak insted of Kodaky (Kodaky is a modern-day village, the fortress was called Kodak)
  • Lysychi Bayrak instead of Lysychansk (early Cossack settlement, later became Lysychansk; also Tatar name origin)
  • Sokoly instead of Voznesensk (historical Lithuanian castle in the same place, existed early in the game)
  • Balka instead of Nova Odesa ('Odesa' appeared on maps 1793, so 'New Odesa' looks quite weird in 1337, chose another settlement nearby)
  • Kichkas instead of Zaporizhia (at that time Zaporizhia is a good name for the whole area, but not the location, Kichkas is now a part of Zaporizhia and a historic location where a Lithuanian Castle used to be to control Dnipro, also shorter name)
  • Rozdol instead of Berezivka (another settlement with more 'universal' name)
  • Novoazov (Ukrainian) / Koypa (Crimean tatar) instead of Shyrokyne (more universal name, Novoazovsk town nearby)
  • Domakha (Ukrainian) / Adamakha (Crimean tatar) instead of Mariupol (early original Cossack settlement, much later became Mariupol)
  • Vitovtiv (Ukrainian) / (Vithold) Hammami (Crimean tatar) instead of Nikolaev Mykolaiv (existed there before Mykolaiv, a castle built by Vytautas in the 14th century)
  • Beryslav (Ukrainian) / Qizi Kermen (Crimean tatar) or Esqi-Tavan (Historic Horde cite) instead of Chrevonyi Mayak (strategic fortress built by the Crimeans in the 14th century instead of an unknown village, also shorter name, easy to read)
  • Sirohoz (Ukrainian) / Rohat-Kermen (Crimean Tatar) instead of Velyka Pepetykha (I can barely read it, shorter name of Nyzni/Verkhi Sirohozy there nearby)
  • Tehin instead of Kherson (name of the Lithuanian castle built in the 14th century, later shown as Tehinka on various maps)
  • Dashiv or Ochakiv (Ukrainian) / Özü (Crimean Tatar) instead of Ochakov Ochakiv (it's a bit complicated, it was an ancient settlement of Dashiv at that time, than taken by Lithuania and then in 1480 taken by the Crimean Tatars, after that it was called Aci-Kale and then Özü. So Ochakiv (Ukr.) / Oczakow (Pol.) / Ochakov (Rus.) appeared later from the Tatar name Aci-Kale. But in 1337 it was still Dashiv
  • Kochubiy (Ukrainian) / Khadjibey (Hacibey) (Turkish, Crimean Tatar) instead of Odessa Odesa (actually you also have Khadjibey nearby, but it is an error, Odesa and Khadjibey are the same place, just renamed in 1793. The fortress Kochubiy was founded by the Lithuanians between 1324 and 1415 (Koczubi in all Polish and Latin maps), then captured by the Ottomans and became Hacibey (Khdjibey).
  • Kinburn instead of Holyi Pereviz (important geographical location there, Kinburn peninsula, a fortress guarded the Dnipro estuary from the opposite side of Ochakiv)
  • Tendra (universal) or Dzharilhach / Carılğaç (Crimean Tatar) instead of your Aslan-Horod (Tendra is a peninsula there, Dzharilhach is a big island by the shore; I prefer Tendra more; Aslan-Horod is modern Kakhovka, it should be the location to the north of this)
  • Aslan-Horod (Ukrainian) / Islam-Kermen (Crimean Tatar) instead of your Hornostaivka (If I can read it correctly, to the north of your Aslan-Horod, more proper location)
  • Perekop (Ukrainian) / Or Qapi (Crimean Tatar) instead of Kalay (Perekop is a strategic fortress that guarded the only entrance to the Crimea, it is a must)
  • Moncastro (Italian) / Bilhorod (Ukrainian) / Akkerman (Tatar) instead of Cetatea Alba for 1337 (belongs to Genoa, but Cetatea Alba is OK for Romanian dynamic name)
Also, I propose some easier location names that are based on the local lakes or rivers. I think it is a good option, this way we would have less irrelevant location names of the cities that were founded in the 18th-19th centuries.
And almost all of them have Tatar name origin, so they look natural both for Ukrainian and Tatar namings!
Also in most cases new settlements were actually connected with local geographical features as rivers, lakes, hills etc.
They are blue in the map:
  • Shostka instead of Seredyna-Buda (due to the shorter name, later a town appeared with the same name)
  • Burluk instead of Shevelivka
  • Kupian instead of Kupiansk
  • Bila instead of Kalnivka
  • Derkul instead of Bilovodsk
  • Balakliya instead of Barvinkove
  • Oril instead of Samarchyk
  • Inhulets instead of Petrove
  • Inhul instead of Kropyvnytskyi
  • Torets instead of Slovyansk
  • Samar instead of Pavlohrad (currently the river is called Samara, but there is another Samara in Russia and Samar is the old name of this river, so it fits here perfectly and to distinkt it from Samara)
  • Luhan instead of Luhansk
  • Mius instead of Rovenky
  • Donets instead of Donetsk
  • Byk instead of Oleksandrivka
  • Yaly instead of Pokrovske
  • Bazavluk instead of Sofiivka (actually the Cossacks had the Bazavluk Sich)
  • Kalmius instead of Velyka Novosilka
  • Yelanchyk instead of Vasylivka (that eastern one, this is a must because you have two Vasylivkas!)
  • Haichur instead of Hulyaipole
  • Chortomlyk instead of ...???... (the location adjacent to Kryvyi Rih, also the Cossacks had the Chortomlyk Sich)
  • Bilozerka instead of Velyka Bilozerka (if I can read it correctly, no need to make it so long)
  • Vysun instead of Bereznehuvate
  • Chichikliya / Ciceklia instead of Veselynove (Tatar origin of the river name)
  • Kuyalnyk instead of Khadjibey (your Khadjibey is in the wrong location as I have already mentioned)
  • Tylihul instead of Kominternivske (absolutely non-relevant communist-era name)
  • Berda instead of Berdyansk
  • Utluk instead of Kyrylivka
  • Kalanchak instead of Chaplynka
The map:
Locations.png


I also tried to add someoriginal Tatar/Turkish names (green text in the map) for certain places, so these should be used for 1337.

Firstly, the known Horde cities of the mid-14th century, based on archaelogical excavations, I highlighted them with the green circles. It is important to note, that the existence of these towns in the area is well-known from the cronicles, but it is hard to locate exactly which big archaelogical site belongs to which town, so here are the most probable assumptions. These should be at least towns with higher population and some development:
  • Yangi-Shehr near modern-day Orhei
  • Yedi Cami to the east of modern-day Vasylivka
  • Esqi-Tavan (Crimean name Qizi-Kermen) in the modern-day Beryslav (this was a strategic Dnipro river crossing called Tavan)
  • Yabu in the modern-day Torhovytsia
Here for example is a ~1360 map (before the Lithuanias took these lands). In [these brackets] some biggest archaelogical sites with Horde-era settlements are shown:
Town map.png

It is clear, that poplulation was more concentrated along the main rivers.

I also used local rivers with Turkic names:
  • Igren in Rozdory, both good for dynamic naming. Excavations showed some settlement near strategic Dnipro crossing there too
  • Saksahan in Kryvyi Rih, both good for dynamic naming
Also as far as I know:
  • Melitopol in Crimean Khanate was Qizilyar / Qizil-Yar, both good for dynamic naming
  • Henichesk in Crimean Khanate was Ğeniç, both good for dynamic naming
Other names mentioned in the map can be also used for Crimean Tatar (I mean those in blue and red fonts) if there is no better option, they are definitely better then Kyrylivka, Oleksandrivka or Voznesensk etc.
Locations CrT.png


Maybe if we have Crimean Tatars here or also Turkish guys would know it better, feel free to add other locations or correct me, I will update the post!

Separately about Crimea:
  • Looks like the map ignored one of the biggest cities of the Golden Horde - Solkhat. Its population was around 20 000 people. And this is one of the very few Horde cities, that still exists now (Esqi Qirim, Stary Krym). You need to add this location
  • It is better to have Qarasuvbazar instead of Aqmescit. and Aqmecit instead of Aq-Mechet. Firstly, Qarasuvbazar was far older, bigger and more important at that time. Secondly, Ak-Mechet is a russified name of Aqmecit, that is actually the same as Aqmescit. Both locations have the same name and meaning 'White Mosque'.
Locations.png


P.S. It was also funny to note that everywhere you have correct modern namings based on Ukrainian spelling, but 4 adjacent locations by the Black Sea – Odesa-Kominternivske-Ochakiv-Mykolaiv are probably old in the database :D But Nova Odesa to the North is correct with one 's' :)
 
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According to Ibn Battuta in the 2/4rd of 14C, Sarai had water supply, mosque, hostel for merchants, muslim madrasah, and palace for kings and queens as like a typical Middle Eastern city. Sarai was also home to a permanent metropolitan bureaucracy class. However, the Mongolian capitol declined due to the plague, and more importantly, Timur, but these happened well after the start of the game. Maybe Sarai deserves a bit more development in1337?
 
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Great work and exciting news. However I'd like to say something, Please don't make the Golden Horde as a "Horde" again. It's a state ruled by a king who resides in palace within the walls of the great city of Sarai, not living in a tent on the grassland! And although the Golden Horde has been largely Turkicized by the year of 1337, the official language and the court language should still be "Mongol" instead of the so called "Mishary". As ibn Battuta mentioned in his book the "Mughals" do comprise a major portion of the city of Sarai, and perhaps its surronding areas too.
I know that Golden Horde is basically an independent state by the year 1337, but officially it still remains to be a subsidiary of the Great Mongol Empire, and still maintains contacts with other mongol states and the great emperor in Beijing, the contact letters was written in Mongols not Mishary. The area only became completely Turkicized after the collapse of Golden Horde around 1360s.
 
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I would personally prefer that the game use the word "Ulus" instead of "Horde". Please don't use the word "Khanate", it's a Russian exonym. "Ulus" is the actual word used by central asian states to refer to themselves. This should become obvious if you have done a lot of reading on the topic. The Golden Horde being called that should be an exception, personally I would rename it to the "Jochi Ulus", but I can see the argument that "Golden Horde" is such a well-known name that it will be kept. But for example, I would like to see "Chagatai Ulus".
 
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Wow. Finely Paradox GSG have my home town name as location. It is Belaya Kalitva, but may I give you a my suggestion for naming?

Belaya Kalitva is a modern name. It’s using since 1950s. But the settlement was established in 1703 by the decree of Peter the Great. It was cossack settlement, named – Ust-Belokalitvinskaya. I understand, that name has much worse spelling. But also more historically correct. Ust-Belokalitvinskaya – first known name for this location.

And another suggestion for Shakhty location. It’s also a name from the XX century. I suppose it will be better to use previous name of this coal location – Grushevskiy.
 
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About Aral and Central Asia.
in the 14th century the hydrography of the region was different.
the Amurdarya River flowed into the Caspian Sea
and until the 16th century the Aral Sea did not exist as a single entity.
 
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I'd like to better understand why some of the lands bordering the Caspian and Aral sea's are impassible terrain. I'm not implying it's wrong, just strikes me as odd that the terrain next to water sources like that are so inhospitable you couldn't even march an army past them?
 
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Hi!

Thanks for your work. I couldnt say anything about of locations (there is too many. im too lazy)

I have some huge advises on areas and provinces in Ukrainian steppe region.
From North border changes (Maps as sources would be listed below)
You have two areas Chernigov and Chernihiv, thats just russian and ukrainian spelling of city name. Moreover there is no Chernihiv in Chernigov area at all
I propose to unite this areas into one called Severia (made mistake on map and named it Chernihiv)

Almost completely move Sloboda Ukraine to actual Sloboda Ukraine region IRL.
Sloboda is a concept created by ruthenians who migrated to uninhabitet terriroties of Muscovy south of Belgorod Cherta (Belgorod Line). They brough Cossack traditions and institutes and created "Hetmanate without Hetman" so there is polky(regiments ) just like in Hetmanate but they are not united in singular entity and each regiment/polk (locations) make separate agreement with Tsar

Leftover from fake Sloboda Ukraine could be made into Belgorod or Cherta area (Cherta was fortified border between Muscovy and tatars and later Muscovy/Cherta/Sloboda Ukraine/Tatars)

Renaming
Ukraine better be united to Right Bank (thats how region was called mostly during timeframe, and even now) Ukraine as name was more fluid and it usually covered more territories so its a bid odd as a area name.
East Dnieper in this matter would be Left Bank.
Speaking about Left Bank, idk your intentions about areas but if you are okay with big areas you could unite left bank and severia easily,
Matrega - Kuban, again most used name of the area

ONE correction about Provinces borders would be Trubchevsk province. During most timeframe this territories would be Starodub polk(regiment) as a part of Cossack Hetmanate and even after dissolving of Hetmanate it would remaing as a border of regions inside Russian empire without Trubchevsk. So area Starodub - one location.

Areas.jpg


Overall map of Cossack entities at 18 century,
Blue Hetmanate
Yellow Zaporozhian Host
Green Sloboda polks (regiments)
1727551444799.png

Zaporizhzhia region almost correspond with Zaporozhian Host (From whom this name was taken) I used more later map here
1727551981435.png

and Sloboda Ukraine polks
1727552152492.png


Most maps im giving are from 17-18 centuries. Why? Because borders moved rather slightly since then, or whole areas as a concept wasnt a thing (Sloboda) For example borders of Zaporozhian host from 16 century to 18 only added a couple of locations. The reasons are STEPPES controled by different Tatar Hordes. most notable Crimean. Territory was dangerous so steppe for a long time was wast and uncolonised. But with more later area borders it gaves a felling of completing it.

And lastly want to remind you about important corrections proposed on western Ruthenia by me through this link

Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback



THANK YOU!

p.s about Posad area. in this case it would be better to give leftover to Azov, more accurate
 
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I'd like to better understand why some of the lands bordering the Caspian and Aral sea's are impassible terrain. I'm not implying it's wrong, just strikes me as odd that the terrain next to water sources like that are so inhospitable you couldn't even march an army past them?
As someone who worked on a proposal to fill some areas of the eastern Caspian and is currently trying to do the same for the Aral, it’s probably the extreme paucity of sources.

Once you make the design decision to have the area be strips of non-wasteland running through wasteland you have to find sources for habitation in the roughly right period, and for land that didn’t “matter” that can be quite difficult. Especially because many of the settlements in the area were founded by the Russians post-game time and you have to dig past those.

Add the fact that most of these are off the beaten path and in low-density areas and it’s likely some of them were in fact barely inhabited or only sometimes inhabited or even mostly uninhabited. When population density is quite low and you’re not right on a trade route and the land isn’t all that rich it’s easy to some extent to live in the more habitable places and avoid the worse ones.

You could make the alternate design decision to only put wasteland where you can verify it’s impossible to travel. That would probably represent nomads and small villages better but would be a worse representation of settled states, at least in some cases.

It’s not impossible to put locations there but it can take a lot of work doing research to place a couple of locations, and that’s when the goal is specifically to place locations there. When you’re filling in the entire region and nothing is mentioned in an area, because the major overview sources themselves ignore the area, it’d be very easy to move on and leave it empty.
 
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First off, Mishary strikes me as weird. It should be either Mishar or Mishari. Secondly, here are some era and area relevant maps that I want to talk about before getting into my sources.
1000068676.jpg

1000068677.jpg

These two maps relate to the distribution of Yeniseic people and languages. Yeniseians have been in a process of being replaced for a long time, so I would argue the map below is more relevant for the fourteenth century than the map above. Primarily centered around and entirely covering the banks of Yenisei, they should reach Angara to the east and Ob' and Irtysh to the west. Subcultures like Ket, Assan, Arin, Yugh and Pumpokol are probably way too granular and small, but I think a general Yeniseian/Ket (It means person in their language, Soviet era invented endonym. Were formerly called Yenisei Ostyaks and still called themselves Ostyghanna in their own language until recent times. Kanden, meaning people of the light, is an option since it is a traditional endonym.) culture is well deserved, as they are the descendants of the Jie (Old Chinese Kjet) from the Chinese annals and probably played a rule in the formation of Xiongnu according to Vovin. They also constitute one half of the only tangible linguistic linkage between Siberians and Native Americans. Extremely interesting culture, but probably not deserving of a SoP according to your standards.
1000068703.jpg

This is a more general map from Routledge book on Northern Asia. It shows the Selkup pocket and the Sayan Samoyed area pretty well, but it will be more relevant in the Siberia Tinto Maps.
1000068705.jpg

This is a map of the distribution of Samoyeds, showing location of Kamas and Mator Samoyeds to the east of Yenisei. It also shows the borders between Enets, Nenets, Nganasan and Selkup pretty well, as well as their internal divisions which should be less relevant in 1337 probably.
1000068747.jpg

Another map of the Yeniseians and surrounding peoples. This one also shows the location of the Kamas, Koibal and Mator Samoyeds pretty well, as well as the boundaries of Khanty settlement.
1000069048.jpg

1000069054.jpg

1000069053.jpg

Three general, era appropriate maps of Siberia. The top one is notable for showing the limits of Yeniseian settlement in Irtysh and Ob, also useful for the boundaries of Kyrgyz, Nogai and the Oirats. Also shows where Baraba and Chulym live. The middle one is honestly not that good for anything. The bottom one is a very good map, showing most tribal subdivisions.

Now, onto my sources.

The Languages and Linguistics of Northern Asia edited by Hans Henrich Hock, published by Routledge Publication

Quite the gargantuan book really. I rely on it a lot. It's also the source of all the colorful maps. Of course it will be more relevant in Siberia Tinto Maps, but let me post some takeaways still.
  1. Crimea should have Karaims and Krymchaks, the first of which are Karaite Jews whereas the second are Rabbinic. Both had their own languages, and Karaim later migrated to Galicia-Volhynia and Lithuania.
  2. The book refers to Mishar Tatars as Mishär which makes more sense as it is befitting to Turkic vowel harmony. It also names a dialect called Teptär spoken in Orenburg, Perm and Bashkortostan.
  3. South Altai people (Oyrots, subdivided into Teleuts and Telengits) are related closer to the Kyrgyz than to North Altai, as they are Kypchak and descendant of the Yenisei Kyrgyz. The North Altai are Siberian Turkic.
  4. North Altai contains Tubalar, Kumandyn and Chelkan, the latter two should be Samoyed speaking back then.
  5. Chulym are Turkicized Kets and Selkups, and might or might not exist in 1337. Barabas and Siberian Tatars speak a language more related to Siberian than to Kypchak but they have been under Tatar influence.
  6. Khakass is just a Russian rendition of the Chinese word for Kyrgyz, should probably be renamed into something else or united with South Altai to form a Yenisei Kyrgyz culture. Notable dialects include Sagay and Kyzyl. One dialect, Koybal, is spoken by the Turkicized Kamas Samoyeds and should not exist back then.
  7. Mator and Karagas are the same Samoyedic group that today speak Tofalar, a Turkic language derived from Tuvan. Should be Samoyedic back then.
  8. Enets used to be much more south, around where Taz Selkup is today. There was also Yurats, a transitionary form between Enets and Nenets, spoken in lower reaches of Taz and Yenisei in southern Gydan Peninsula.
  9. Edward Vajda states in this book that the Yeniseian area used to be larger than it was when the Russians found them, reaching from Baikal to Irtysh.
The Gradual Disappearance of a Eurasian Language Family – the Case of Yenissey by Stefan Georg Leiden

Short but the interesting article, mentioning how the word Tengri has Yeniseian origins. It also talks about how Siberians like Selkup, Khanty, Mansi, Ket and Evenki died en masse to imported European diseases much like Native Americans, which is interesting to me. It also mentions the Yeniseian family used to be smaller in the south, their current northern area being Selkup territory back then.

The Samoyed Peoples and Languages by Péter Hajdú

A very old book, nevertheless still useful. Talks about reindeer breeding among Samoyeds, their subdivisions and distribution history concisely. Also explains the fundamentals of their heavily shamanistic religion centered around the supreme god Num/Nom and his son, the god of death Nga/Ngua.

I will probably look up more sources on the Turkic groups of Siberia, but this is all I have right now, hope it is helpful.
 
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Great work and exciting news. However I'd like to say something, Please don't make the Golden Horde as a "Horde" again. It's a state ruled by a king who resides in palace within the walls of the great city of Sarai, not living in a tent on the grassland! And although the Golden Horde has been largely Turkicized by the year of 1337, the official language and the court language should still be "Mongol" instead of the so called "Mishary". As ibn Battuta mentioned in his book the "Mughals" do comprise a major portion of the city of Sarai, and perhaps its surronding areas too.
I know that Golden Horde is basically an independent state by the year 1337, but officially it still remains to be a subsidiary of the Great Mongol Empire, and still maintains contacts with other mongol states and the great emperor in Beijing, the contact letters was written in Mongols not Mishary. The area only became completely Turkicized after the collapse of Golden Horde around 1360s.
Only 3,000 families moved to the territory of the Golden Horde with Batu Khan.
The Golden Horde very quickly became a Kipchak state.
Many people from Iran and Central Asia, as well as Russians, lived in the cities.
By 1337, only the dynasty remained from the Mongols.
 
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